Improve NPC Pilot AI

[EponymousCowherd]

No, I'm not talking about how they fight (or not). I'm talking about how they interact with PCs and their general intelligence.

The problem is that almost all verbal interaction with NPCs is one-way and is restricted to a very limited array of canned phrases. The first time a pirate in a RES says "I see all", it's pretty cool. The 500th time its just annoying. And the same goes for every other canned phrase they utter. Another problem is the way the canned phrased are used inappropriately. An NPC pirate that has been stripped of his shields and is 5% of hull away from going "pop" shouldn't still be saying "All this can stop if you just give me X tons of Y"

I do understand that this game isn't all about having realistic chats with AI NPCs, but the current interactions are extremely crude for an AAA game like ED and really need to be addressed.

This leads on to the second problem with NPC AI. They do things that even the stupidest human pilot would never do. A pirate flying a Cobra in a RES would not fly up to a fully armed and armoured Cutter and, on discovering said cutter had no cargo, would say "How do you make a living". It's ruddy obvious how said Cutter pilot makes his living and the Cobra pilot would be disappearing into the distance as fast as his boost would carry him.

So, even if we can't have real, intelligent NPCs that interact with us in a believable way, can we, at least, have NPC's that react realistically to the actual situation. So at least some NPCs who are about to die beg for mercy instead of continuing with the threats, so at least some NPCs, on encountering a much more powerful ship, behave in the way a real pilot might do when they have bitten off more than they can chew.

 

[Captain Thea Kreutzer]

I want improved AI as well but every game has its own quirks with AI. Its not only Elite.

 

[Azmuth Divarchchron]

they had alot better AI in the game back in 2.4 but they nerfed the AI because people complained about the AI being too good at the game.
I would have prefered the AI to be as smart as it was.

 

[EponymousCowherd]

they had alot better AI in the game back in 2.4 but they nerfed the AI because people complained about the AI being too good at the game.
I would have prefered the AI to be as smart as it was.

I specifically stated in my original post that I was not referring to the NPC piloting skills, but to their verbal communication and decision making skills.

 

[Old Duck]

I made similar points myself here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...e-lack-of-AI-diversity)?highlight=old+duck+ai

Some people complain the NPCs are too easy, others complain they are too hard, my complaint is they are all too "samey". Lately I feel like every NPC pilot I encounter is the same pilot. I'm not just talking in combat. In fact, it's somewhat disconcerting to see passenger ships boosting out of the station and pulling hard Gs as if Tom Cruise is the pilot. When I fly passengers, I purposefully "fly gently" for their comfort. I have similar observations of miners. My alt-CMDR operates on the "other side of the law", and I'm having a hard time believing that a miner in a Type-6 is going to aggressively attack me, even "hunt me down" with their pitiful lasers, all the while spamming "I was just mining!" Then again, why is this miner equipped with SCBs? That's valuable cargo space being wasted!

I would really like to see some AI diversity added to the game, specifically designed to help create the feel of the world the NPCs populate. The majority of NPCs should follow the speed limit inside station limits, for example. Passenger ships and traders should fly "gracefully", and most non-combat ships should act defensively rather than offensively if I attack them. This isn't just about speed, but acceleration, turn rate, mailslot etiquette, etc. But let's not confuse grace with robotic perfection - yes, perfect vertical landings from a mile high, I'm looking at you!

Also, the AI should take into account whether they are flying a small ship or a large ship. I'm pretty sure the majority of NPCs I encounter still believe they are in a Sidewinder, even if they are in a lumbering Anaconda. I sat back and watched some NPC vs NPC battles, and I hate to say it, but it was kinda ugly. I know this is a game, but it would be cool if the AI was graceful, even in combat. I swear I was watching Jar Jar Binks flying that NPC Anaconda, throttle stuck on full, spinning in circles, banging into things. I much rather watch Darth Maul fighting young Obi-wan, even if it isn't as "realistic".

Finally, diversity means different tactics, and even different personalities within each "genre" of piloting. Sure, some pilots are going to be aggressive "pedal to the metal" in-your-face combateers. But others, like myself, will be slower, methodical, using my "battleship" to position for full broadsides using turreted weapons, maneuvering around asteroids to let shields recharge, purposefully increasing the distance to take advantage of longer-range weapons, etc. And the typical miner should just "run" when it's obvious they are outgunned. Now an Elite miner might dodge between asteroids while dropping mines and using defensive rear-facing turrets, all while popping heatsinks and attempting a cool "Han Solo" getaway.

When every ship of every size and type does the same aggressive dance, it doesn't matter how "good" they are, it's still becomes boring gameplay. Not only boring, but silly. Watching an elephant try to do ballet may attract crowds to the circus, but only to laugh at.

Disclaimer - this post is not meant to mock the talents of the developers in charge of the AI. I have faith FDev can make the AI that I, and perhaps you, would like to see. And FWIW, many CMDRs fly like elephants doing ballet, too

 

[EponymousCowherd]

I want improved AI as well but every game has its own quirks with AI. Its not only Elite.

Yes, but the verbal interaction with NPC's in ED is at the level of 1980's text-based adventure games. Surely they can do better than that?

 

[Old Duck]

Yes, but the verbal interaction with NPC's in ED is at the level of 1980's text-based adventure games. Surely they can do better than that?

Especially since ED comms IS mostly text, and not recorded voice lines. I understand when you repetition in games like Skyrim where there are countless NPCs that have to be voiced, but even in that game, NPCs are context-aware.

Speaking of voice lines, I've yet to hear any songs written about me after saving the same dude who ran out of gas 50 times different times. At least in Skyrim there was a song about the Dragonborn

 

[deleteduser]

If you persist, it is currently possible to make NPC's enter an indefinite 360 degree loop.

Get behind them and match speeds, and they will just pull up at a constant rate until they're dead.

 

[Rickk Deckard]

I also think the NPC interactions need an urgent revamp. It doesn't make sense to see those crude and typical 80s interactions on a gem of a game like ED. Also, for me it sort of breaks immersion a bit. I tend to not even read what the NPCs are saying in order to keep my mind immersed in ED universe.

 

[EponymousCowherd]

Especially since ED comms IS mostly text, and not recorded voice lines. I understand when you repetition in games like Skyrim where there are countless NPCs that have to be voiced, but even in that game, NPCs are context-aware.

Speaking of voice lines, I've yet to hear any songs written about me after saving the same dude who ran out of gas 50 times different times. At least in Skyrim there was a song about the Dragonborn

NPC interactions in Skyrim and it's stablemate Fallout 4 are, as you say, context aware. Though reactions are limited to simply choosing from a number of options in a menu, the results can be very immersive. Some of the interactions with Cait (FO4) are actually quite emotional.

I'm not even asking for this level of sophistication. I understand that there are no persistent NPCs in ED (yet), so having conversations with them is pretty pointless. But a bit of context awareness and a greater catalogue of phrases would go a long way to improve the immersion of the game.

The ubiquitous utterances of NPC liner commanders are particularly tedious and immersion breaking. Yes, we know you're all in the top 1% of all liners, are all going to be delayed and are going to be cruising in-system for a while. Why does the entire system need to hear your PA announcements and why can't you say something original.

Some other things that would be really cool would be if Federation starports addressed you by your Fed rank "Welcome to our starport, Admiral", or Imperial ones by using the correct honorific for your rank "Welcome to our starport, Your Grace" (for a Duke)

 

[EWanderer]

yeah npc should really have a better system with more awareness and mabye even some responsivness from local chat messages.

 

[Speedcuffs]

Yep. I pay little attention to what they 'say' anymore. If it started coming up as a blank box, I probably wouldn't even notice.

 

[Hooplah]

Maybe a long list of suggested new NPC communications would be more interesting to the Devs. Complaining is easy on the Forum. Coming up with great suggestions takes a little more work...

 

[ProteinBar]

I think the NPC problems are more deep-seeded than just their repetitive voice lines. their behaviors are so limited and predictable that even adding hundreds of new lines will only feel refreshing for a week or two.

RES pirates, as an example, are not only tedious because of their limited lines. They spawn in unrealistically, haul straight towards you, and immediately scan you from 500m away. They don't take your ship type into account, they don't take your combat rank into account, they don't take their surroundings (other ships, especially system security) into account, they don't do anything that resembles intelligence. You can check modules of other ships without manifest scanning (which gives that ship the scan warning). if I don't have any cargo racks, or a refinery, or mining tools, and am covered in weapons, I'm probably not a great target for piracy... why are you scanning me? Not to mention I'm flying a ship that's rebuy is greater than your the cost of your ship, why are you sassing me on open comms dummy. but that's just it, they are WAY too dumb, regardless of how many voice lines they can say.

 

[BinakAlgo]

"Don't try to run with all that tasty cargo..."

Man, I'm moving 300 tons of biowaste, you have pretty weird tastes...

Also, I'm tired of the 4 lines for passenger ships, they repeat over and over and over and sometimes the same one again and again and again. "Remember, this ship is of the top 1% of it's class" "Remember, this ship is of the top 1% of it's class" "Remember, this ship is of the top 1% of it's class" "Remember, this ship is of the top 1% of it's class"

 

[EponymousCowherd]

I think the NPC problems are more deep-seeded than just their repetitive voice lines. their behaviors are so limited and predictable that even adding hundreds of new lines will only feel refreshing for a week or two.

RES pirates, as an example, are not only tedious because of their limited lines. They spawn in unrealistically, haul straight towards you, and immediately scan you from 500m away. They don't take your ship type into account, they don't take your combat rank into account, they don't take their surroundings (other ships, especially system security) into account, they don't do anything that resembles intelligence. You can check modules of other ships without manifest scanning (which gives that ship the scan warning). if I don't have any cargo racks, or a refinery, or mining tools, and am covered in weapons, I'm probably not a great target for piracy... why are you scanning me? Not to mention I'm flying a ship that's rebuy is greater than your the cost of your ship, why are you sassing me on open comms dummy. but that's just it, they are WAY too dumb, regardless of how many voice lines they can say.

Yup, they fly up to my Cutter in a poorly armed ship, scan it and ask "how do you make a living?", not noticing all the shooty-fighty gear she's carrying, turn around and fly away. A more realistic response would be "Shiiiiiit", and boost away as fast as possible. Even getting that far is pretty dumb. What do they thing a ship would be doing floating around in a RES without mining would be "doing for a living"?

 

[EponymousCowherd]

"Don't try to run with all that tasty cargo..."

Man, I'm moving 300 tons of biowaste, you have pretty weird tastes...

Also, I'm tired of the 4 lines for passenger ships, they repeat over and over and over and sometimes the same one again and again and again. "Remember, this ship is of the top 1% of it's class" "Remember, this ship is of the top 1% of it's class" "Remember, this ship is of the top 1% of it's class" "Remember, this ship is of the top 1% of it's class"

The big question is why they think the PA announcements intended for their passengers should be broadcast to the entire system?

 

[Ca$hback]

I want the illusion of persistent AI more than I want improved AI. Improved AI would be nice too.
I also want them to fix the phrase: "Good job I found you first" to either "Good thing I found you first" or "Good Job! I found you first."

 

[Iskariot]

No, I'm not talking about how they fight (or not). I'm talking about how they interact with PCs and their general intelligence.

The problem is that almost all verbal interaction with NPCs is one-way and is restricted to a very limited array of canned phrases. The first time a pirate in a RES says "I see all", it's pretty cool. The 500th time its just annoying. And the same goes for every other canned phrase they utter. Another problem is the way the canned phrased are used inappropriately. An NPC pirate that has been stripped of his shields and is 5% of hull away from going "pop" shouldn't still be saying "All this can stop if you just give me X tons of Y"

I do understand that this game isn't all about having realistic chats with AI NPCs, but the current interactions are extremely crude for an AAA game like ED and really need to be addressed.

This leads on to the second problem with NPC AI. They do things that even the stupidest human pilot would never do. A pirate flying a Cobra in a RES would not fly up to a fully armed and armoured Cutter and, on discovering said cutter had no cargo, would say "How do you make a living". It's ruddy obvious how said Cutter pilot makes his living and the Cobra pilot would be disappearing into the distance as fast as his boost would carry him.

So, even if we can't have real, intelligent NPCs that interact with us in a believable way, can we, at least, have NPC's that react realistically to the actual situation. So at least some NPCs who are about to die beg for mercy instead of continuing with the threats, so at least some NPCs, on encountering a much more powerful ship, behave in the way a real pilot might do when they have bitten off more than they can chew.

I agree that a few tweaks and improvements would be very nice.
It is indeed 'somewhat' odd and immersion breaking when an Adder tries to pirate my armed-to-the-teeth FDL or Anaconda. I can just vaporize them with the press of a button and they should act like they know that.
I like it when sometimes a pirate apologizes and hurries away with his tail between his legs. Little things like that are fun and add to the experience.

 

[EponymousCowherd]

Just to add another brain dead canned NPC comment that gets my goat and that's the "If you've got a problem with me, just say it. I don't appreciate being shot at" whine from NPC crew when they, stupidly, get themselves between their mothership and the target.


If I could "say it" I'd say the following.

First of all, it my fighter and I'll shoot it up if I want to.
Second, you aren't actually in the fighter.
Third, If you were a half-decent pilot you wouldn't get my fighter between me and my target.
Finally, if you ever criticise my flying again you will find yourself sacked and ​floating home.