In Open Play, is Killing Innocent CMDRs Fair?

[Archduke]

It's important that there is a means to enable and resolve player character conflict.
There will always be those with time, effort and mindset who will exploit every possible 'advantage'.
There will always be those who are too sensitive, thin-skinned, delicate or otherwise unable to accept consequences of their actions.
There are always those who feel they are entitled to different treatment than others or that their player character should somehow be considered differently.
There will always be ways to bend rules and to interpret potentials to suit ones own agenda.
There will always be those who rather cry pointlessly on forums about in-game activity rather than respond meaningfully in-game.
There will always be ways to justify or reason the assault of another vessel.
There will always be those who overstate their character's own importance in the universe or in regards to their own importance to FDev or E.
Griefing is a violation of the rules. If it's not griefing or cheating, then it's not necessarily any violation of rules.
There will alwauy be those that feel that player-character interactions must go how they want them to, with little regards for the other parties involved.

 

[FoxtrotF]

Fallacy Fallacy.

Just because I've used an ad hominem doesn't mean the points I have made are now wrong.

It is just shows unexperience in communication with other peoples.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

elite is a game...we have lots of different guns in said game...humans like to shoot things..you're in a open multiplayer server...you're going to get shot..

And if you'd taken the time to actually read the recent replies you'd have found that no-one is suggesting you shouldn't be, only that there should be in-game consequences. If you want no in-game consequences then I suggest you play a game that is PvP focussed (which Elite isn't).

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Fallacy Fallacy.

Just because I've used an ad hominem doesn't mean the points I have made are now wrong.

Name calling isn't ad hominem.

 

[Sir.Tj]

Let's knock off the personal comments/ name calling please.

 

[NeilF]

Ive been playing elite since 1985, pvp in elite dangerous open space is like the wild west live it, learn it and love it...fighting npcs is boring as hell after 700 hours...how do ppl do it for their entire elite save i have no idea..

elite is a game...we have lots of different guns in said game...humans like to shoot things..you're in a open multiplayer server...you're going to get shot...how hard is it to work that out..

All i see in this thread is silver/bronze overwatch players unable to grasp the mechanics of the game after 100hours..


msg ends++
last seen near quince making $$$$$$$$$ to shoot people with.

It's about as easy to grasp as the fact a game that allows players in dedicated combat ships to repeatedly destroy other players not interested in combat (at the time), and not even outfitted for combat, for no ingame reason/outcome, might need "improving"... Especially when said issue has now been going on for approaching three years and is quite probably driving more and more players out of OPEN.

It's about as easy to grasp as the premise that a sensible outcome/penalty for habitually "illegally" destroying other CMDRs (& NPCs?), even in anarchy systems, is as fair as it is realistic

 

[Archduke]

A large part of issue stems from FDev's long proven inability to correctly identify, scale and balance skill/challenge/reward.
They consistently vastly underrate the ability of pilot skill in PvE, consistently mismanaged the missions system (despitre giving it a complete overhaul and pages of posts regarding the issues). Provide completely arbitrary, inconsistent application to the concept of piracy and law/punishment.
In short, they are extremely short sighted and have no real idea or fail to appreciate ingenuity, skill and effectiveness of creative playerbase.

As wityh any MMO, there is a general spread of player ability and ambition.
Unlike many games there is no 'XP level' - therefore no gauge as to the effective and comparable 'ability' of any one player character to another. Currently, the best guess should be in terms of engineered mods and ship/outfit. Instead, FDev use the meaningless, trivial to acquire PF rankings.

There ought to be sufficient challenge bar scaled to meet this increase in PF ranking from zero to hero - therby maintaining an effective challenge appropriate to the capabilities of the player and in doing so, provide adequate interest level.
Not wishing to devolve into comparisons with EvE Online too much, but this is a game that does that scaling very effectively. There are larger and greater challenges from small agent jobs or defence whilst mining up to Wormhole running and beyond etc. At every stage of empowerment, tehre is a suitable level of challenge to meet.

E's biggest problem, is that there is not even close to an accurate (nor possibility of such) gauge of ability - therefore there is a flat, boring, catch-all challenge level.

How this becomes relevant is when considering the response to system security. Those who are not complete failures will find it trivial to outfit a ship more than capable of defeating the system defence forces. If FDev were to raise the bar sufficiently to match the most capable pilots, it would be too punishing on those who simply want to smuggle a black box or so.



____

It's about as easy to grasp as the fact a game that allows players in dedicated combat ships to repeatedly destroy other players not interested in combat (at the time), and not even outfitted for combat, for no ingame reason/outcome, might need "improving"... Especially when said issue has now been going on for approaching three years and is quite probably driving more and more players out of OPEN.

But, as many have alluded to previously - if you're playing in OPEN, you are essentially stating you are inviting potential conflict from other player characters. Whether their assault is warranted, justified or otherwise in the best possible taste is another matter entirely.
If you want to play in Open but aren't prepared for combat or are unbelievably bad at piloting, then simply employ an escort.

 

[lokvette]

Ive been playing elite since 1985, pvp in elite dangerous open space is like the wild west live it, learn it and love it...fighting npcs is boring as hell after 700 hours...how do ppl do it for their entire elite save i have no idea..

elite is a game...we have lots of different guns in said game...humans like to shoot things..you're in a open multiplayer server...you're going to get shot...how hard is it to work that out..

All i see in this thread is silver/bronze overwatch players unable to grasp the mechanics of the game after 100hours..


msg ends++
last seen near quince making $$$$$$$$$ to shoot people with.

Over a 1000 hrs and never shot anyone, but have laid many an NPC to rest. I understand the game mechanics just fine, I do however agree with the if your in open in a MP game you're going to meet people who might shoot you to get their jollies off.

Different strokes for different folks, it's not so hard to grasp now is it.

 

[Stigbob]

it looks like a good place to post this...

I have been away since 2.3 drop. I like to watch videos of my favorite CMDRs on youtube, and i even watch infamous CMDRs just to see what they're up to and what "drive" them into the delusional reasonless, free killing.
Surprisingly i can't find one of the most infamous one (he's not a wizard).
The account seems to have been deleted.

Anyway, I just wanted to know what is the ETA on the ganking and the griefing (i'm not talking about karma system) : Is it better or it's getting worse ?
Do you see an improvement compared to what we had few months ago ?

I mean with a specific group of players not playing anymore, the galaxy is a lot safer than it used to be.

Unfortunately the mass rage-quits by the louder PVP groups after they got their exploited modules taken away were just tantrums, they've come slinking back and are now justifying their cheating by comparing it to quince or clogging.

CG's, busy stations, engineers and anywhere you can be sure of seeing other people are still ganker/griefer hotspots. On the bright side since you last played the block function has been confirmed by the devs to be working as it was always intended, so you can edit specific players out of your game.

More on that here : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ners-advice-on-dealing-with-griefing-(part-2)

 

[Geist]

From the can unleash the worms!

From a personal point of view no not really. Bring on the karma system thingymajig! which will hopefully calm the activity of the sociopathic dullard collective and other likeminded individuals

 

[S3B4ST13N]

From the can unleash the worms!

From a personal point of view no not really. Bring on the karma system thingymajig! which will hopefully calm the activity of the sociopathic dullard collective and other likeminded individuals

Will it, or will some CMDR's see it as a challenge to get as much negative Karma as they possibly can?
Or try to find that nice sweet spot where they can murder people whilst maintaining a healthy balance with the po-po.

 

[stripealipe]

From the can unleash the worms!

From a personal point of view no not really. Bring on the karma system thingymajig! which will hopefully calm the activity of the sociopathic dullard collective and other likeminded individuals

This. Where are FD anyways? This is a thread that never goes away. How about some acknowledgement? Make high sec systems truly safe for those that want no trouble and make anarchy systems exactly that.. make the galaxy mean something so that you have to actually think about where you're piloting your ship, whether you're a trader not wanting trouble or a PVP'er with negative karma and a huge bounty on his head.

I'm guessing we're gonna be banging our heads over this one for some time though..

 

[GreyAreaUK]

This. Where are FD anyways? This is a thread that never goes away. How about some acknowledgement?

They have acknowledged it, but it's almost certainly a huge amount of work given that it'll have to tie into vast amounts of existing code.

 

[Maxmilian Czhilli]

Will it, or will some CMDR's see it as a challenge to get as much negative Karma as they possibly can?
Or try to find that nice sweet spot where they can murder people whilst maintaining a healthy balance with the po-po.

Yes, this will almost certainly happen. What is important is that it is effective enough to change the behaviour of some players. Sandro has been clear that the Karma system is about reducing the frequency of unwanted behaviours and not eliminating them entirely. Some players may well see negative Karma ratings as a measure of their e-peen and focus on that. Others still may adjust their play to find a sweet spot as you suggest. That's all fine if the frequency of unwanted behaviours is reduced in the population as a whole.

Balance will be tricky. I expect it will need a fair bit of tuning to get right. Ideally it should be tuneable via server side updates.

Karma can't come soon enough as far as I'm concerned. At least it will move the conversation on from where it's been stuck the last few years.

 

[SuBSynk]

Unfortunately the mass rage-quits by the louder PVP groups after they got their exploited modules taken away were just tantrums, they've come slinking back and are now justifying their cheating by comparing it to quince or clogging.

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To be fair many have also not returned, "the wizard" is now playing Albion online last time i checked and many other prominent "PvPers" have not logged in for a while.

 

[NeilF]

But, as many have alluded to previously - if you're playing in OPEN, you are essentially stating you are inviting potential conflict from other player characters. Whether their assault is warranted, justified or otherwise in the best possible taste is another matter entirely.
If you want to play in Open but aren't prepared for combat or are unbelievably bad at piloting, then simply employ an escort.

Agreed, but it's hardly much to hope for a modicum of sensible/fair mechanics to be involved surely? Is it unrealistic/unfair to assume if a CMDR is simply camping out areas and clubbing other CMDRs over, and over, and over, that some significant negative outcomes should slowly be accrued for such behaviour?

Is it unrealistic/unfair to assume the Pilots Federation who, "have a zero tolerance policy regarding dishonourable behaviour among its members," would start taking action against such a member?

Is it unrealistic/unfair to assume Insurance Companies (who undoubtably are linked to significant financial groups) might not take a dimm view of an individuals costing them a fortune, and take action?

Is it unrealistic/unfair to therefore assume habitual illegal destruction (yes even in anarchy systems) might lead to negative outcomes such as docking permission being denied in more and more locations? Indeed entire systems being denied? You being highlighted as a known psychopath to other CMDRs?


Personally I think it's unrealistic/unfair that a CMDR can repeated (illegally) destroy other CMDRs over and over and over, even being as toxic as to farm explorers at busy locations, simply for their own cynical amusement, safe in the knowledge basically no negative outcome will befall them. Indeed they can log back into the game at such a location after an hour, with a new batch of explorers to club, without having a single blemish on their most likely clean record.

When entering Open is it realistic/fair to sign up to this? No... We're still in nigh on three year old placeholder gameplay that's still not fit for purpose IMHO. And CMDRs are simply trying to make the best of it they can...


As for the notion of "employ an escort," let's be realistic. What's interesting about escorting a player for hours and hours, most likely getting bored stiff, on the off chance of some PvP? Now, if the game was to actually (after three years) be orchestrating some more solid and interesting PvP via Powerplay, dedicated Open CGs, and/or missions, then maybe escorting other players might be interesting. eg: Escorting passenger ships to a station to get civilians out of the system, while other CMDRs are trying to prevent this... But instead of such mechanics beign added to create more interesting and involved PvE and PvP we get development thrown at the likes of CQC and Multi-crew.

 

[Stigbob]

To be fair many have also not returned, "the wizard" is now playing Albion online last time i checked and many other prominent "PvPers" have not logged in for a while.

Every cloud has a silver lining.

 

[A D]

Agreed, but it's hardly much to hope for a modicum of sensible/fair mechanics to be involved surely? Is it unrealistic/unfair to assume if a CMDR is simply camping out areas and clubbing other CMDRs over, and over, and over, that some significant negative outcomes should slowly be accrued for such behaviour?

Is it unrealistic/unfair to assume the Pilots Federation who, "have a zero tolerance policy regarding dishonourable behaviour among its members," would start taking action against such a member?

Is it unrealistic/unfair to assume Insurance Companies (who undoubtably are linked to significant financial groups) might not take a dimm view of an individuals costing them a fortune, and take action?

Is it unrealistic/unfair to therefore assume habitual illegal destruction (yes even in anarchy systems) might lead to negative outcomes such as docking permission being denied in more and more locations? Indeed entire systems being denied? You being highlighted as a known psychopath to other CMDRs?


Personally I think it's unrealistic/unfair that a CMDR can repeated (illegally) destroy other CMDRs over and over and over, even being as toxic as to farm explorers at busy locations, simply for their own cynical amusement, safe in the knowledge basically no negative outcome will befall them. Indeed they can log back into the game at such a location after an hour, with a new batch of explorers to club, without having a single blemish on their most likely clean record.

When entering Open is it realistic/fair to sign up to this? No... We're still in nigh on three year old placeholder gameplay that's still not fit for purpose IMHO. And CMDRs are simply trying to make the best of it they can...


As for the notion of "employ an escort," let's be realistic. What's interesting about escorting a player for hours and hours, most likely getting bored stiff, on the off chance of some PvP? Now, if the game was to actually (after three years) be orchestrating some more solid and interesting PvP via Powerplay, dedicated Open CGs, and/or missions, then maybe escorting other players might be interesting. eg: Escorting passenger ships to a station to get civilians out of the system, while other CMDRs are trying to prevent this... But instead of such mechanics beign added to create more interesting and involved PvE and PvP we get development thrown at the likes of CQC and Multi-crew.

Though I agree with your comments, what you or I think is unfair matters not the least. All that matters is that game allows the game play you describe and players who engage in that behaviour understand this more than most. The problem is not with the game, but with those individuals who lack the self control or maturity to play nicely with others and there is little that can be done about that.

 

[Old Duck]

Make high sec systems truly safe for those that want no trouble and make anarchy systems exactly that.. make the galaxy mean something so that you have to actually think about where you're piloting your ship, whether you're a trader not wanting trouble or a PVP'er with negative karma and a huge bounty on his head.

This is what I'd like to see. Currently High Security Systems do not feel "safe", but on the flip-side, Anarchy systems don't feel "dangerous" either. I almost chuck thinking about the "Abort" option that comes up when you're about to visit an Anarchy, as if it's somehow way more dangerous than any other system. Now if there was an abort option that popped up and said, "Griefers in Target System", that would actually mean something!

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

So Sidewinder exploit fix (v1 no doubt) and Pilot Fed Bounty introduced. Thoughts?