If you're having problems with ship NPCs, what aspect is your main issue?

[Tikigod]

This could either go well, or end up going rather badly depending on the forum community but here goes...

The idea for this thread is for those currently having problems with ship NPCs in the game to give a generalised impression on what particular aspect of the new NPC design is acting as the main issue for them, and then being able to expand in a bit more detail through a post.

Hopefully this way it might be a bit easier to get a broader picture of if it's the AI itself or NPC performance balancing that is a problem for some, and through additional post details if there are any recurring situations that keep cropping up in accounts and if things go especially well get some guidance for those that are still adjusting or can't quite tackle a certain situation.

If you're NOT having any issues with NPCs, then not much to really vote for as that isn't the point of the poll or the thread, it's not a popularity contest poll nor a "Fight for your feature" thread. But perhaps those not having issues could throw in constructive pointers and tips if someone posts a problem they're running into and they feel they've got something constructive to add to assist?


Note: Let's perhaps try not to have too much "Oh but you're wrong in your personal opinion of problems you're having."

 

[Ziljan]

My main issue is they are all on Prozac. 70% of them lack any aggression at all, and are near sighted when it comes time to aim. It takes a Viper NPC 2 minutes to eat through my 135 MJ shield, just because of bad aiming!

There is also a new bug where you can wait for 17 minutes for them to shoot back. Never going to happen. They eventually just fly in reverse until they disappear off the map.

 

[Tikigod]

So I'll throw in my opinion on what I'm finding is my major problem with the current situation at present.

I'm finding the AI absolutely fine in all engagements I've run into since 2.1 went live, but I am finding higher rated NPCs in a select number of faster/agile ships like Eagles have speed and turning performance that makes them next to impossible to directly oppose in other smaller ships, in my case Viper Mk3 and MK 4 (Mostly the Mk 4 though).

Often fights start off with me getting a solid advantage, but then end up being dragged on for 10 minutes (sometimes more) as the NPCs shift to repeating a never ending cycle of boosting by me when I get in optimal firing range, sticking close and then when I try to re-acquire them, they'll start to fly backwards whilst shooting me with their exact aim fixed weapons outside of my range to reliably hit. As soon as I boost to close in, they'll boost to fly by me, and the cycle starts over again, depending on their weapons loadout I can then end up very slowly losing the fight for no reason other than being unable to break their loop cycle. The only thing that ever really breaks the cycle is local system authority showing up, at which point the NPC will immediately jump out making all that time spent putting up with the rather dull engagement all for nothing except a single wake scan.

Missiles are also problematic in some situations due to their new ability to melt external modules in 1 or 2 hits, turning what would otherwise be a easy and straight forward fight into a drawn out session of random weapon malfunctions that drag out the fight longer than it had any right to be.

 

[Obnoxious_Gamer]

Just got insta-killed by one Asp while in a Corvette, again. Support ticket sent. This is extremely annoying.

 

[DaveB]

My main problem is the way the spawns scale to player rank. I've got nothing against taking on higher rank NPCs, indeed if I want to get beyond my current "Master" rank I have to and that's fine. It just breaks immersion that all the NPCs I encounter in the galaxy rank up along with me and raises the specter of hitting my skill cap - at which point quite rightly my combat progression would stop, but if all the AI I encounter are scaled up to whatever rank I might be at the time that occurs, that puts a crimp in every other way I could possibly progress in the game too, along with interfering with my ability to achieve self-selected goals too. When I want to find dangerous and above ships to shoot at, I know where to find them. The game doesn't need to scale every other NPC spawn to keep that challenge available.

 

[Envy661]

The AI as a whole. Since the game's launch, they've been buffed time and again based on the opinions of those outspoken about the lack of challenge they present on the forum. The problem is, that's the big part that is driving new players away and preventing players from investing time into the product. The game LAUNCHED with people who thought the AI was too difficult. Now we sit here a year and a half later with AI on a nearly player-skill level with hardcore players still saying it's not challenging enough and those people who thought it was challenging in the first place nowhere to be found because they've been scared off.

My problem with the AI is that we keep driving good potential players away from the game by changing them all the damn time and continuously making them harder to kill. This game needs players to survive, you know.

 

[Drachenklaue]

Just got insta-killed by one Asp while in a Corvette, again. Support ticket sent. This is extremely annoying.

How???
What? How?

Don't Asps only have class 2 weapons?
Do you just run no shields?

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My problem with the AI is that we keep driving good potential players away from the game by changing them all the damn time and continuously making them harder to kill. This game needs players to survive, you know.

Btw, the only people it drives off is grumpy old players that weren't very good at combat in the first place. I've never seen a new player turned off by it. And I know 3 new players I've brought to the game personally.

 

[Envy661]

How???
What? How?

Don't Asps only have class 2 weapons?
Do you just run no shields?

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Btw, the only people it drives off is grumpy old players that weren't very good at combat in the first place. I've never seen a new player turned off by it. And I know 3 new players I've brought to the game personally.

That's beautiful. I know of professional youtubers who just don't touch the game since launch because the AI was challenging then. Nerdcubed to name one. Who feels the only major selling point the game has to offer is trading, which he would rather play Euro Truck Simulator 2 to do because it's prettier to look at.

Prior to the game dropping, he talked constantly about it and loved it's very premise. He was a guy who loved the genre and saw no worth in it after it actually came out. To be fair, this game was extremely barebones at launch. And hasn't added a whole lot since.

 

[Alpha087]

The AI cheats and seems incredibly stupid overall. I managed to engage a system authority vessel with my SRV, and the NPC was completely unable to hit me... But I noticed it was using railguns. So I decided to try running away, it chased me for a solid 15 minutes across the surface of a planet and never did it once stop firing its railguns. Not to reload and not because it ran out of ammo. Well, I had a bounty after all of that and left the system...

Upon arriving in the next system, an Elite bounty hunter came after me, despite my not having a bounty. The bounty hunter interdicted me, and instead of scanning for a bounty immediately opened fire, giving themselves a bounty in the process. I spent a good chunk of time fighting the bounty hunter (as did the police that showed up), got my measly 400 credits and continued on. I later encountered 3 more Elite bounty hunters all in different systems where I was not wanted, who all attempted the same thing.

After this I decided to load up an Eagle for a suicide run (and to test smaller ships vs the "new" AI). Well, I engaged a lone system authority Anaconda who proceeded to pretty much out-turn my A-rated thrusters despite my having played this game for well over a year and having a pretty good grasp on how to be evasive. (At least as best I can on M & KB) I died instantly.

Much like how the AI used to have "magic" maneuvering skills when attempting to scan you for cargo at a RES site, these "new" AI seem to use that same magic for attempting to b-line for the rear of your ship and will stick to your six like glue once there. Never moving unless you, yourself try to move. Even if you happen to be nailing them with half a dozen turrets while the authority vessels form a conga line behind the NPC, shooting at its own rear.

http://imgur.com/a/zYrE8

All I ever really wanted was 2.0's AI with the spin of death fixed. (And maybe Dangerous, Deadly and Elites a little harder) That's all.

 

[n4p0l3on]

I'm gonna type this in bold :

do you know what is the biggest problem with the AI npc? It's not their ranks, their skills or ships and equipment...

The biggest problem is their lack of persistency!

Once you started to program the AI with persistency as a main goal in design, then you will naturally make them behave like real players.

As long as the AI npc are designed as random procedural generated objects then they would never have any real and deep meaning.

 

[Jilchath]

[FONT=&quot]I'm probably going to regret this...but...here goes..


I chose other as nothing in the voting really centered on my ideas.

I think the NPC AI is good, fine, whatever. Sometimes they don't act as I think they should, but that's mainly because it was probably something I did. Like shooting them lol

The only experience I have is before the patch this morning at 10am 06/03/16 when I was suddenly unable to damage the enemy NPC while it was only taking a couple shots to kill my ship. I thought that was a little unfair as even if I had the BEST equipment, my ship can still be damaged...oh wait...I have an A-fitted ship...had...well...you get the idea.

I'm a strong believer in balance. It's a very slippery slope when trying to accommodate players who may not be as good as others while making it fun and or challenging for people that, for lack of better phrasing, "Live for this sh*t".

If I'm in a 'Conda or Python and I can "roll" the ship to keep weapons on the target, that target should be taking constant damage regardless of the engineering mods it might have. Sure, the modifications to the specific components are "resistant" to Pulse,Thermal or Kinetic damage, but not impervious to it. That is what it felt like.

I know it's a coined phrase, but those of us that have military experience know for a fact...If it bleeds, it can be killed...if it can be damaged, it can be destroyed.
Yes...a phrase coined to death in movies too many times...but it's true.

So is the AI acting normal?? Not sure yet. Is it better to have the engineering mods on NPC ships?....Still unsure.

I guess in a way I feel that the NPC ships that have the "uber weapons of death" should be something like a boss. Something you choose to go after. Huge risk vs Huge reward. There is no huge reward for Bounty hunting in a RES, but yet here come the NPC's that have nearly invincible ships. RvR?? not really...just a bounty. It's not as if the weapons or modded equipment dropped after the ship was destroyed...and if it did, would it really have the same characteristics it displayed during the encounter?
If the normal NPC's have them, for example pirates in a RES, then it's just over kill...those are normal street thugs and hoodlums. The NPC's that pull you out of warp due to you carrying goods or cargo...even for a mission...should not be armed to the teeth with Modded weapons and components, makes no sense.

The NPC's that chase down players because they belong to a faction...ok...I can see that. Military, training, access to high-tech goods. Ok I can believe it.
The NPC Boss of a pirate faction? Sure...I can definitely believe that. Especially if it was like an "instance" or a "dungeon like" mission where you had to get "special access" to go do it otherwise nothing is there...so...Instance. But that's not what this is about.

So I guess that "My biggest problem" would be all of the above.
I don't have a problem with being beaten by a better player, but I do have a problem with being cheated out of an obvious win because the player used special weapons and defenses that could not be breached.

The AI seems to act fine.
The Engineer mods definitely work fine.
Put those 2 things together, and it's a potential for unbalanced mayhem.
As I said before, balance is a slippery slope. It's difficult to maintain balance while you have the potential to unbalance things trying to make it more challenging.
Does the AI act "normal" I suppose...not sure I know what "normal" really is.
If normal is to go after my ship because of a mission or because it's the way they were programmed to, then sure.
Do they protect? I suppose.
Are they aggressive? They tend to shoot at me when they should, so I guess

I know that Frontier is trying their best to create a universe that we can enjoy being both stunning and dangerous at the same time.

It's my opinion that the NPC's did nothing to deserve the Mods. They're static. If I get blown up by one at LFT3447 (? hope that was right) and I go through the dead screen to jump back into my ship, I can't go back and kick it's A** and get revenge. It's gone. No reprisal, no revenge, no payback, no satisfaction, done and over.
So no, I don't think the AI deserve them unless it's a special case. They're deadly enough as it is.
Now if the AI were constant and served a purpose, had their own agenda blah blah blah, that means they would have worked for it...if they survived.
Of course that brings in the whole "Heuristic learning AI" thing that could end up being a bad thing and then we have terminators all over the place....yeah...bad idea.

But their acting pretty much as they should I guess. I just think their powerful enough...especially in groups or even pairs. Two Anaconda's can really ruin your day. Now turn around and add in Engineering mods...yeah that was fun...not.

But this was before the update this morning and I'm now getting around to try it out and see if it "feels" any better or different. So I guess we'll see.

[/FONT]

 

[Cowboy Bats]

The only thing that ever really breaks the cycle is local system authority showing up, at which point the NPC will immediately jump out making all that time spent putting up with the rather dull engagement all for nothing except a single wake scan.

You're touching on a growing frustration: NPC's have gotten pretty damned good at fleeing. I can see positive arguments from a simulation point of view, but repeated fights without a loss or victory just feels like you are just spinning your wheels.

 

[Grumpy181155]

My main issue is they are all on Prozac. 70% of them lack any aggression at all, and are near sighted when it comes time to aim. It takes a Viper NPC 2 minutes to eat through my 135 MJ shield, just because of bad aiming!

There is also a new bug where you can wait for 17 minutes for them to shoot back. Never going to happen. They eventually just fly in reverse until they disappear off the map.

You are obviously fighting different NPCs to the rest of us.

 

[Tikigod]

What a prejudiced poll. No option for the AI is fine or too easy.

At the risk of feeding something.....

Read the OP:

<snip>
If you're NOT having any issues with NPCs, then not much to really vote for as that isn't the point of the poll or the thread, it's not a popularity contest poll nor a "Fight for your feature" thread. But perhaps those not having issues could throw in constructive pointers and tips if someone posts a problem they're running into and they feel they've got something constructive to add to assist?
</snip>

This isn't a thread with some notion to try and mob decide if AI should be changed or not, it's a means for those having issues with the current NPCs to throw in what they feel is the problem in their eyes, and to elaborate if they want to.

So no, it's not a prejudiced poll. The poll is targeting the topic it was created for.

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I'm probably going to regret this...but...here goes..


I chose other as nothing in the voting really centered on my ideas.

I think the NPC AI is good, fine, whatever. Sometimes they don't act as I think they should, but that's mainly because it was probably something I did. Like shooting them lol

The only experience I have is before the patch this morning at 10am 06/03/16 when I was suddenly unable to damage the enemy NPC while it was only taking a couple shots to kill my ship. I thought that was a little unfair as even if I had the BEST equipment, my ship can still be damaged...oh wait...I have an A-fitted ship...had...well...you get the idea.

I'm a strong believer in balance. It's a very slippery slope when trying to accommodate players who may not be as good as others while making it fun and or challenging for people that, for lack of better phrasing, "Live for this sh*t".

If I'm in a 'Conda or Python and I can "roll" the ship to keep weapons on the target, that target should be taking constant damage regardless of the engineering mods it might have. Sure, the modifications to the specific components are "resistant" to Pulse,Thermal or Kinetic damage, but not impervious to it. That is what it felt like.

I know it's a coined phrase, but those of us that have military experience know for a fact...If it bleeds, it can be killed...if it can be damaged, it can be destroyed.
Yes...a phrase coined to death in movies too many times...but it's true.

So is the AI acting normal?? Not sure yet. Is it better to have the engineering mods on NPC ships?....Still unsure.

I guess in a way I feel that the NPC ships that have the "uber weapons of death" should be something like a boss. Something you choose to go after. Huge risk vs Huge reward. There is no huge reward for Bounty hunting in a RES, but yet here come the NPC's that have nearly invincible ships. RvR?? not really...just a bounty. It's not as if the weapons or modded equipment dropped after the ship was destroyed...and if it did, would it really have the same characteristics it displayed during the encounter?
If the normal NPC's have them, for example pirates in a RES, then it's just over kill...those are normal street thugs and hoodlums. The NPC's that pull you out of warp due to you carrying goods or cargo...even for a mission...should not be armed to the teeth with Modded weapons and components, makes no sense.

The NPC's that chase down players because they belong to a faction...ok...I can see that. Military, training, access to high-tech goods. Ok I can believe it.
The NPC Boss of a pirate faction? Sure...I can definitely believe that. Especially if it was like an "instance" or a "dungeon like" mission where you had to get "special access" to go do it otherwise nothing is there...so...Instance. But that's not what this is about.

So I guess that "My biggest problem" would be all of the above.
I don't have a problem with being beaten by a better player, but I do have a problem with being cheated out of an obvious win because the player used special weapons and defenses that could not be breached.

The AI seems to act fine.
The Engineer mods definitely work fine.
Put those 2 things together, and it's a potential for unbalanced mayhem.
As I said before, balance is a slippery slope. It's difficult to maintain balance while you have the potential to unbalance things trying to make it more challenging.
Does the AI act "normal" I suppose...not sure I know what "normal" really is.
If normal is to go after my ship because of a mission or because it's the way they were programmed to, then sure.
Do they protect? I suppose.
Are they aggressive? They tend to shoot at me when they should, so I guess

I know that Frontier is trying their best to create a universe that we can enjoy being both stunning and dangerous at the same time.

It's my opinion that the NPC's did nothing to deserve the Mods. They're static. If I get blown up by one at LFT3447 (? hope that was right) and I go through the dead screen to jump back into my ship, I can't go back and kick it's A** and get revenge. It's gone. No reprisal, no revenge, no payback, no satisfaction, done and over.
So no, I don't think the AI deserve them unless it's a special case. They're deadly enough as it is.
Now if the AI were constant and served a purpose, had their own agenda blah blah blah, that means they would have worked for it...if they survived.
Of course that brings in the whole "Heuristic learning AI" thing that could end up being a bad thing and then we have terminators all over the place....yeah...bad idea.

But their acting pretty much as they should I guess. I just think their powerful enough...especially in groups or even pairs. Two Anaconda's can really ruin your day. Now turn around and add in Engineering mods...yeah that was fun...not.

But this was before the update this morning and I'm now getting around to try it out and see if it "feels" any better or different. So I guess we'll see.

Not properly given this a full read yet, only covered it quickly but fantastic post.

 

[Jilchath]

You're touching on a growing frustration: NPC's have gotten pretty damned good at fleeing. I can see positive arguments from a simulation point of view, but repeated fights without a loss or victory just feels like you are just spinning your wheels.

There is also no revenge. Since their static and just disappear after you leave it's kind of unfair...unfinished.

Like having a power outage and having to use the toilet. Can't flush, can't turn off/on the light...you leave feeling like something is unfinished
Pretty much the same way dogfights are in ED-H.

They boost to get behind you and act like a fart that lingers.
Then if for some reason you happen to be good at getting them off your 6, they prolong it taking "pop" shots and whittling you down until you lose.
Good tactic because WE use it all the time.
Unfortunately, the AI cheats when they do it.
If myself and the AI are both in the same type of ship, we should be doing relatively the same. It should almost be a draw depending on their skill.

If I'm in a Vulture, and the NPC is in an eagle or a Viper MkIV or even a Cobra III or IV, the Vulture can outmaneuver both ships. Being "A" fitted, even more so.
But, I've seen Eagles, Vipers, Pythons, and Anaconda's all doing a really good job of almost dancing around me...even a sidewinder...a        *ng sidewinder!!! Really?!? And I'm in an "A" fitted Vulture?!?
Is it AI skill?
Nope...its a cheat. An AI cheat that gives them abilities to be better even though they have no reason to be and the equipment they have can't do the things they're doing.

There is nothing wrong with the AI because they allow the AI to utilize cheats specifically for them.

Frontiers designed them to be using "A"fitted ships evidently. That's the only thing I can think of as to how they tend to pull off the maneuvers that they do.
The strafing at 250kph while scanning you and then getting in front of you and going in reverse at 300 or more...wish I could do that.

So there is nothing wrong with the AI. They are programmed to cheat.
Once Frontiers programs them to have good skills without cheating, then things will be fixed.

 

[Tikigod]

My main problem is the npcs are too easy? Where is my poll option?

Doesn't fit your narrative?

If you seriously consider 'too easy' a real problem you're struggling to tackle and not just a criticism for somewhere you feel the game is lacking, then your option would be 'other'. And then doing as the option asked and elaborating on your major problem area with the NPCs.

Edit: Come to think of it 'too easy' would still fall under either AI is a problem or performance is a problem so would be valid choices for any of the 4... but I don't think that would really fit into what you're trying to do here.

 

[BDelacroix]

There is also no revenge. Since their static and just disappear after you leave it's kind of unfair...unfinished.

Like having a power outage and having to use the toilet. Can't flush, can't turn off/on the light...you leave feeling like something is unfinished
Pretty much the same way dogfights are in ED-H.

Toilets require electricity to flush where you are at?

 

[Vasious]

My main problem is the npcs are too easy? Where is my poll option?

Doesn't fit your narrative?

Overall AI behaviour is my major problem.
Overall NPC ship performance is my major problem.

With a post explaining maybe?

Failing that Other

And a Post explaining

Failing that a Thread on "Improvements I would like to see in the NPCs/AI Pilots"

 

[Cmdr Cheese Wedge]

So who is having the issue of the AI not shooting you?
I've seen this behaviour a few times now.

 

[Codger]

The things that bother me the most are the weird interdiction problems (chain interdictions, stupid pirates demanding cargo you don't have, npcs that can jump 30ly in an Eagle and arrive with full shield and hull 10 seconds after you jump away) stuff like that. It's the stuff that interrupts, annoys, and is clearly wrong, and yet continues to be in the game. That's the stuff that bothers me the most.