If you want players to play in Open Play you need to consider this.

[5m4llP0X]

However, I hav to vehemently disagree with "Open is infested with toxic players". I have played the last 3 years in open and I can still count the number of times people have attempted to gank me on one hand. Recently, I started a new character and still have yet to see someone attempt to gank me in open (no one would have known who I was). My experience is clearly different from yours.

I can't change your mind, nor am I going to waste my time attempting to. However, I will say that if you don't want to learn how to avoid or deal with the bad stuff that multiplayer brings, then please be happy in Solo or PG, and let us be happy dealing with the dangers and risk of Open. I can say a lot more and pick things apart, but that would not add to the conversation and only adds to everyone's own personal echo chamber. Thinking of solutions does.

When you paint anything with a wide brush, you risk becoming as toxic as the people you complain about.

I got this game during the X-mas steam sale. Maybe the trolls were just hovering around Asellus Primus area, but the multiple times I died because trolls thought it was funny to blow up the guy in a sidewinder and kill my cargo shaped my opinion. Then, weeks later my friend was playing with someone in open and got ganked in his explorer. No scan, no reason. He was on his way to get some Meta Alloys to help a friend unlock an Engineer, thankfully he didn't have them on hand.
Then you also stumble across posts like this:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/428153-nothing-says-you-are-a-pvp-pro
And realize the same trash people are still around screwing up the game.

 

[EvE4evah]

- hates "the grind"

- calls the average murderhobo "toxic"

- bought the game on Christmas sale


Oh, my summer child…

 

[5m4llP0X]

- hates "the grind"

- calls the average murderhobo "toxic"

- bought the game on Christmas sale


Oh, my summer child…

I never said I hate the grind, I don't mind it. I hate the excessive loss that comes because the toxic garbage players think it's funny to destroy your work.
Ever play Don't Starve? They nerfed the fire chick because players kept jumping into servers and setting fire to everything before leaving. This is the community that's currently being pandered to when they make CG's open only without stopping their toxic reign.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

I never said I hate the grind, I don't mind it. I hate the excessive loss that comes because the toxic garbage players think it's funny to destroy your work.
Ever play Don't Starve? They nerfed the fire chick because players kept jumping into servers and setting fire to everything before leaving. This is the community that's currently being pandered to when they make CG's open only without stopping their toxic reign.

It sounds very much like open isn't yet for you.

 

[5m4llP0X]

It sounds very much like open isn't yet for you.

And it may never be if they continue to pander to the toxic players.

 

[Tygra]

If griefing or the worry about griefing wasn't such a big deal, and if there wasn't such an issue, then why has it become such a large topic?

Why do so many go round and round, on and on about it? folks are saying it's 'not an issue', if not, then why all of this drama?

So, obviously something is up. So, the idea it's not a problem is not valid based on the fact that Frontier is actively doing something. It's enough that Frontier has made 'attempts' to change things, either C&P changes or moving PP to Open only to show it IS a problem.

The issue is there are two types of players who want to play this game, and Frontier is picking favorites The group being tossed to the side who are speaking up because they are being crap'ed on are dealing with the other group who feel entitled. The 'entitled' group feels that way because they have Frontier backing them up, so why shouldn't they feel that way?

Frontier doesn't just mind throwing out the baby with the bathwater, they are open to tossing out the entire nursery and the entitled crowd is happy to see them go. They are not realizing they are only hurting them selves by making the game smaller and less interesting as they do it.

For each person ran off to solo, or to have quit the game altogether, that's less people to meet, less people playing the game, less money to Frontier, more poor quality content because of less resources, and ultimately, a shabby game that just is known for its 'Toxic Gamers' and poor quality. It hurts everyone.

A house divided can and will not stand, but who cares about that.

The ABSOLUTE CORE to this issue is that they cater to the PVP crowed because they want there to be 'risk and consequences' for the PVE crowd, and then they wonder why it's such a problem. Let me say that again, they WANT the PVP crowd to BE the 'risk and consequences' to the PVE crowd, but not too much mind you, lest it seem like they are supporting griefing. If you look at how C&P is done, that's how it's focused. "Go shoot people, but not too much, or we will seem like jerks". And they recently sharpened that focus.

* Griefers feel entitled because they can tell Frontier has their backs.
* Features are being removed from PVE modes to force more PVP.
* C&P is adjusted not to stop griefing, but to simply throttle it.
* Engineering is adjusted to balance the PVP playing field.
* PVE is harshly punished by loss of commodities and data on ship destruction.
* Optimized money methods are combat focused.
* Any time PVE money making methods get close to PVP numbers, they are nerffed.
* PVE content like Thargoids is underwhelming in payouts or overzealous PVE content grinding.
* Community ostracization of players who don't want to play PVP, and that's fine by Frontier.
* Game mechanics that are not complicated to implement to fix and balance things are not done.

They want it this way!

Bottom line, if you don't like PVP, quit. This is a PVP game, and if you don't like it, Go Away! We don't want you here. Just say it like you mean it people, stop telling people to go to Solo, Start telling them to quit because it's a PVP game, and petition Frontier to get rid of Solo and Private groups, Call it like you want it so you can stop confusing Frontier.

I don't like PVP in this game, and I have already quit, and I see that as fine here with everyone here who does PVP. Good enough for me, so, if you don't like Open with grief'ers, just stop playing, because:

>> THEY ARE NOT GOING TO FIX IT! <<

...................................................................... ... OR..........

The PVP community can speak out, and say, hey, we like to PVP, but even we think jerks need to knock it off, because you are hurting all of us, and petition frontier to ACTUALLY fix things and the PVP community to recognize that PVE only is a legit play style.

How do you want it? Run every PVE player off, or welcome PVE players as a part of the game. Might as well pick one, and stop all this drama non-sense.

Unfortunately, we all know how this will turn out, and that's why I have left the game.

 

[Jubei Himura]

If griefing or the worry about griefing wasn't such a big deal, and if there wasn't such an issue, then why has it become such a large topic?

Why do so many go round and round, on and on about it? folks are saying it's 'not an issue', if not, then why all of this drama?

So, obviously something is up. So, the idea it's not a problem is not valid based on the fact that Frontier is actively doing something. It's enough that Frontier has made 'attempts' to change things, either C&P changes or moving PP to Open only to show it IS a problem.

The issue is there are two types of players who want to play this game, and Frontier is picking favorites The group being tossed to the side who are speaking up because they are being crap'ed on are dealing with the other group who feel entitled. The 'entitled' group feels that way because they have Frontier backing them up, so why shouldn't they feel that way?

Frontier doesn't just mind throwing out the baby with the bathwater, they are open to tossing out the entire nursery and the entitled crowd is happy to see them go. They are not realizing they are only hurting them selves by making the game smaller and less interesting as they do it.

For each person ran off to solo, or to have quit the game altogether, that's less people to meet, less people playing the game, less money to Frontier, more poor quality content because of less resources, and ultimately, a shabby game that just is known for its 'Toxic Gamers' and poor quality. It hurts everyone.

A house divided can and will not stand, but who cares about that.

The ABSOLUTE CORE to this issue is that they cater to the PVP crowed because they want there to be 'risk and consequences' for the PVE crowd, and then they wonder why it's such a problem. Let me say that again, they WANT the PVP crowd to BE the 'risk and consequences' to the PVE crowd, but not too much mind you, lest it seem like they are supporting griefing. If you look at how C&P is done, that's how it's focused. "Go shoot people, but not too much, or we will seem like jerks". And they recently sharpened that focus.

* Griefers feel entitled because they can tell Frontier has their backs.
* Features are being removed from PVE modes to force more PVP.
* C&P is adjusted not to stop griefing, but to simply throttle it.
* Engineering is adjusted to balance the PVP playing field.
* PVE is harshly punished by loss of commodities and data on ship destruction.
* Optimized money methods are combat focused.
* Any time PVE money making methods get close to PVP numbers, they are nerffed.
* PVE content like Thargoids is underwhelming in payouts or overzealous PVE content grinding.
* Community ostracization of players who don't want to play PVP, and that's fine by Frontier.
* Game mechanics that are not complicated to implement to fix and balance things are not done.

They want it this way!

Bottom line, if you don't like PVP, quit. This is a PVP game, and if you don't like it, Go Away! We don't want you here. Just say it like you mean it people, stop telling people to go to Solo, Start telling them to quit because it's a PVP game, and petition Frontier to get rid of Solo and Private groups, Call it like you want it so you can stop confusing Frontier.

I don't like PVP in this game, and I have already quit, and I see that as fine here with everyone here who does PVP. Good enough for me, so, if you don't like Open with grief'ers, just stop playing, because:

>> THEY ARE NOT GOING TO FIX IT! <<

...................................................................... ... OR..........

The PVP community can speak out, and say, hey, we like to PVP, but even we think jerks need to knock it off, because you are hurting all of us, and petition frontier to ACTUALLY fix things and the PVP community to recognize that PVE only is a legit play style.

How do you want it? Run every PVE player off, or welcome PVE players as a part of the game. Might as well pick one, and stop all this drama non-sense.

Unfortunately, we all know how this will turn out, and that's why I have left the game.

I see your points. I will never say there isn't a problem. I will also say that you are right: The PVP community can speak out, and say, hey, we like to PVP, but even we think jerks need to knock it off, because you are hurting all of us

But, to say that "Frontier panders to the PVP crowd" is a little much, because you hear the exact opposite from the PvP crowd.

You may counter with "They always want more! They are greedy and don't care about how 'we' (the PvE crowd, I assume) want to play! I am allowed to play my way!". To that I would simply say... who's more important? You or them. If you say 'you', then are you any different than them? You would limit they're right to play their way in designated way for your own right to play your way.

This is why it's round and round. All ing and complaining, each person yelling that they are not being heard because the system favours the other side. Rarely do I see any solutions that favour both sides. I suppose that's because people generally don't want to consider others wants. And, yes, I hear you saying "Yeah! That's because PvP players grief people! They don't consider PvE'ers wants!" (think I wasn't paying attention? Please).

So where do we go from here? We acknowledge that there are problems on both sides. We try to understand that yes, there are people who are just pure jerks and love seal-clubbing, but not all PvP'ers originally wanted to do that, and there are reasons (may not be good reasons to you, but it was enough for them) why some people turn to sea-clubbing (I hear it's because of the lack of good PvP in the game, some do it because people were jerks on a forum, sometimes something stupid was said, that lacked self-awareness, and needed to be punished). As Joker said to Batman "It only takes one bad day." However, the opposite side has their points too. It only took one bad day from a grief'er to make them go to Solo or Mobius, and brand all of Open to be full of toxic people. So we have to acknowledge that grief'ers spoil Open for many, many people.

From there, we brainstorm solutions.

How would we make PvP better so that people don't turn to grief'ing? Have actual, sanctioned, PvP events (tournaments)? Can/how do we make Arena more viable? PvP only zones that have no negative consequences for player kills?

How can we make PvE'ers feel more safe? Have C&P be more immediate and deadly for player attacks and kills? Increase rebuy by a multiple, depending on offences? Have an insurance option for cargo/backup option for exploration data?


We need to come together as a community, and address the issues together, while acknowledging the other side of things. Your way of playing does not override my way of playing, and vice versa. The only reason Elite might fail from here will be because of the community. Do we devolve into our own closed minded echo chambers, or do we look at each other and say "We can do better, and we want better."

Again, full disclosure: I am mostly a PvE player. I play in Open, and engage other players in combat in CZ's. I have friends who are Mobius people, and friends in PvP groups.

So let's do this, together.

 

[Marra Morgan]

How would we make PvP better so that people don't turn to grief'ing? Have actual, sanctioned, PvP events (tournaments)? Can/how do we make Arena more viable? PvP only zones that have no negative consequences for player kills?

One step at a time. Let's see how Open-Only Powerplay works out, and then build further PvP mechanics into the Powerplay environment.

I really don't like the idea of PvP-Only zones. Or PvE-Only zones. I like a free-flowing game, where I can PvE or PvP wherever and whenever the opportunity takes me.

How can we make PvE'ers feel more safe? Have C&P be more immediate and deadly for player attacks and kills? Increase rebuy by a multiple, depending on offences? Have an insurance option for cargo/backup option for exploration data?

Have Security Status mean something other than police response time. Step up the patrols in High Sec, interdict and scan Wanted Commanders more often, make ATR appear more readily and patrol in SuperCruise, have heavier patrol ships outside high-sec stations.

But it should always be possible, albeit highly risky, to organise and commit crimes in high sec.

Also, recognise that not all PvErs want to feel more safe - from these forums and from my in-game friends, I know that there's a fair number of us who are happy to do our PvE thing while embracing the challenges that Open presents.

For those PvErs who want to be safe from player encounters, we do have 2 other game modes to help them with that, if they are so inclined.

 

[andrego]

It's called solo or private play. This is how we deal with the toxic trash that infests Open. If the devs want to encourage people to step back into Open by making CGs open only then they also need to make the game less toxic for players. Just because you enjoy the equivalent of hammering nails into your arms for fun doesn't mean we all do. Personally, I'm not a fan of tetanus.

I've learned how to do deal griefers without going to Solo play. If I can do it, others can as well.

 

[nicedevill]

Open play is full of toxic players. Griefers, trolls and the current system encourages this. If you want a more healthy PvP and community you need to address these players.
1) Rebuy is absurdly expensive. Most players avoiding open play don't want to blow a ton of their wallet on rebuying their ship over a griefer looking for lulz. Drop the price of this to at most 1% of the total cost of the ship. This is an MMO, after all, and death has never been this punishing in any game. Or keep it the same but drop the PvP cost to 0 like in other MMOs.

2) Cargo/bounties/exploration loss is absurd. I know this game is supposed to be part-sim, but this compounds the reason why people won't play in Open. The fear of trolls wanting to pop them and not only wipe out the millions of credits they put into the cargo, but also the hours of work they put in earning those credits to buy the cargo AND the rebuy of the ship. If you want to have some of the cargo drop as a "reward" to pirates, then so be it. But 100% loss AND ship cost means no one wants to deal with that risk. If you want to do a % of cargo dropped that would also be fine. Just not 100%.

*3A) Do something about the griefers and trolls. I mentioned this before, with some support, but have the Pilots Federation go after people with a notoriety above a certain number. And not just 1-2 ships, I'm talking a squad of 4 properly kitted out and even (if it gets high enough) a capital ship. A death by this means would only drop 1 rank of notoriety each time until they're back under a certain level.
or
*3B) Increase the notoriety gain against players and have all damage increase against them based on their notoriety. Then let it decay normally. (An indicator of how high their penalty is would also be nice)

*Obviously notoriety would not increase in combat zones, unless you attack an allied ship.

I agree 100% with everything you said and hope Frontier Developments think again what they want for Elite's future.