Implementing a "nemesis system" in ED

[Stinja]

Sipping some Wassail and munching some cheese, chilling to ED, when the idea hit me: how could a Nemesis System inside Elite work?

So while doing a data delivery run, and I get interdicted by an Elite Python. It's a tough fight, he's got very decent DPS and is turning hard, the little Cobra is weighed down with cargo, and breaking his shields is requiring furious pip management, and the odd bout of fleeing tactical withdrawals to recharge my own shields.
Then the coppers turn up (spoilsports), and the Python says it's charging it's FSD, but never actually tries to jump away, and inevitably he explodes.

We've been there many times before: a little skirmish, and depending on ship disparity, which are all-but meaningless. OK he was a mission generated event, but what if that NPC did run away? Say later on he interdicts me again in a bigger ship with "let's see how you do this time!"?
Frontier have said our CMDRs are small cogs, hence no big individual story arcs, yet there could be much more personal stories.

In case you aren't sure what i'm talking about, the Nemesis System was from an open world fantasy game, whereby enemies you fought were tracked, and would reappear, often upgrading power over time.
Even knowing nothing about the mechanics a player would come to learn names of certain enemies that kept popping up to fight you. Generally well received, this element added a personal touch to the usual bland enemy assignment of such games.

With respect to Elite, tracking NPCs you kill and are killed by, letting them rank up and giving them better ships and upgrades, then subtly making them appear randomly or as part of missions could be quite interesting.
You wouldn't want an in-your-face page listing current nemesis for example, just let the player gradually come know recognise a certain name or ship popping up more than often.
As they'd be tailored to you (and not other CMDRs) it could allow an element of scaling difficulty for experienced players, as your nemesis became A+ and even engineered.
This would also allow different AI which would be annoying if generally implemented (such as running away properly), and just a bit more emergent randomness from the NPCs.

Anyway, just a lazy boxing day thought... fly safe!


tl;dr Nemesis in Elite

 

[GunnerBill]

You own personal NPC stalker?

We already had that for a while when Robigo was a thing. But that was very short termist and probably not entirely deliberate.

I admit it sounds interesting, although knowing how FD implement things like that it'll be jumping out at you from behind every corner, instantly healed and reloaded...

[video=youtube;cI3S9K0SpSQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI3S9K0SpSQ[/video]

Done well though it would be great, provided you could actually defeat them permanently at some point. Maybe via a specific "end" mission

 

[dm0815]

Sounds like fun. I've yet to play Shadow of Mordor, but I'd imagine that in this game your Nemesis is perceived as a real character (because you can actually see him, he talks/taunts you etc.)
This is what ED is misses in general terms. NPCs in this game lack colour. They are not persistent and all they have is a random name, a goofy character portrait and some lines of canned text snippets in the message display. They are pretty generic. Unless that changes I'm afraid a Nemesis would suffer the same fate: It's an annoying inconvenience with whatever you are currently doing and you'll never wonder who that guy might be.

EDIT:

One way to remedy this situation would be animated character portraits and voice acting, but that's unlikely to happen.

 

[Winterwalker]

One way to remedy this situation would be animated character portraits and voice acting, but that's unlikely to happen.

I think that's quite likely to come eventually , though what's stopping it wouldn't be capabilities of the game engine - it's well within spec - but the perfomance of player's machines. Every player's machine.

I like the idea of the OP in principle, it would instantly give a personal narrative. Also agree with Gunner Bill though, that it would take some thinking through so the interaction doesn't seem forced. I think there would probably be some sort of mission or trigger to start the feud and some way to end it too (report him to the cops?). Imagine you've been collecting combat bonds in the bubble but decide to take an explorer build out to Beagle Point. Your vendetta NPC is with you every jump of the way, getting stronger after every encounter? That could be annoying.

Would need to be done right but is an intruiging idea while not forgetting of that NPC's who attack you now, do already scale with your combat rating. Making it more personal would extend that, no doubt. What if you could bribe the guy and get him to team up with you? Wonder if it might be more in scope of NPC's wings (NPC anti-wing) if / when that comes to light?

 

[SentineI]

Sounds good... but as with many ideas, a very similar idea was planned by FDev years ago, before Elite Dangerous was even released:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/7494-Elite-Dangerous-Persistent-NPC-s

What you describe is (roughly speaking!) a "Tier 3 character" that gets promoted to "tier 2" (and thus becomes persistent).

So yes, FDev had the idea for (something like!) the Nemesis System in 2013, over a year before Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor was even released.
Feel free to browse the DDF Archive, and cry at other missed opportunities:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=36

 

[W4rSkuLL]

Sounds good... but as with many ideas, a very similar idea was planned by FDev years ago, before Elite Dangerous was even released:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/7494-Elite-Dangerous-Persistent-NPC-s

What you describe is (roughly speaking!) a "Tier 3 character" that gets promoted to "tier 2" (and thus becomes persistent).

So yes, FDev had the idea for (something like!) the Nemesis System in 2013, over a year before Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor was even released.
Feel free to browse the DDF Archive, and cry at other missed opportunities:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=36

I had all but forgotten these discussion although they come vividly back when looked upon. It was great ideas, sadly Frontier didnt choose to implement them, yet. Vindicator Jones just lost his persistent NPC pilot and made a video about it. NPCs do hold great potentials if you get attached to them. Just like your ship.

 

[Stinja]

Interesting, so yes Tier 2 NPCs, but (given engineering didn't exist back then / balance) more options for individuality.
Say maybe a persistent trader NPC you saved once, and that offers you jobs; a bounty hunter NPC as you get wanted a lot, and so on. I guess we can hope that Season 3 may flesh out NPCs...

 

[Julio Montega]

To have real persistant NPCs FD needs to change the economy accordingly first,
otherwise this planned system just becomes focussed on one aspect of the game.
What Elite misses is the interlinking between all jobs and NPCs changing the galaxy
and economy.

Apart from that, yes NPCs becoming simulated entities that influence the player too,
would be a great addition.
In my line of work i think there is a place in the game for traders surviving my raids,
coming back with escorts, or becoming pirates themselves.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

For me, there would be two forms of Nemeses.

The first would be NPC's that manage to escape from the player in the first instance. This could be an NPC Pirate, Security, Bounty Hunter or Trader.

They would only.be visible to the player, or other players sharing the same instance, when that player is online, & would improve in skill & equipment over time.....much like the player.

The 2nd type of nemesis would be enforcers for a Faction or Power you have annoyed The more you annoy them, the more Enforcers you have to deal with.

In both cases, though, these nemeses would be semi-peristent.

 

[GunnerBill]

I'm not sure if this counts but I see the same NPC names and ships constantly in my local Haz Res.

Of course no interaction other than I shoot them but still it add's colour - "oh no not you again!".

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
With respect to Elite, tracking NPCs you kill and are killed by, letting them rank up and giving them better ships and upgrades, then subtly making them appear randomly or as part of missions could be quite interesting.
…

So instead of constantly getting interdicted by Deadly and Elite FdLs and Anacondas while flying my FDS I will get constantly interdicted by Elite Anacondas, FdL, FAS even when I fly my Sidewinder or DBX?

Yea, doesn't sound like fun.

If somebody didn't noticed it, I think the way Elite Dangerous spawns NPCs is really bad.

 

[VR Golgot]

This would be a great way to leverage the giant proc gen nature of ED's world and make it breath, for sure

As ChrisH says the pre-launch design docs theorycrafted something very much like this. It's obviously something they had their eye on.

I had my own little daydream about how it might look. Here's a scenario:

A 'Proc Gen' Story:

• You pirate a vulnerable Python, which turns out to have a particularly foul-mouthed pilot.
  
• You leave him stranded just because that makes him curse even more. It is amusing.
  
• You check the inhabitant of the escape pod you scooped up. She claims to be a princess of great standing. You point out that she's wearing overalls through the comms array. She admits she's nobody special, but thanks you for not swearing like the last guy.
  
• She says her dad will pay you a small reward for her return, but could also offer free parts for your ship. You decide it's worth checking out.
  
• The journey's a fair way off, you get distracted by some tasty victims as you go. Your passenger complains that she can't see what's going on and can she at least use the turret?
  
• You let her, she's not bad, and hey, she works for free.
  
• You've dallied in this area for too long. Swearypants the smuggler is back, in a Keelback, and he's angry. You can't remember his actual name, but boy does he remember yours, and he's brought some friends with him.
  
• The fight that follows is more epic than you expect, with some surprising language littering the airways, and some very specific claims about what he'll do to you and your passenger. With her help you disable the missile racks on his Wingmen and leave the whole ensemble in tatters. Swearypants's howls as you harvest goods from his newly disabled ship are something to behold...
  
• Finally you arrive at her father's place of work, the Outfitting services on an Industrial station. It takes a bit of bartering, and a few minor threats, but you walk away with some evil dirty drives and he gets his daughter back. He's that impressed by your bartering that he thinks there's a goods run you might be interested in. It's mainly above board, but the Engi commodities are highly sought after, by pirates...

And so the story ends. You set the path, but it had a traditional reward wrapping it up. And hey, maybe it doesn't end there...

• You took the job, and just as you prepare to leave you get a Comms message. Fancy a gunner onboard? (Not for free this time, but this is family business, she'll work cheap).

And off you go. Maybe to sell her into slavery in a fit of rage if the mission goes badly? Maybe to get chased by her dad in an audaciously Engineered ship if you ever pass back that way again? Maybe you just settle down into a profitable trade groove with some discounted ship parts for a bit after a life spent in crime? There's some 'Chose Your Own Adventure' potential right here

Never know . Once this whole 2018 phase of apparent refactoring and spaghetti streamlining is over anyway . (I do think the procedural voices are a promising sign. I doubt they'll remain the preserve of Galnet & Station Announcers alone).

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

I encountered something similar to this recently, I was doing a rake of cargo salvage missions, and there were a couple of the mission related cargo spills that I'd drop in on and with in a few seconds of my arrival an overpowered wing of six or seven NPC's would drop in. Being totally outgunned I'd grab a few of the cargo canisters, jump out, wait for the mission objective signal source to respawn, and drop in on it and repeat the process. Towards the end of that campaign I had to crack out my conda, which prompted them to crack out their conda's too. They were a real annoyance, but added depth to the game. It would benefit from some persistence in the universe, whereby I could get hassled by greiving relatives or friends of the npc's I had killed in those tussles even after the missions were over and done with.

Thinking on my toes here, it could work with existing game mechanics if it were set up such that killing NPC's ships sometimes spawned escape pods, those escape pods were later scooped up and the NPC had thus lived to fight another day and set about pursuing you. However if the player destroyed the NPC's escape pod that would be the end of the NPC. However the NPC's death may bring about others from his bgs faction trying to avenge their fallen comrade.

 

[PuffyEichhorst]

Nooooo time for gameplay- i have to grind!
But seriously- i like the idea, and i suppose it could be implemented quite easily, cause we have already npcs who stalk you on missions.
Could be a nice running gag. As long it doesn't turn up that the npc trying to tell me that he's my father....!

 

[_Flin_]

Nemesis system is nice.

I see that, however, as a subfeature of "persistent NPCs".

 

[Iskariot]

Sipping some Wassail and munching some cheese, chilling to ED, when the idea hit me: how could a Nemesis System inside Elite work?

So while doing a data delivery run, and I get interdicted by an Elite Python. It's a tough fight, he's got very decent DPS and is turning hard, the little Cobra is weighed down with cargo, and breaking his shields is requiring furious pip management, and the odd bout of fleeing tactical withdrawals to recharge my own shields.
Then the coppers turn up (spoilsports), and the Python says it's charging it's FSD, but never actually tries to jump away, and inevitably he explodes.

We've been there many times before: a little skirmish, and depending on ship disparity, which are all-but meaningless. OK he was a mission generated event, but what if that NPC did run away? Say later on he interdicts me again in a bigger ship with "let's see how you do this time!"?
Frontier have said our CMDRs are small cogs, hence no big individual story arcs, yet there could be much more personal stories.

In case you aren't sure what i'm talking about, the Nemesis System was from an open world fantasy game, whereby enemies you fought were tracked, and would reappear, often upgrading power over time.
Even knowing nothing about the mechanics a player would come to learn names of certain enemies that kept popping up to fight you. Generally well received, this element added a personal touch to the usual bland enemy assignment of such games.

With respect to Elite, tracking NPCs you kill and are killed by, letting them rank up and giving them better ships and upgrades, then subtly making them appear randomly or as part of missions could be quite interesting.
You wouldn't want an in-your-face page listing current nemesis for example, just let the player gradually come know recognise a certain name or ship popping up more than often.
As they'd be tailored to you (and not other CMDRs) it could allow an element of scaling difficulty for experienced players, as your nemesis became A+ and even engineered.
This would also allow different AI which would be annoying if generally implemented (such as running away properly), and just a bit more emergent randomness from the NPCs.

Anyway, just a lazy boxing day thought... fly safe!


tl;dr Nemesis in Elite

I love the Nemesis system in ME: SOM.
However I do not think it would work very well in a space sim.
Big part of the Nemesis system is the personal, characterful presentation of the individual enemies, the taunting, the bragging etc.
Without that things would fall flat and you would only end up with enemies that become more powerful all the time.
Come to think of it... Perhaps that would be enough.

I personally would not like to be stalked all the time if that would lead to a situation in which I get attacked by a powerful enemy when I just switched to my unarmed explorer, or when I am mining peacefully in some asteroid belt.
I think it would become annoying very soon as the character of ED's gameplay is very different from that in ME: SOM.
In ME: SOM the Nemesis system is the core around which everything revolves. In ED this could never be the case.

 

[VR Golgot]

I love the Nemesis system in ME: SOM.
However I do not think it would work very well in a space sim.
Big part of the Nemesis system is the personal, characterful presentation of the individual enemies, the taunting, the bragging etc.
Without that things would fall flat and you would only end up with enemies that become more powerful all the time.
Come to think of it... Perhaps that would be enough.

I personally would not like to be stalked all the time if that would lead to a situation in which I get attacked by a powerful enemy when I just switched to my unarmed explorer, or when I am mining peacefully in some asteroid belt.
I think it would become annoying very soon as the character of ED's gameplay is very different from that in ME: SOM.
In ME: SOM the Nemesis system is the core around which everything revolves. In ED this could never be the case.

I agree that we'll never see the audio-file heavy-voice acting of SoM etc, but FDev could have some fun with varied crackling comms. The crackle can make the lesser audio colour & nuanced character more forgivable, but if they get the procedural voices working well enough they could include a literal ton of characterful content via dialogue variety & traits. A huge spread of pirate curses, federal legalese, imperial pomp etc, all filtered through a big spread of combinable character norms - which could also be reinforced by NPC actions [bravado masking cowardice, wheedling untrustworthiness, wheeler-dealers who favour a deal above all.]

Before you know it you could be harassed by an incessant barterer in a yellow Robin Reliant, I mean Hauler

I do agree that excessive stalking could become problematic at too high a ratio, but it's something they could balance. Plus there's also the possibility of having 'Allies' in the mix too as a mirror to Nemesis. Guys who remember a good deed and rock up to your aid, repair you when you're down and out, trade you rare gear at mate's rate etc. Lots of possibilities

 

[Marc_Hicks]

I love the Nemesis system in ME: SOM.
However I do not think it would work very well in a space sim.
Big part of the Nemesis system is the personal, characterful presentation of the individual enemies, the taunting, the bragging etc.
Without that things would fall flat and you would only end up with enemies that become more powerful all the time.
Come to think of it... Perhaps that would be enough.

I personally would not like to be stalked all the time if that would lead to a situation in which I get attacked by a powerful enemy when I just switched to my unarmed explorer, or when I am mining peacefully in some asteroid belt.
I think it would become annoying very soon as the character of ED's gameplay is very different from that in ME: SOM.
In ME: SOM the Nemesis system is the core around which everything revolves. In ED this could never be the case.

A Nemesis doesn't have to be powerful, just a challenge. Also, they should behave in a logical fashion. They shouldn't be able to magically track you down, outside of any tools they plan to give players for tracking enemies in future updates, but it would be more a case of the nemesis having a particular stomping ground (maybe across a 40-50 light year radius) in which you are highly likely to run into them.

 

[VR Golgot]

A Nemesis doesn't have to be powerful, just a challenge. Also, they should behave in a logical fashion. They shouldn't be able to magically track you down, outside of any tools they plan to give players for tracking enemies in future updates, but it would be more a case of the nemesis having a particular stomping ground (maybe across a 40-50 light year radius) in which you are highly likely to run into them.

Yeah a regional system would make more sense, with only really high-tier enemies (or allies) potentially pursuing you outside the initial discovery system. (Of course the same applies to SoM, with their factional layouts. The fact that they didn't deploy it suggests it comes with a significant additional computing cost. I'm sure it would add time to each 'roll' when assessing encounter likelihood etc)

(That's just made me think of a cool wrinkle for explorers though. Having an incredibly low incidence rate of NPC explorers - but meeting a surprisingly high density of 'familiar faces' on return to Explorer hubs like Obsidian Orbital etc . They could act as decent mission givers and lore / breadcrumb sources for wild goose chases too - as all 'Ally' style NPCs would ideally)