Incrementally Improving PowerPlay - Make PowerPlay Open-Only

[Robert Maynard]

Then why not use the mode? Solo and PG do exist for just that purpose currently.

As does Open - due to the existence of the block feature.

And, I have forensically told you how Powerplay is structured. It has a thin PvE shell for CZs and hauling....and nothing else. This second half is where something should happen to moderate how well you do...but NPCs are ineffectual and Open is optional leading to the mess we have- a half game.

It's like the BGS or competing CGs in that respect - players in any mode participate and need to be outdone by others for the latter to "win".

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

The main problem is that this argument goes back and forth but no-one has really got the opinion of people who play powerplay. From what I've seen, the vast majority of powerplay players seem to be in favour of some form of Open Only restriction. There needs to be a way to canvas the opinion of all powerplay players to see if their happy with any move to open only. I still prefer the idea of a hybrid model but there are other things which would need to be done.

The real issue is, no matter how many times we bring this up, or try to highlight these issues to frontier, they've fallen on deaf ears. Say what you will about Sandro, at least when he was about Powerplay appeared to be some kind of priority. Now it seems that fdev don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole, even Dav when talking about Fleet Carriers, said they didn't put in the Power Contact into the Fleet Carrier modules because it's too complex.

I know the point of these threads is to highlight that people still want powerplay to work but its disheartening when there is nothing year after year. Mind you, knowing my luck, they'll be an announcement about Powerplay soon, just to make me look foolish.

 

[Rubbernuke]

As does Open - due to the existence of the block feature.

Which breaks the reason to use Open in the first place with Powerplay- whats the point of going into open to make it PG or Solo? I thought the whole point of Open was to experience its danger, and in Powerplay that danger comes from other commanders.

It's like the BGS or competing CGs in that respect - players in any mode participate and need to be outdone by others for the latter to "win".

Powerplay does not start or end in one system- its bubble wide. The BGS works because NPC danger comes from missions which are local in scope. CGs are singular systems. Powerplay territories are at minimum 40 times larger than both.

Powerplay requires travel across large distances to fortify, prep, fight or UM- and yet nothing happens in these spaces to stop you (and affect the outcome). This is the problem.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The main problem is that this argument goes back and forth but no-one has really got the opinion of people who play powerplay. From what I've seen, the vast majority of powerplay players seem to be in favour of some form of Open Only restriction. There needs to be a way to canvas the opinion of all powerplay players to see if their happy with any move to open only. I still prefer the idea of a hybrid model but there are other things which would need to be done.

The real issue is, no matter how many times we bring this up, or try to highlight these issues to frontier, they've fallen on deaf ears. Say what you will about Sandro, at least when he was about Powerplay appeared to be some kind of priority. Now it seems that fdev don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole, even Dav when talking about Fleet Carriers, said they didn't put in the Power Contact into the Fleet Carrier modules because it's too complex.

I know the point of these threads is to highlight that people still want powerplay to work but its disheartening when there is nothing year after year. Mind you, knowing my luck, they'll be an announcement about Powerplay soon, just to make me look foolish.

Its getting to a point where even die hards will get fed up and go, eroding any high level play left. I'm waiting for EDO to see whats going on but I'm not waiting any longer than that.

If FD have problems with Powerplay, why not, you know, talk to the community like Sandro used to? There are loads of people who can help them.

 

[Robert Maynard]

But you have to engage with it- either NPCs do it or players do- but it has to happen otherwise there is no game to it. With no opposition of any kind its basic collect and go, over and over and over- which is not gameplay when the first run is exactly the same as the twentieth.

Participants have to engage in whatever is included in the PvE aspects of the feature, certainly.

The 'competition' is pure one way grind racing with no tactics involved at all.

If that is what some consider it to be then it's a consequence of it not requiring PvP.

If they don't do it, or just add in 5C protections then FD will seal PPs fate. Either they make the NPCs incredibly dangerous, let players be those NPCs or remake it totally- but keeping it as it is will just allow it to degenerate with no high level play at all- which will be perfect for you, since dogma seems to trump reason.

As I indicated earlier, I doubt that Frontier would ever consider increasing the challenge posed by NPCs to a level acceptable to some players. We'll see, in time, which of the Flash Topic proposals are considered suitable for implementation.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Participants have to engage in whatever is included in the PvE aspects of the feature, certainly.

Which- is not much. The closest analogy is going to a supermarket and collecting shopping- you get in your car and thats it.

If that is what some consider it to be then it's a consequence of it not requiring PvP.

Which is why its regarded so poorly. Its poor gaming and thats reflected in its dwindling player numbers. Its only the groups keeping it alive and once they go, any hope for higher gaming goes with it.

As I indicated earlier, I doubt that Frontier would ever consider increasing the challenge posed by NPCs to a level acceptable to some players. We'll see, in time, which of the Flash Topic proposals are considered suitable for implementation.

If they don't, then I seriously worry about FD designers and what they consider a challenge frankly. For Powerplay to work across modes as it is now, NPCs have to be scary- G5 or Thargoid level scary to even approach the possibility of a run failing. Right now there is close to zero chance of being destroyed. Even the assassins they send are from 2015- hardly a deterrent.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Which breaks the reason to use Open in the first place with Powerplay- whats the point of going into open to make it PG or Solo? I thought the whole point of Open was to experience its danger, and in Powerplay that danger comes from other commanders.

A selective block list removes particular player yet, unlike Solo and Private Group, permits the player to play in a game mode with an unlimited population. Some players are seeking a co-operative experience, even within a competitive feature.

Powerplay does not start or end in one system- its bubble wide. The BGS works because NPC danger comes from missions which are local in scope. CGs are singular systems. Powerplay territories are at minimum 40 times larger than both.

Powerplay requires travel across large distances to fortify, prep, fight or UM- and yet nothing happens in these spaces to stop you (and affect the outcome). This is the problem.

I wasn't referring to the geography.

.... and, yes, I do support improvements to Powerplay NPCs (up to a point, it's still a game that has to be able to be won at least some of the time).

 

[Rubbernuke]

A selective block list removes particular player yet, unlike Solo and Private Group, permits the player to play in a game mode with an unlimited population. Some players are seeking a co-operative experience, even within a competitive feature.

Which is nonsense when Open is you interfacing with the opposition in a competitive feature.

I wasn't referring to the geography.

.... and, yes, I do support improvements to Powerplay NPCs (up to a point, it's still a game that has to be able to be won at least some of the time).

But its still relevant in showing the differences. CGs are the BGS are local, Powerplay is bubble sized. There are huge spaces of nothing where the feature has to have the chance to attack and kill you.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Which is nonsense when Open is you interfacing with the opposition in a competitive feature.

.... in a game where game modes are simply settings on the matchmaking system and where no player requires to instance with another player while engaging in any game feature (except CQC) if they choose not to.

But its still relevant in showing the differences. CGs are the BGS are local, Powerplay is bubble sized. There are huge spaces of nothing where the feature has to have the chance to attack and kill you.

Sourcing commodities for CGs may not be local at all - and the required commodities may only be able to be sourced quite some distance away.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The main problem is that this argument goes back and forth but no-one has really got the opinion of people who play powerplay. From what I've seen, the vast majority of powerplay players seem to be in favour of some form of Open Only restriction. There needs to be a way to canvas the opinion of all powerplay players to see if their happy with any move to open only. I still prefer the idea of a hybrid model but there are other things which would need to be done.

The real issue is, no matter how many times we bring this up, or try to highlight these issues to frontier, they've fallen on deaf ears. Say what you will about Sandro, at least when he was about Powerplay appeared to be some kind of priority. Now it seems that fdev don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole, even Dav when talking about Fleet Carriers, said they didn't put in the Power Contact into the Fleet Carrier modules because it's too complex.

I know the point of these threads is to highlight that people still want powerplay to work but its disheartening when there is nothing year after year. Mind you, knowing my luck, they'll be an announcement about Powerplay soon, just to make me look foolish.

Say what you want about people opposing open only, but it keeps the thread bumped

 

[Northpin]

Powerplay requires travel across large distances to fortify, prep, fight or UM- and yet nothing happens in these spaces to stop you (and affect the outcome). This is the problem.

Because it's not about being stopped from doing things, but about being encouraged to do things
And the ones that can do more are the one that win

The opportunistic play comes indeed to the stopping part, but it's entirely optional because it depends on way too many factors, most of them by design (modes, platforms, instancing, timezones, whatever)

But its still relevant in showing the differences. CGs are the BGS are local

Yea, Repairing stations in the WHN nebula, ferrying goods from 800ly away... Was that Local?

 

[Robert Maynard]

The main problem is that this argument goes back and forth but no-one has really got the opinion of people who play powerplay. From what I've seen, the vast majority of powerplay players seem to be in favour of some form of Open Only restriction.

Which seems to suggest that the opinions of an apparently small subset of the player-base should in some way affect the outcome of a decision whether or not to PvP-gate access to content that all players bought access to as part of the game.

While not all players engage in the feature, it remains part of the feature set that they have access to, as all bought the same game, regardless of play-style preference - and may participate in at any time of their own choosing.

PvP-gating the feature would seem to be one way to guarantee to reduce the potential number of players that might participate in the feature, given that Frontier would seem to be "well aware" that the majority of players don't get involved in PvP (even though we have been advised that the majority of players play in Open (with no mention of how many play Open exclusively)).

 

[Rubbernuke]

Because it's not about being stopped from doing things, but about being encouraged to do things
And the ones that can do more are the one that win

Which is not what this design of Powerplay is about. You gather then deliver- except nothing stops you so its just gathering as much as you can.

The opportunistic play comes indeed to the stopping part, but it's entirely optional because it depends on way too many factors, most of them by design (modes, platforms, instancing, timezones, whatever)

Which is overblown and for a lot of them can be overcome via design. Go have a read of what happens in real life on this forum or Discord- its enough to make opportunistic PvP a reality, and even if its sporadic it would be 1000% more effective than the NPCs are right now.

Yea, Repairing stations in the WHN nebula, ferrying goods from 800ly away... Was that Local?

And how many times does that happen these days? Powerplay its been what, five years continually? Do Thargoids do anything to stop you?

 

[Rubbernuke]

.... in a game where game modes are simply settings on the matchmaking system and where no player requires to instance with another player while engaging in any game feature (except CQC) if they choose not to.

Which is at odds conceptually with Powerplay.

Sourcing commodities for CGs may not be local at all - and the required commodities may only be able to be sourced quite some distance away.
[/QUOTE

Which is still local- you have a singular destination to deliver to. Its not like you have to deliver that commodity to 40 other places to defend your faction.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Which is at odds conceptually with Powerplay.

Depends on what the concept was, given that it was retconned by Sandro some time after implementation. As implemented it's a PvE feature with optional consensual PvP.

Which is still local- you have a singular destination to deliver to. Its not like you have to deliver that commodity to 40 other places to defend your faction.

Singular in the case of a CG, potentially multiple in the case of the BGS (albeit in a relatively small volume).

 

[Rubbernuke]

Depends on what the concept was, given that it was retconned by Sandro some time after implementation. As implemented it's a PvE feature with optional consensual PvP.

Retconned or not, thats the last we have heard about it- and as a PvE feature it lacks actual PvE a great deal of the time- where are the NPCs to stop you?

Singular in the case of a CG, potentially multiple in the case of the BGS (albeit in a relatively small volume).

But still local in scope. The average PMF / faction is the size of one PP bubble.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Retconned or not, thats the last we have heard about it- and as a PvE feature it lacks actual PvE a great deal of the time- where are the NPCs to stop you?

The revised pitch did form part of the justification for even considering Open only as a possible change as part of the investigation, yes.

I personally have no issues improving the PvE challenge posed by Powerplay and hope that Frontier do so.

But still local in scope. The average PMF / faction is the size of one PP bubble.

In what way is distance of particular relevance to the topic?

 

[Rubbernuke]

In what way is distance of particular relevance to the topic?

Distance = interdiction risk, risk of detection, time to deliver. Its where NPCs are supposed to do something but don't.

You see, I would not mind something like this, which turns NPCs on their heads:

'Inverted' NPC Driven Powerplay where teamplay means survival

A random thought I wanted to externalise before I forget it. Problem: in Powerplay you have two 'phases' of play- merit earning in PvE zones and merit dropping (hauling, sniping etc). In the latter you do not have effective opposition, or opposition that reacts to your efforts. This idea might...

forums.frontier.co.uk

and is actually possible with the NPCs we have now.

 

[Northpin]

Distance = interdiction risk, risk of detection, time to deliver. Its where NPCs are supposed to do something but don't.

Didn't back then the NPC were a serious threat for returning explorers?
so serious that Iridium was offering escort services for the said players against NPCs?
Guess it was too much and it got dropped.

Now, strictly from my point of view, i would not mind a increase of NPC aggressiveness in relation with PP pledged players.
But it really has to be sort of balanced - being interdicted 6 times while flying 400ls is not funny and does nothing to improve my game play as a PP merits hauler.

It may disrupt a botter.
Or not.
I guess the bot can be programmed to throttle to 0 when interdicted, then align to target, boost, boost, wake. A Cutter with size6 Prismatics (or even A-rated) will be unstoppable.

In which case the botter will be slowed down a bit, while a human player might get so frustrated with the repeated, mindless interdictions that he may refuse to do it anymore.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Didn't back then the NPC were a serious threat for returning explorers?
so serious that Iridium was offering escort services for the said players against NPCs?
Guess it was too much and it got dropped.

Now, strictly from my point of view, i would not mind a increase of NPC aggressiveness in relation with PP pledged players.
But it really has to be sort of balanced - being interdicted 6 times while flying 400ls is not funny and does nothing to improve my game play as a PP merits hauler.

It may disrupt a botter.
Or not.
I guess the bot can be programmed to throttle to 0 when interdicted, then align to target, boost, boost, wake. A Cutter with size6 Prismatics (or even A-rated) will be unstoppable.

In which case the botter will be slowed down a bit, while a human player might get so frustrated with the repeated, mindless interdictions that he may refuse to do it anymore.

This is what I mean about the limitations of NPCs in comparison to disrupting people- the only place where the two intersect is supercruise at the minute. No hauler drops to a nav, and NPCs can't attack when you take off or land (because station drop zones are too small, defence areas too big).

NPCs have to be a danger otherwise there is no obstacle to overcome to make it a game really. The options in this case are change station drop zones (which affects all the game) or make stations turn a blind eye to NPCs loitering maybe. That way NPCs can lurk about, and if they are G5 with the correct weapons be much more surprising and dangerous.