If you want more people in Open, the best way to accomplish it are QOL features to make Open more desirable.

Theres an enormous BGS and Powerplay infrastructure which runs contrary to that. Whether you consciously chose to meet other commanders or not, its a living galaxy populated by other players.
That's more akin to to kids playing different games in the same sandbox rather than two kids playing in the sandbox together. Yes the two kids affect each other, but its heavily mediated and the rails are pretty tight.

Frontier backed away from that design at the begging - I agree carriers should have always been about group play but for some reason, Frontier backed away from it - stupid decision if you ask me and directly responsible for the plague of carriers in the game today.
No reason they can't implement both-and.
 
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While I do think that special self-imposed challenges can be fun
Exactly my words. Propagating self-induced challenges is something I would expect from the developers as a cheap excuse for their weak design - but never from the players themselves. I find that almost embarrassing.
It must be terrible to consider not building so well that nothing in the game, bar other players, can present a challenge, that would be the height of boredom for me.

Feel sorry or embarrased about me, but answer one little question -Given that our flying skills are at least slightly above average, which of us is likely to get the most enjoyment from the game that doesn't scale beyond the challenge of ATR, Spec Ops or Thargoids, one who chooses to play as I do, or yourselves in your virtually invulnerable ships?

I believe I know the true answer 🤷‍♂️
 
Which, noting that all players are not at the same level of skill or vessel outfitting / engineering, is probably why the PvE that offers the greatest challenge is, effectively, opt-in - as there's no discrete difficulty setting in the game.

Which would be relevant for most games, except that in Elite's case it allows a player to regulate their difficulty by their own in-game choices (as in, optimising based on desired reward vs difficulty rather than making deliberately poor decisions).

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, there's so many tools players can use to choose to have an easier game and more that could be implemented fairly trivially (such as pirate aggressiveness scaling based on cargo value, which would have the extra balancing effect of making more cargo types viable to trade). Bounty hunting at nav-beacons rather than HAZRESs, trading exclusively low-value goods between high-security systems, only taking on low-ranked missions, avoiding high rating signal sources, to name a few.

To reiterate. Players have a choice based on their activity (whether location-depending or mission rank-depending) as to whether they want to play the easy game but miss out on high-end rewards or seek more challenge and receive more rewards. The problem is that the hardest the game offers is medium difficulty at best; we are left with a difficulty selection between "newbie tutorial", "very easy", "easy" and "medium" that has left the allegedly above-average players high and dry.

Selecting an Elite-rank mission or jumping into a HI CZ is opting into the hardest difficulty for a brief while. It might not have a fancy menu option, but it still is the player asking "yes please, give me the hardest you have got".
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Which would be relevant for most games, except that in Elite's case it allows a player to regulate their difficulty by their own in-game choices (as in, optimising based on desired reward vs difficulty rather than making deliberately poor decisions).
Which reads as if risk minimisation is the only sensible option and any lack of perceived challenge won't be considered to be something that the player effectively did to themself by equipping OP gear.

It'd be interesting if reward was actually linked to risk, i.e. two players carrying out exactly the same activity in the same place would receive differing payouts based on how little risk they undertook (based on ship and equipment / engineering selection).
As I pointed out earlier in this thread, there's so many tools players can use to choose to have an easier game and more that could be implemented fairly trivially (such as pirate aggressiveness scaling based on cargo value, which would have the extra balancing effect of making more cargo types viable to trade).

Bounty hunting at nav-beacons rather than HAZRESs, trading exclusively low-value goods between high-security systems, only taking on low-ranked missions, avoiding high rating signal sources, to name a few.

To reiterate. Players have a choice based on their activity (whether location-depending or mission rank-depending) as to whether they want to play the easy game but miss out on high-end rewards or seek more challenge and receive more rewards. The problem is that the hardest the game offers is medium difficulty at best; we are left with a difficulty selection between "newbie tutorial", "very easy", "easy" and "medium" that has left the allegedly above-average players high and dry.

Selecting an Elite-rank mission or jumping into a HI CZ is opting into the hardest difficulty for a brief while. It might not have a fancy menu option, but it still is the player asking "yes please, give me the hardest you have got".
Half of players are at or below median skill - and while Frontier have offered increased challenge in optional encounters over the years, e.g. AX combat as one example, they don't force anyone to engage in it, it remains the choice of each player. It's pretty much a given that some players won't be satisfied with the upper limits - and I'd expect there are relatively few of them, which may well make the Dev time investment justification (in relation to adding even more challenging scenarios) more challenging.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see more challenging opt-in scenarios added - but don't see the justification for making the game more difficult for all players to suit a subset.
 
Which reads as if risk minimisation is the only sensible option and any lack of perceived challenge won't be considered to be something that the player effectively did to themself by equipping OP gear.

It'd be interesting if reward was actually linked to risk, i.e. two players carrying out exactly the same activity in the same place would receive differing payouts based on how little risk they undertook (based on ship and equipment / engineering selection).

I can speak of my own experiences, if I am out to complete a bunch of Massacre missions, I bring out my Corvette, if I am just out to mess around and try stuff with my friends, we set out to try things with various variants of our ships, like how have tried to tackle Wing Assassinate mission in 3 Keelbacks! we need to practice a bit more on that one.. or when we set out to go pirate hunting in only side winders.

I would love to see some sort of risk bonus, as that would give us a better motivation to push for using weaker ships. but I see some challenges in implementing this with wing missions. as today we complete massacre wing mission "solo", ie not sharing those, and we wing up and then we shoot the same targets, and we all get accounted for the kill and we share when turn these mission in.

Half of players are at or below median skill - and while Frontier have offered increased challenge in optional encounters over the years, e.g. AX combat as one example, they don't force anyone to engage in it, it remains the choice of each player. It's pretty much a given that some players won't be satisfied with the upper limits - and I'd expect there are relatively few of them, which may well make the Dev time investment justification (in relation to adding even more challenging scenarios) more challenging.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see more challenging opt-in scenarios added - but don't see the justification for making the game more difficult for all players to suit a subset.

I do believe that it is more than half the players. And most of those players spending alot of time in a game, tend to connect with other players who do the same, and often we get a really warped idea on how much more time we spend on the game compared to the average players. So we are a terrible base to set base difficulty level after, as what we can do is often quite alot more than the average player, we can spend all the time to engineer every ship, we use, just because we can and have time, and as we play so much more, we are most of the time much more experienced, and thus have learned todo alot things automatically, one of our lesser active player came back to Elite recently and he had forgot most of the things to play in a wing, and that is when it hit me, how much we now took for granted, that we all new again for our returning friend.

But I do agree that having more options to increase risk would be great for players like me, as that would allow us to have a lower base difficulty that is still challenging to most players.
 
I do believe that it is more than half the players.

He used the term "median". The term describes the dividing line between one half and the other. So for any number of players (as long as the game has more than one player), it means that half of the players are at or above the median, while the other half is at or below it. (And the "at" merely is to account for an odd number of players. )

That being said, i agree on your notion, that the forums here are not the best measuring stick. People here are generally very dedicataed and active. Among the players here, i rate myself as "average at best" pilot. Which probably still is very optimistic. When playing with some friends, who re-discovered the game around X-mas and also now play once every few weeks, i am basically a piloting god among them. Only when you sometimes play with real beginners, you realize how much your experience really helps you.
 
What has changed for me though is my attitude towards the ability to set different difficulty levels. Something I still don't want to see in an MMO, as I think it's simply impossible. But in a single player game I really appreciate the value now. So you can start low, depending on your knowledge/skills, and then, assuming the game has a high replay value (which is admittedly rare in single player games, especially heavily story-based ones), these settings are a great tool to keep you hooked even after hundreds of hours.

An MMO has to achieve this through different regions, for example, but I'm not really convinced by ED's consistent opt-in policy, implemented with almost religious zeal. Probably a matter of taste...
there have been some MMO's games that have adopted a dynamic scaling of players powers, so that all players get scaled to to the regions difficulty settings, so new players can roam around as they wish. sure only have unlocked the basic combat skills etc makes it harder, and not tot mention that they also probably is lacking the game experience on how things works, so they still will play out the starter regions and but they can team with their friend that know the game and they tag along and do their best.

but I doubt this will work in Elite as the way we build our power, etc, is not follwing the normal norm in most MMO's, there no ship XP, that unlocks new features, we unlock engineers and hen add power/capabilities to our ships. how do we autoscale that part without a major headache? And Elite have these opt-in mechanics that sort of adjusts the difficulty scale, our signal sources, but sadly, they are to limited, today they try to cater to most players, with their threat level. going 0 to 6 or so (do not know the Xeno max level), and my experience is the average players struggle at 3, where I can do 5 solo. and if we are in a wing of , average players can deal with 4 and we have no problem with 6 and seeking more challenge.

I read some interessting from a Thargoid hunting player, that they spent spend hours trying to get those rare Thargoid interdictions with more big Thargoids ships to up the challenge, but these never spawn as signal sources... that is sad, players spending hours looking for get some challenges...


So I am thinking that what if wee simple upped the threat level of signal sources to that these went to 10 and beyond?


And I miss those old threat 0 signal source with couple of gold canisters in the space, that then turned into an ambush by pirates.. visit them once and get blown up, you hopefully learned, visit them again and get blown up, you have obviously not connected the dots yet... it took me two tries, to learn that threat 0, Gold canister, RUN was the correct action, and not be greedy and try to scoop these up, was before collector limpets... I wish we had more of these things in the game. perhaps not as harsh and unforgiving as this was to most players.
 
And I miss those old threat 0 signal source with couple of gold canisters in the space, that then turned into an ambush by pirates.. visit them once and get blown up, you hopefully learned, visit them again and get blown up, you have obviously not connected the dots yet... it took me two tries, to learn that threat 0, Gold canister, RUN was the correct action, and not be greedy and try to scoop these up, was before collector limpets... I wish we had more of these things in the game. perhaps not as harsh and unforgiving as this was to most players.

NPC ganking, yeah I remember those, lesson was that sometimes deals are too good to be true :D
 
An MMO has to achieve this through different regions, for example, but I'm not really convinced by ED's consistent opt-in policy, implemented with almost religious zeal. Probably a matter of taste...
I'm all for soft opt-ins rather than POIs. "Regions" are an example of this. Pledges, and political actions are others. At the moment though non-POI soft opt-in only applies to PvP, and the threat level is binary between near-zero and <insert large number>, based on the system you're in and being in open. Thargoid attack systems having extremely high threat signal sources but no actual threat on passing through, for instance, runs totally contrary to the system being under Thargoid attack. But no, that trail just refuses to blaze itself mostly, no matter how hard you antagonise it, you just have to go in, be a total asp, and poke things with a stick.
 
Which reads as if risk minimisation is the only sensible option and any lack of perceived challenge won't be considered to be something that the player effectively did to themself by equipping OP gear.

It'd be interesting if reward was actually linked to risk, i.e. two players carrying out exactly the same activity in the same place would receive differing payouts based on how little risk they undertook (based on ship and equipment / engineering selection).

Half of players are at or below median skill - and while Frontier have offered increased challenge in optional encounters over the years, e.g. AX combat as one example, they don't force anyone to engage in it, it remains the choice of each player. It's pretty much a given that some players won't be satisfied with the upper limits - and I'd expect there are relatively few of them, which may well make the Dev time investment justification (in relation to adding even more challenging scenarios) more challenging.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see more challenging opt-in scenarios added - but don't see the justification for making the game more difficult for all players to suit a subset.

I fundamentally disagree with factions offering different rewards based on how ill-equipped the player is. It punishes those that bother to improve their equipment as well as being plain illogical - why would someone pay more for someone to dig a hole with a spoon rather than a shovel? Players equipping themselves properly should be the norm when they want to get stuff done, not a difficulty slider. Overcoming "Risk" should be taking on a difficult mission and overcoming it through a combination of skill and preparation, not "drinking 8 pints of beer before loading up the game and wondering why the game is so hard".

The point that I am making is that the very act of entering into a dangerous environment or taking on a high-rank mission is the opt-into difficulty that you are talking about. Yes, Thargoids are opt-in, just like how taking on high-ranked missions, dropping into a HI CZ or visiting anarchy systems is. By taking on an Elite ranked mission you are literally asking for the game to give you its greatest possible challenge. As I pointed out before, I also believe that carrying high-value cargo should also be treated as opting-in to higher difficulty engagements; this would allow traders and couriers to further regulate their difficulty by careful choice of cargo. There's even filters on the galactic map for those that want to restrict their travels to high-security systems and don't want to accidentally wander into lower security space!

I'm fully aware that half of players are below median skill, but the problem is that the highest difficulty content is balanced around the average player with some reasonable kit, rather than balancing the middle difficulties around the average player. They have shoehorned 100% of the game's available difficulty scale to support 50% of the player base, leaving the other 50% out of the loop.

To be honest, the fix I would suggest for missions is quite simple: condense existing missions and squash them down into roughly the Master and below ranks (so the current Elite rank missions would be the new Master rank missions), then scale up the difficulty for the Dangerous, Deadly and Elite missions. It's reasonable to assume that someone attempting these missions is highly equipped, so they could quite easily be balanced around Big 3 users in say, the top 25%, 10% and 1% skill brackets respectively. Obviously, the rewards for these higher ranks would be improved to provide a mechanical incentive for players to attempt these challenges and so encouraging higher risk. Similar things for general system security levels, RESs and CZs, although in their case they might need new ones adding as there isn't much leeway if you are only dealing with a few different difficulty settings. This isn't about taking options away from players, players who aren't confident could still do everything that they currently do as long as they are careful about where they do it and what work they take on, it's about partitioning off a little bit of the playground for those that actually want to stretch their legs a bit.

And in-part, I feel like Elite's strong aversion to difficulty very much contributes to the grindyness of it all, as everything is locked behind grind rather than challenge. There's very little incentive to get better at the game and work towards challenge based goals as they don't really do anything in the game. There's always more stuff to do in the game but once you hit the endgame there's very little challenge unless you shoot yourself in the foot prior to attempting the challenge. Even the few remaining challenging things (soloing wing assassination missions and larger Thargoids) don't provide any real in-game reward compared to attempting the easier tasks and so mechanically reward the grind rather than the challenge. It's also why so many people resort to PvP and continually want fresh meat to gank, the game isn't providing them with the desired challenge and so they turn to other players to be their "content".

Among the players here, i rate myself as "average at best" pilot. Which probably still is very optimistic. When playing with some friends, who re-discovered the game around X-mas and also now play once every few weeks, i am basically a piloting god among them. Only when you sometimes play with real beginners, you realize how much your experience really helps you.

And yet, these " real beginners" you were playing with, how many of them would regularly be seeing rebuys if you sent them into a HAZRES or CNB with a fully engineered Cutter? While I know full well that players who are very new to the game are faced with a steep learning curve, I find it hard to believe that anyone with 100+ hours of flight time could be so very vulnerable.
 
And yet, these " real beginners" you were playing with, how many of them would regularly be seeing rebuys if you sent them into a HAZRES or CNB with a fully engineered Cutter? While I know full well that players who are very new to the game are faced with a steep learning curve, I find it hard to believe that anyone with 100+ hours of flight time could be so very vulnerable.

Well Engineers seem to limit their services to Pilot federation members, what ever others have should be just what is available on free market.
 
And yet, these " real beginners" you were playing with, how many of them would regularly be seeing rebuys if you sent them into a HAZRES or CNB with a fully engineered Cutter? While I know full well that players who are very new to the game are faced with a steep learning curve, I find it hard to believe that anyone with 100+ hours of flight time could be so very vulnerable.

It might boggle your mind, but for example one of them just recently moved from a completely non-engineered vulture to a completely non-engineered imperial clipper. (Yea, look it up: Clipper. Not Cutter. ) Do you plan to teleport a fully engineered cutter to their accounts?

If not, i don't really get the value of your comment here. My mere statement is that i currently find the restoration beam to be a useful instrument in a PvE environment and i would hate if it was nerfed into oblivion due to PvP concerns. At the same time i don't go around and try to paint others point of view as worthless. I understand that the effect is a problem in the PvP world and have given suggestions on how to help the matter without breaking the PvE aspect.
 
I can’t afford to be wasting money on things like Xbox Live at the moment and I disagree with being forced to pay a subscription fee just for the occasional player interaction in principle when PC players generally get it at no extra cost.

Play console games, win console prizes ;)

A lot of online games charge a subscription fee just to play them (thank god ED doesn’t!)

If ED had a meager subscription we would likely have faaaaar more content, working multicrew, stable and snappy server connections, bug fixes, etc. Lack of subscription is, imo, the single worst decision made regarding ED. It's why FD is duct taping a FPS on now instead of expanding on ship gameplay; there are only so many space flight sim enthusiasts and they aren't a large market relatively speaking. ED is bound to either cut development short or tack on more popular game styles. Add on the fact that the game is gonna be unplayable once they pull the plug. I look forward to ED being a memory that can't be revisited. Good times. Good decision. (y)
 
My biggest problem with open is people being overly PvP aggressive, when the other person is doing something else. Some games let you set a PvP flag on or off, opening themselves up to PvP combat. When I first started playing, I didn't know not to play in open. I lost one of my first ships immediately after lifting off from an engineer station. Not flying later on, literally just after I lifted off, before I had even brought the gear up. Back then, I was in some little ship that had no chance of surviving even a stiff breeze, much less an attack from an engineered Anaconda or Corvette.

Some of those games make the PvP flag stay sticky for a period. Like, you'll still be flagged for 20 minutes or an hour after you turn it off. That way, you can't just flip the flag off and say "Nope, I almost killed you, but you can't shoot back." But that doesn't keep them from combat logging, which they still do when it risks them having to pay a rebuy.

The people I encountered like that weren't in for fair play either. They'd happily blast away at a cargo ship, but hid or logged out when I returned in a combat ship. They just wanted the easy kill, to grief others. They didn't want to pay the rebuy on their expensive ship.

I only go to open to PvP. I don't consider mining, trading, or anything else in open. Someone will come along in a strictly combat ship, and take you down. I only fly combat ships in open, and wait for someone to try me. If I'm anywhere even remotely frequented, someone will try to drag me into combat.

tl;dr, too many d1cks, wanting to ruin gameplay for everyone else. Give players a way not to get forced into PvP combat.
 
It might boggle your mind, but for example one of them just recently moved from a completely non-engineered vulture to a completely non-engineered imperial clipper. (Yea, look it up: Clipper. Not Cutter. ) Do you plan to teleport a fully engineered cutter to their accounts?

That's fair enough if they are actually new players starting out, my concern with your original post was that your reference to newbies was simply hyperbole rather than actually referring to players new to the game. There's a big difference between calling an average player a beginner vs calling someone who is still getting to grips with core content a beginner; the former being unwelcome elitism and the latter pointing out that someone might need a helping hand.

Apologies on my part for misunderstanding your earlier post. The message I interpreted it as was something along the lines of "a few veteran friends of mine decided to come back and dust off their G5 Anacondas for a bit. Man, they were pretty rusty, practically just like a newbie", which is now clearly not what you were actually trying to convey.
 
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PvP flags for systems with security would do wonders.
That would be great. It'd solve just about all the problems for traders. There's plenty of mining in safe systems. Anarchy systems are well marked enough to know they're dangerous to navigate.

PvP players could easily gank and fight each other until their hearts are content in those systems. With fleet carriers, they don't even need to fly out to a station to repair and reload.
 
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