Increase Ammo Counts

[Red Zephyr]

With NPCs getting a little sturdier (notably in CZs), and even starting to use things like prismatic shields, I think it's time to increase the ammo pools for weapons. If shields aren't getting tweaked or nerfed any time soon, and player cutters have been nigh indestructible for some time, an ammo increase is not much to ask for.

I would recommend an ammo increase of 50% across the board for kinetic weapons, but even a 100% increase would not be unreasonable for some weapons, like cannons and shock cannons. Other weapons, like plasma or rails, could use a smaller increase. Time to kill on ships is generally getting longer, and a quick band-aid solution would be to give us more ammo. I know we can synth, and we likely still will have to with this modest increase in ammo I'm proposing.


Please consider.


EDIT: Not all weapons need the ammo boost. Explosive weapons are fine.
The issue is not that combat has become too difficult. The issue is that it is simply taking longer to kill combat NPCs, and a simple ammo increase would help alleviate this problem in lieu of a total rebalancing.

 

[Misty_Dark]

why are you wasting ammo taking down shields? isn't that was lasers are for? `Could it be that that we need to rethink our loadouts instead?

 

[CMDR Corlas]

why are you wasting ammo taking down shields? isn't that was lasers are for? `Could it be that that we need to rethink our loadouts instead?

No, that's not what lasers are "for". It's just something they can be good at.

I agree with the OP for a lot of weapons - their ammo needs to be increased. Particularly for railguns and shock cannons.

 

[Red Zephyr]

With engineering, even MC's are better against shields than lasers, except for the ammo count. My point is that player ships have become very tough, and now NPC ships are starting to get a little tougher too, but non-laser weapons are stuck having to synth ammo several times to keep up.

 

[Archonsod]

With engineering, even MC's are better against shields than lasers, except for the ammo count. My point is that player ships have become very tough, and now NPC ships are starting to get a little tougher too, but non-laser weapons are stuck having to synth ammo several times to keep up.

The problem is that MC's (and to an extent all ammo weapons) don't seem to be significantly better at shredding hull than lasers, which leaves them being somewhat redundant in a CZ these days. It doesn't seem to take much longer to burn through the hull with a laser compared to an MC with the only drawback being the heat management; meanwhile the MC doesn't do anything particularly well and has the drawback of requiring you to quit the CZ to rearm at some point.Which kind of leads to the question of what the point of the MC is at present.

 

[Tiili]

Reverberating cascade mines seem to work pretty well against these infinite SCB spamming NPCs, I save my missiles and rails for when the bubble pops.

 

[Lestat]

why are you wasting ammo taking down shields? isn't that was lasers are for? `Could it be that that we need to rethink our loadouts instead?

I have to agree with you. Even if the weapon uses Ammo. To waste Ammo on shields.

With engineering, even MC's are better against shields than lasers, except for the ammo count. My point is that player ships have become very tough, and now NPC ships are starting to get a little tougher too, but non-laser weapons are stuck having to synth ammo several times to keep up.

Remember laziness is not a skill. It never will be a skill. If you want to stay in a combat zone longer. Maybe you should look into mining Materials so you can stay in combat longer. Like Misty_Dark said. Maybe you should mix your weapons so you use Less MC and more lasers so you can stay in combat longer.

 

[Red Zephyr]

Remember laziness is not a skill. It never will be a skill. If you want to stay in a combat zone longer. Maybe you should look into mining Materials so you can stay in combat longer. Like Misty_Dark said. Maybe you should mix your weapons so you use Less MC and more lasers so you can stay in combat longer.

This has nothing to do with laziness or skill. Synthesis is not a skill. It's a clunky mechanic that I would like to do a little less often as ship health pools get inflated while ammo pools stay behind. Yes, I understand that lasers have unlimited shots, and that they are decent against shields, but sometimes I like kinetic builds (which, with engineering, will do very well against shields too). Increasing our ammo counts will not likely make synthesis irrelevant, it will just let us do it less often. Further, this inflation of ship health is on player ships too, and in PvP lasers are crap except for some utility purposes.


For the record, I would also like to see a buff to laser weapons to make them more attractive, damage wise, but ammo weapons need a little more ammo, regardless. I'm only asking for 50% more.

 

[Lestat]

This has nothing to do with laziness or skill. Synthesis is not a skill. It's a clunky mechanic that I would like to do a little less often as ship health pools get inflated while ammo pools stay behind.

Face this fact. Mining is a skill. If you want to fight for a longer time then you have to farm for Minerals. Which take time effort.

Yes, I understand that lasers have unlimited shots, and that they are decent against shields,

They are not unlimited. They take fuel to use. You just don't notice it much in larger ship builds.

but sometimes I like kinetic builds (which, with engineering, will do very well against shields too). Increasing our ammo counts will not likely make synthesis irrelevant, it will just let us do it less often. Further, this inflation of ship health is on player ships too, and in PvP lasers are crap except for some utility purposes.

For the record, I would also like to see a buff to laser weapons to make them more attractive, damage wise, but ammo weapons need a little more ammo, regardless. I'm only asking for 50% more.

Listen Mining for the mineral is easy. Most of them are common Materials. So you have 2 choices. Mine or go back to the nearest station and buy more ammo.

 

[Red Zephyr]

Face this fact. Mining is a skill. If you want to fight for a longer time then you have to farm for Minerals. Which take time effort.

They are not unlimited. They take fuel to use. You just don't notice it much in larger ship builds.
Listen Mining for the mineral is easy. Most of them are common Materials. So you have 2 choices. Mine or go back to the nearest station and buy more ammo.

Mining/farming is not a skill, it's an activity. Material farming is an activity that doesn't take a great deal of skill, at that. It's also beside the point. I have plenty of materials.


Lasers don't take fuel. You might be thinking of rails or plasmas with 'plasma slug' experimental, which are also beside the point of this thread.


I'll reiterate for you: I'm fine with going back to the station to restock, or even using synthesis on occasion (like PvP), but I'd like a slightly larger ammo pool so I can stay in combat a little longer between restocks in light of ships generally getting tankier. It's really not as big a request as you are making it out to be.


I play on Open. If I go to a CZ, I'll happily do my PvE grind for the BGS, but I also may encounter a CMDR sometimes. I want a little more staying power with a loadout that is more effective than the usual PvE build with lasers, and is fun to use. Notice I'm not asking for a damage buff across the board to deal with health inflation. I just want more ammo, which relies on the same level of skill as we already have, but allows for longer application of it.

 

[Lestat]

Mining/farming is not a skill, it's an activity. Material farming is an activity that doesn't take a great deal of skill, at that. It's also beside the point. I have plenty of materials.

Then ask your self this. Why am I able to play hours on hours in combat without whining about my Ammo stocks. It because I can keep refilling my ammo using Synthesis. Remember laziness is not a skill. While mining is a SKILL. You can ignore it or argue about it. But face this fact I balance combat with Mining.

Lasers don't take fuel. You might be thinking of rails or plasmas with 'plasma slug' experimental, which are also beside the point of this thread.

Maybe a good test is to try it in a sidewinder. I seem to lose fuel in laser fights. I have a new account which shows just lasers and my fuel cell still runs low. I could be wrong. But what do I know I running 3 accounts?

I'll reiterate for you: I'm fine with going back to the station to restock, or even using synthesis on occasion (like PvP), but I'd like a slightly larger ammo pool so I can stay in combat a little longer between restocks in light of ships generally getting tankier. It's really not as big a request as you are making it out to be.

There a song for you. By Rolling stones. Can't always get what you want. With Elite a SKILLED COMBAT player will use an Elite system to get what they want. For me, I can spend hours on hours in combat and not worry about ammo. But I WORKED for it. While you are asking for an Easy mode.

I play on Open. If I go to a CZ, I'll happily do my PvE grind for the BGS, but I also may encounter a CMDR sometimes. I want a little more staying power with a loadout that is more effective than the usual PvE build with lasers, and is fun to use. Notice I'm not asking for a damage buff across the board to deal with health inflation. I just want more ammo, which relies on the same level of skill as we already have, but allows for longer application of it.

I don't care if you are in Open, Solo or Mobius server. It not about this topic. YOU have to use common sense before you enter into combat.

 

[Red Zephyr]

Then ask your self this. Why am I able to play hours on hours in combat without whining about my Ammo stocks. It because I can keep refilling my ammo using Synthesis. Remember laziness is not a skill. While mining is a SKILL. You can ignore it or argue about it. But face this fact I balance combat with Mining.

I don't know if this is a difference in language or what, but neither synthesis nor material farming are skills. Anyone can use synthesis, and material farming is a pretty mindless exercise in most instances. You don't balance combat with 'mining,' you only supplement it with material gathering. Again, that is not a skill, as there is no talent or secret to it. Most of us have done it, and it's not an adequate solution to this problem.

Maybe a good test is to try it in a sidewinder. I seem to lose fuel in laser fights. I have a new account which shows just lasers and my fuel cell still runs low. I could be wrong. But what do I know I running 3 accounts?

You lose fuel because your ship consumes fuel in order to fly. Your UI even says how much fuel it consumes per hour, and the Sidewinder has the smallest fuel tank. It's not your lasers.

There a song for you. By Rolling stones. Can't always get what you want. With Elite a SKILLED COMBAT player will use an Elite system to get what they want. For me, I can spend hours on hours in combat and not worry about ammo. But I WORKED for it. While you are asking for an Easy mode.

I'm not asking for an easy mode. I don't fly a Cutter. I'm just asking for a modest increase in ammo for ammo-reliant weapons while health pools on ships are creeping upward. I basically want my ships' capabilities to keep up as the difficulty curve changes.

I don't care if you are in Open, Solo or Mobius server. It not about this topic. YOU have to use common sense before you enter into combat.

It is on topic. I made the topic. Common sense is not always good sense, and if time-to-kill is generally increasing, it makes good sense to increase ammo pools a little to keep kinetic and other weapons viable. It wouldn't change the difficulty at all. I'm sorry if you think material farming takes effort. Combat for material gathering is fun, and more ammo would let me do more of that too.

 

[Lestat]

I don't know if this is a difference in language or what, but neither synthesis nor material farming are skills. Anyone can use synthesis, and material farming is a pretty mindless exercise in most instances. You don't balance combat with 'mining,' you only supplement it with material gathering. Again, that is not a skill, as there is no talent or secret to it. Most of us have done it, and it's not an adequate solution to this problem.

Yet asking for Adding 50% ammo is? That lack of any effort on your part is the only problem.

I'm not asking for an easy mode. I don't fly a Cutter. I'm just asking for a modest increase in ammo for ammo-reliant weapons while health pools on ships are creeping upward. I basically want my ships' capabilities to keep up as the difficulty curve changes.

We are both Combat players. You are complaining about running out of ammo and asking for an easy mode. I took my time and effort to earn to hold a large amount of ammo. So I earn to stay in an area as long as I want. I earn that right. You, however, have not. I loving the fact I can synthesis 75 ammo refills on most of my ammo types.

It is on topic. I made the topic. Common sense is not always good sense, and if time-to-kill is generally increasing, it makes good sense to increase ammo pools a little to keep kinetic and other weapons viable.

You know ideas like Ammo rack increase Ammo is lack of common sense. Here why. We don't want PvP to have an easy mode. If they want a large amount of ammo. They have to EARN IT and not have an EASY MODE.

It wouldn't change the difficulty at all. I'm sorry if you think material farming takes effort. Combat for material gathering is fun, and more ammo would let me do more of that too.

Then why not follow your own words. If you think Materials farming takes no effort than you would have no problem collecting your own materials for your own ammo.

 

[Fake Newts]

Absolutely agree with OP. If you want to do CZs in fun smalls/mediums ships ammo counts need to increase or you just have to go back to an incredibly boring efficient-beam pve staple. CZs are much improved overall but by nature of how they now work, and how much tankier all the ships are it effectively closes off lots of loadouts that used to be viable and fun.

You are complaining about running out of ammo and asking for an easy mode.

Please stop doing the classic Forum blunder of equating time spent to difficulty. "Easy Mode" is when you use auto aim, assists or cheats to make a game easier. Forcing people to drive around in go-karts engaging in entirely risk free, skill-less non-gameplay for hours at a time in order to use a weaponset they find fun is not a question of easy or hard, it's a question of asinine or amusing.

For reals. Difficulty does not equal Time, and Patience does not equal Skill.

 

[Fake Newts]

Face this fact. Mining is a skill.

Listen Mining for the mineral is easy.

Dude, pick one.

 

[Red Zephyr]

Yet asking for Adding 50% ammo is? That lack of any effort on your part is the only problem.

Again, I have plenty of materials. I do use synthesis, but it's a clunky mechanic that we will have to use more often as ships generally increase in health pools. I'd rather use it the same amount by having ammo pools increase modestly.

We are both Combat players. You are complaining about running out of ammo and asking for an easy mode. I took my time and effort to earn to hold a large amount of ammo. So I earn to stay in an area as long as I want. I earn that right. You, however, have not. I loving the fact I can synthesis 75 ammo refills on most of my ammo types.

You see, not all combat is equal. PvE is really quite easy, and now that NPC are getting engineered, it's not really becoming more difficult--it's just taking longer. You said you don't care about what mode we play on, which tells me you're not into Open so much. You find a CMDR in a PvP Cutter and let me know how convenient synthesis is.

You know ideas like Ammo rack increase Ammo is lack of common sense. Here why. We don't want PvP to have an easy mode. If they want a large amount of ammo. They have to EARN IT and not have an EASY MODE.

I still don't know if you understand what skill is, but increasing ammo does not make the game easier or harder. It's just a matter of time-to-kill and convenience. Skill is in the flying and shooting, and I just want to do that longer.

I don't know why you're being so obtuse about this. An ammo increase is a matter of helping ammo-reliant weapons keep up with general health-inflation on ships. It's not the same as a damage buff, which would make killing easier.
Let me illustrate this for you with an example.

-- Cannons currently have 120 shots. Increasing it to 180 shots (+50%) would not break the game. Those additional 60 shots won't make synthesis completely irrelevant. It won't alter the difficulty curve. It's won't alter DPS numbers. It's just a convenience. By the way, I think the huge has only 100 shots. 150 is not too much to ask.

-- Shock Cannons have 240 ammo. For a weapon that shoots like a multi-cannon, that drains pretty quickly. They can't be engineered. No wonder they don't see much use. Even bumping it up to 360 shots might not fix that. 480, though?

-- Enforcers have 1000 shots. Normal multi-cannons have 2100. Bumping it up to 1500 on Enforcers would still maintain an ammo difference.

Not all weapons need an ammo buff, honestly. Missiles and torpedoes, mines, and maybe multi-cannons can do without. I know some people want more rail gun shots, but 50% might be too much there.

 

[Lestat]

If Red Zephyr thinks mining so easy. Here an idea. Go to a high Res site or Haz site. Stay in that zone area and try mining. With refinery, mining lasers collectors and prospector. Every ship that wants your cargo either want you to drop your cargo or take them down. I think you would rethink your mining comment. Unless you still think Combat mining is lack of skill.

But the way you talk. My guess is your idea of mining is fly away from the combat zone so you don't have to deal with the NPCs Pirates.

 

[Red Zephyr]

If Red Zephyr thinks mining so easy. Here an idea. Go to a high Res site or Haz site. Stay in that zone area and try mining. With refinery, mining lasers collectors and prospector. Every ship that wants your cargo either want you to drop your cargo or take them down. I think you would rethink your mining comment. Unless you still think Combat mining is lack of skill.

Uh, yeah, combat mining is easy. Or, at least it was. I haven't done mining in 3.3 yet, but I have done it before in a Python. Mining by itself was dreadfully boring, so HazRES was the only way to keep it exciting. Thank you for assuming my playstyle, though.

If your experience is with unengineered NPC's, then you're missing the point. Go to a CZ, CNB, or a Pirate Activity Detected USS (in a Civil Unrest or Lockdown system), and see how you enjoy synthesis. Ships are slightly more difficult with their engineering--which is awesome--but mostly they just take longer to kill. You know, go do some real combat.

But the way you talk. My guess is your idea of mining is fly away from the combat zone so you don't have to deal with the NPCs Pirates.

What exactly did I say to give you that impression? Find the quote.



Once again, to make it very clear: The issue is not that combat has become too difficult. The issue is that it is simply taking longer to kill combat NPCs, and a simple ammo increase would help alleviate this problem in lieu of a total rebalancing.

 

[Lestat]

What exactly did I say to give you that impression? Find the quote.

why don't we look at your older posts on this topic.

Mining/farming is not a skill, it's an activity. Material farming is an activity that doesn't take a great deal of skill, at that. It's also beside the point. I have plenty of materials.

I don't know if this is a difference in language or what, but neither synthesis nor material farming are skills. Anyone can use synthesis, and material farming is a pretty mindless exercise in most instances. You don't balance combat with 'mining,' you only supplement it with material gathering. Again, that is not a skill, as there is no talent or secret to it. Most of us have done it, and it's not an adequate solution to this problem.

See when I noticed you did NOT say even the Haz or High Res sites have Mining has no skill. Tell me you either never mined ore in those locations or you mined outside those sites. Or it would have been mentioned already.

Uh, yeah, combat mining is easy. Or, at least it was. I haven't done mining in 3.3 yet, but I have done it before in a Python. Mining by itself was dreadfully boring, so HazRES was the only way to keep it exciting. Thank you for assuming my playstyle, though.

See this still seem fabricated after claiming mining is easy and has no skilled and It still doesn't have much info on mining. Because if you really did mining in Haz, High zones you would had more detail info. Like what you had to do and such. But you had not disclosed any of that info. At the most, I think you attack ships in High Res or Haz sites and mining was never in the picture.

Oh please note. I did start playing Elite at the start of Pre Alpha I am also a Founder and Kickstarter who help promote this game. By checking your posts. You started around on the last Christmas sale.

 

[Red Zephyr]

See when I noticed you did NOT say even the Haz or High Res sites have Mining has no skill. Tell me you either never mined ore in those locations or you mined outside those sites. Or it would have been mentioned already.

That's not really how an argument works. You don't assume things from what I didn't say. If you wanted, you could have asked, and I would have told you.

See this still seem fabricated after claiming mining is easy and has no skilled and It still doesn't have much info on mining. Because if you really did mining in Haz, High zones you would had more detail info. Like what you had to do and such. But you had not disclosed any of that info. At the most, I think you attack ships in High Res or Haz sites and mining was never in the picture.

Mining is easy. If you're a decent pilot in an engineered ship built for combat mining, it's easy in a HazRES too. But let's not get away from the real topic of my thread that you still haven't addressed:

The issue is not that combat has become too difficult. The issue is that it is simply taking longer to kill combat NPCs, and a simple ammo increase would help alleviate this problem in lieu of a total rebalancing.