Incentive(s) for playing in Open..

[Neutronium]

As the title suggests there can be some incentives for newcomers and care-bears (like me for e.g.) who prefer the comfort and safety of solo / PvE groups to join Open.
I will start with exploration and stop there because that is my main game style atm so naturally the idea(s) I am about to lay down here are inspired by exploration. A similar thinking can be applied to trading, missions and combat* (*combat is a little more complicated though).:
So lets begin:
Right now the poor explorers pay all the price for being ganked / griefed by the mighty powerful ganker(s) / griefer(s) (who most of the time act in wings and / or squadrons / groups). Not only they loose their ship and are faced with their rebuy cost (that is to be expected and must be prepared for when in open), they also loose ALL of their explo data, both the data themselves and their value AND the distance they have covered is also lost as they are instantly teleported to their last docked location. So if they are returning from a long exploration trip (that possible took a real life year or more) all this is gone like tears in the rain..
It DOESN'T have to be that way. It SHOULDN'T be that way. It is just a game after all.. and therefore it shouldn't be so insanely punishing.
What I suggest is simple and straight-forward: Introduce insurance cost to the exploration data and the re-spawning at the point of destruction.
For example: Let the explorer retain the lost exploration data at the cost of their value (maximum penalty) or a fraction of that*( There could be a screen similar to rebuy screen where the cmdr simply chooses which data they want to keep (and consequently loose their value) and which to discard). Similarly, using the lore of galactic logistics, the cmdr's ship can respawn at the point of destruction by paying the proportional & appropriate fee for their ship to be transferred there taking into account the distance between the nearest station (or the station the player has their ships stored) and the point of destruction.
What I am essentially suggesting is a way to recover the huge amounts of time lost by trading the lost time for credits. I believe it is a fair trade. Because the game itself is a huge time sinker and exploration is a big part of that.
So what do you think? Is this a fair proposal? If yes do you think it will help drive more people in open if implemented by Frontier? Do you think the griefer/ganker should also pay a fee?

 

[xondk]

Unfortunately, you'll likely see this thread devolve into something akin to that "Why should explorers get protected, they should risk something!"
Personally I play almost exclusively in open, and I've rarely had a problem with getting ganked or similar, the main problem is related to people near and around points where gankers can expect a high population of people and thus random people to kill.
The moment you go away from those locations encounter rate drops to near zero.

 

[Neutronium]

Unfortunately, you'll likely see this thread devolve into something akin to that "Why should explorers get protected, they should risk something!"
Personally I play almost exclusively in open, and I've rarely had a problem with getting ganked or similar, the main problem is related to people near and around points where gankers can expect a high population of people and thus random people to kill.
The moment you go away from those locations encounter rate drops to near zero.

But the balance is huugely in favor of the attacker. The poor explorer is not only loosing their ship but also the xyz amount of time they invested in exploration. And this amount of time is disproportional with the loss of the ship. The attacker has nothing to loose. The victim looses everything..

 

[xondk]

But the balance is huugely in favor of the attacker. The poor explorer is not only loosing their ship but also the xyz amount of time they invested in exploration. And this amount of time is disproportional with the loss of the ship. The attacker has nothing to loose. The victim looses everything..

Oh don't misunderstand I am on your side, attackers have a gigantic advantage, I'm just saying prep yourself for resistance.

The hurt to explorers above everyone else is insanely out of proportions

 

[sewerratuk]

Oh don't misunderstand I am on your side, attackers have a gigantic advantage, I'm just saying prep yourself for resistance.

The hurt to explorers above everyone else is insanely out of proportions

Just post a link to any DG2 thread to save everyone the bother of typing it out again, and again, and again, and... well you get the drift

 

[wetwire]

Upon ship destruction all data and cargo are lost. This applies to Traders who lose cargo, Bounty Hunters who lose bounties, Explorers lose scan data. The only exception to this rule i have seen is some missions allow for ship destruction but do not cause the mission to fail.
The true issue this always boils down to is time investment which the game does not see as a commodity. My assumption is ED is centered around increasing game time. This is a metric FD can use to gauge value of the product. If the total of players + game time increases or decrease gives them one tool to weigh the productivity.
I doubt we will see much change regarding the loss, instead they will seek other options as such when they revamped crime and punishment.

 

[Jaggid Edje]

I propose that exploration data have 10% of normal value unless you turn it in in open, that'd be a great incentive for explorers to want to go into open.
On the flip side, I also propse that exploration data be made salvageable by the aggressor if the explorer gets blown up. That would get rid of gankers/griefers entirely and make room for a new role, the Data Pirate.

Obviously I'm at least partially joking...but I don't personally think the problem is lack of incentive to go to open, but rather lack of a downside for staying in solo/PG. It's the risk vs. reward paradigm...right now explorers have no risk at all in solo and make bank at it.

 

[wetwire]

I propose that exploration data have 10% of normal value unless you turn it in in open and that it be made salvageable by the aggressor if the explorer gets blown up. That would get rid of gankers/griefers entirely and make room for a new role, the Data Pirate.

I would make a minor change, if the explorer gets blown up so does the data, a Data pirate needs a surviving ship to extract from, much like a typical pirate needs the cargo ship to remain alive so they can steal the cargo.

 

[Jaggid Edje]

I would make a minor change, if the explorer gets blown up so does the data, a Data pirate needs a surviving ship to extract from, much like a typical pirate needs the cargo ship to remain alive so they can steal the cargo.

Oh, yes, I like that much better! Brilliant even.

 

[Bigmaec]

Handing in your explo stuff in solo/PG is totally legit and makes sense from a risk/reward pov.
It also isn't damaging all too much to BGS or powerplay.
But it usually is totally unnecessary except you have an explo CG or you want to hand in at certain high risk systems.
And even then you can mitigate the risks by building open fit ships and having a certain situational awareness.

I'd rather see an incentive in terms of BGS or powerplay, making open much more effective for actions which are directly competitive
versus other groups of players. For your individual CMDR the modes are an fantastic thing to balance your own preference of interaction and Danger.

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

The incentive for me, is the chance for player interaction, hostile or not. The excitement, or whatever.

Anyway, none of this is an issue with a halfway competent build and basic evasion skills.

More often than not, I’m in the bubble, flying PvP-optimized builds.

At the moment, however, I’m out towards Colonia in a moderately defended (But INCREDIBLY soft compared to a PvP build) Anaconda.

I can still jump just short of 70ly, and I haven’t a care in the world.

The odds of seeing anyone out here is next to zero, unless I’m at a port or place of interest. In those areas, all it takes is a quick glance at your sensors to tell if someone is in the area.

Look at them in supercruise. Are they looking at you? Do they have weapons? Are they a hollow triangle on sensors? If not, are they getting in position to be a hollow triangle?

If you got a bad feeling, jump away before it comes a problem. It’s cake, man.

 

[wetwire]

To be honest from my experiencing "ganking/griefing" and the like are not in it for profit. Player destruction nets you no measurable bonus. Perhaps a little to combat rank, but i doubt that is the reason for attacking lower rank under powered players.
Looking to add incentive or a better reason to attack other players seems reasonable for those looking to gain from the experience.
The type of players we are talking about are not attacking for any in game profit or reason. They preform the actions because they can.
I won't get into the physiological aspects of why some players prefer this method of gameplay, but the solution needs to start from the top down.
FD wants ED to be "blaze your own path" or basically play how you want. If they want to reduce or punish a type of game play it will conflict with the games moto.
FD would have to openly claim one type of game play is preferred over another.
Thus far they have answered this issue by creating multiple game modes, Open, Private and Solo.
They have yet to display any desire to promote one mode over any others likely because they know once they do, the above issue will become more problematic because they don't want to condone one play style over any other.

I suggest let the community decide how to deal with it by giving CMDR's in game tools to combat actions against them.
At the rebuy screen CMDR's should have the option to report a crime against them (if they did not return fire) which applies to a more robust notoriety system.
A notoriety system that allows other players to get involved with. as Notoriety increases so does your public awareness (the ability for other players to track the "criminal")
Starting off small as it notifies others who enter the system in which the crime was reported, then as notoriety increases expands to surrounding systems, then controlling faction. ending with a noticeable galaxy marker for the criminal. With the slow decay of Notoriety currently in game a "criminal" with find it harder and harder to continue on the warpath as more and more player bounty hunters start closing in looking for a good payday.

 

[Marra Morgan]

The incentive to play in Open should be about the possibilities presented by meeting other commanders out there.

If you're after more credits or mitigated losses, maybe Open isn't the right mode for you.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Explorers could choose to be more crafty. For example: stash a "Bubble ready" ship in an out of the way place (perhaps obtain the permit to an out of the way permit locked system) and switch into that ship before going to turn in data somewhere risky.

Or, don't go to that risky place if it's somewhere like Shinrarta. They don't deserve your data anyway.

 

[Neutronium]

Oh don't misunderstand I am on your side, attackers have a gigantic advantage, I'm just saying prep yourself for resistance.

The hurt to explorers above everyone else is insanely out of proportions

That was the incentive of writing this thread. Not to reduce the danger of exploration. That is why I only proposed this for ship destruction due to PvP interaction. Not for PvE or stupidity of the explorer because they rammed their ship onto some high g world or inside a ring system.
Also I have not proposed anything against the ganker. They get their kill. Fine. Bravo. Well Done. But is it the fact that they will deprieve their victim of ALL of their effort that they are thrilled about? If that is their trophy then OK. I am wasting my time here..

 

[Jaggid Edje]

If you use ED Market Connector and install the EDR plugin it warns you as you jump into a system where there are known gankers hanging out (actually, warns of any known players who are interdicting, etc., not just gankers).

Considering ED MC has some good exploration plugins as well as the ability to auto update to ED Star Map (I assume that site is popular with explorers?), I can't imagine why any explorer would NOT want ED MC installed. Just need to take the next step and install EDR as well and bang, you get forewarning of potential ganking so that you can avoid it.

Open is not as hazardous as this thread might suggest. You just need to use the tools available, plan accordingly, pay attention, and be proactive rather than reactive. Incidentally that's all good advice no matter what you're doing.

 

[Neutronium]

Where do we get the EDR plugin you mention from? I am using EDMC since its initial release - never heard of the EDR thing...

 

[Sylow]

Upon ship destruction all data and cargo are lost. This applies to Traders who lose cargo, Bounty Hunters who lose bounties, Explorers lose scan data. The only exception to this rule i have seen is some missions allow for ship destruction but do not cause the mission to fail.
The true issue this always boils down to is time investment which the game does not see as a commodity. My assumption is ED is centered around increasing game time. This is a metric FD can use to gauge value of the product. If the total of players + game time increases or decrease gives them one tool to weigh the productivity.
I doubt we will see much change regarding the loss, instead they will seek other options as such when they revamped crime and punishment.

But time IS the difference. Loosing bounty vouchers after 45 minutes in a RES means i lost the work of 45 minutes. In the unlikely case that a ganker can destroy my RES-fitted ship. Loosing a trade ship costs me like the last 10 minutes since i launched and a bit of cargo. Which comes cheaply enough. But an exlorer, coming back from the void after spending several weeks RL (and dozens of hour of gameplay time) there really looses a lot.

As long as "ship lost, all lost" is how things are implemented, that won't change. So it's extremely reasonable for an explorer to do that in solo. Why let somebody take away many hours of your work, just so he can feel superior for a few seconds, basking in the "skill" of being in a combat fitted ship instead of an exploration ship?

 

[Jaggid Edje]

Where do we get the EDR plugin you mention from? I am using EDMC since its initial release - never heard of the EDR thing...

GitHub - lekeno/edr: ED Recon is an EDMC plugin for Elite Dangerous whose purpose is to provide intel about other commanders and in-game guidance for traders, explorers, bounty-hunters, and powerplay pledges.

ED Recon is an EDMC plugin for Elite Dangerous whose purpose is to provide intel about other commanders and in-game guidance for traders, explorers, bounty-hunters, and powerplay pledges. - GitHub ...

github.com

 

[Neutronium]

The incentive to play in Open should be about the possibilities presented by meeting other commanders out there.

If you're after more credits or mitigated losses, maybe Open isn't the right mode for you.

I think I made it pretty obvious it was about time we were talking here. Not Credits. In fact a blown up explorer in open is going to pay a huge amount of credits to keep their data is what I proposed..