Ingame advertising

This may of been covered somewhere already but couldnt find a thread after a (admitedly) quick search. Would it been to Frontier's benefit(and indirectly ours) to look at approaching real world companies if they would like to advertise on those little billboards outside and inside the space stations? If done maybe the new channel would create enough income for paint jobs and the like to become free!. I also (for some reason) find it strangley satifying that COke made it to 3302? (CMDR O'Leary drinks Coke "IT gives me the edge I need!").
Perhaps a option to turn it off for those who dont like real world advertising.
 
Seriously I disagree.

I'm part of the bunch o'people who despise advertising in itself, both for its usually miserable aesthetics and how small-minded, shallow and uninspired its message is.

In recent years, we've been seeing a marked increase on the representation of corporate themes and aesthetics (which was historically predictable, as art more often than not fantasizes about, fixates upon and represents the reigning powers of the current era), And I'm becoming increasingly annoyed and somewhat disgusted that designers across the world would just blindly follow the aesthetic trend of letting a blurb of heteroclitus, colored rectangles grow out of every surface in sight like mushrooms on a moldy piece of wood... They either clash with and detract from the beauty of the surrounding architecture, or else serve to hide the uglyness of otherwise uninspired buildings like candy.

Turns out, None of the structures we have in game are uninspired rectangles of depressing grey concrete... Note, while you dock, how, when the ads are present, you fixate on the pwetty flickering lights and bright colors of otherwise simple and uninteresting images, while near stations without ads, you find yourself detailing all the intricacies of the station's structure? Note also how the latter somehow feels more satisfying... Because althought advertising is meant to capture your attention, it dosen't in itself attempt - or even need, really - to add beauty to its environment, it just really tries as hard as possible to catch your eye.

The ads we have in game right now were probably not made by people in "advertisement design", but by environment artists. In the very least, they were crafted by people who actually cared to propose a visually coherent universe, which means they don't break the immersion and somewhat blend - as far as advertisement can blend - into the surroundings.

If there's one ploughing thing FD can do if they ever want to obli-ploughing-terate both immersion and artistic coherence, it's to allow other companies to slap ads from their own advertisement department into the game... Because no matter what corp that would be, they'd not care a dime about immersion - they'd do their best, in every case, to not just make you forget the rest of your visual experience, but also to remind you they exist in the real world, and pull you out of the narrative.

Even without trying, ads about coke, adidas, Star Citizen (lol) and the like would be fundamentally immersion breaking. You can't make constant, omnipresent real-world references in a game that attempts to create the illusion of a totally different reality.

So no, FD please by all means, do not ever do this.

Actually, why don't you allow commanders to pay a fee to change all advertisement into actual holographic sculptures or paintings from the ED universe - or at least turn it all of altogether?
 
There's a reason I use an add blocker. There's a reason I don't give hulu the time of day. There's a reason I hate Left For Dead 2's multiplayer; Adds. No faster way to get me to stop playing the game than to litter the in-game environment with that crap. Put adds in-game and you couldn't pay me to play it.
 
RL Advertisements placed in context within the game-world are an interesting idea which as arisen outside this game.

Personally I would not have a problem with it if they were made sympathetic with the game environment - so you don't just let CokeCola drop an aribtary gif into the scene, but one tailored to the Elite setting.

However there are two problems....

(1) Advertisers probably want to control the space they are renting, as they pay big bucks to ad companies to design these things.

(2) Internet advertising is measured by eyeballs or click-throughs which would be hard to measure if the advert is simply part of the virtual scenary.

So to type of client willing to go with this advertising model may be limited... but it may be good for SMB vendors who just want to get their name seen.
 
I have mixed feelings about this. Advertising is a necessity that will go on to the future, unless we, as humans, change quite a bit.
The world of Elite is much like ours. It's a simple future projection of our way of life. And so, the advertising is there, made by the Devs.
I think that putting in-game adverts would benefit greatly the game, or could ruin it completely.
The only way of properly going ahead with the idea is to allow the Devs to tailor each advert, so that they blend with the Elite world.
Putting a simple modern coca or pepsi advert, would be stupid. Putting Aisling Duval drinking it, it's another completely different story.

Cheers
 
Let's see, what kind of adverts each power could have:

Felicia Winters - um... maybe a brand new collection of SM lingerie? (Just joking! The woman looks like a dominatrix!) She's a pro, an executive. Business adverts are her thing. Maybe real estate?
Archon Delaine - Holy Sh.. He's perfect for the new Philips beard trimmer!
Yuri Grom - Now this one looks manly macho. Look at that beard. Looks at those eyebrows. He could advertise the Rooster's Men Grooming center... or Smirnoff vodka.
Pranav Antal - This guy is all about skin care products for men.
Denton Patreus - Clothes. Tailors. Ties and jackets. He's a smart one.
Li Yong Rui - Techs, gear. Give him an Iphone. (just to tease him! Lol!)
Aisling Duval - Make up products. Hair products. All beauty products! She's a barbie.
Zemina torval - When a woman gets to old age, she needs anti-wrinkles, liftings, botox... but detox drinks would work also.
Arissa Duval - Queen of swords? Perfumes! Gowns and ceremony dresses!
Zach Hudson - Hell, this one I don't know. He's a beast. Anything he advertises gets out of stock.
Edmund Mahon - Male enhancement? :)D) He's kind of a twisted two-face politician. Give him to pizza hut, let him speak about cheesy bites.

Have fun, mates.
 
It would be something for the Fuel Rats, just to stop them blatantly advertising here, every 5 minutes.

Maybe some adds for the new ships, paint jobs and other in-game products.

As to real world advertising in game. No, no, no, we come here to escape the dross, big corporations try to pump into our brains, every day, in every way they can think of.
 
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I have mixed feelings about this. Advertising is a necessity that will go on to the future, unless we, as humans, change quite a bit.
The world of Elite is much like ours. It's a simple future projection of our way of life. And so, the advertising is there, made by the Devs.
I think that putting in-game adverts would benefit greatly the game, or could ruin it completely.
The only way of properly going ahead with the idea is to allow the Devs to tailor each advert, so that they blend with the Elite world.
Putting a simple modern coca or pepsi advert, would be stupid. Putting Aisling Duval drinking it, it's another completely different story.

Cheers

My two cents :

Advertisement is a necessity that will go on to the future for content we don't pay for in other ways. It always has been.

When a game bleeds you for 50 bucks an expansion and locks most visual customization behind additional transactions, it better not slap adverts all over itself on top of everything else.

Going for the "exploiting every possible revenue source" tends to alienate customers as it decreases quality.

If FD won't have at least that respect for the cash I gave them as I purchased this game (which was 2X 50$ - a hundred bucks for one single game!), I'm not buying anything else from Elite.
 
Advertisement is a necessity that will go on to the future for content we don't pay for in other ways. It always has been.

When a game bleeds you for 50 bucks an expansion and locks most visual customization behind additional transactions, it better not slap adverts all over itself on top of everything else.

Going for the "exploiting every possible revenue source" tends to alienate customers as it decreases quality.

If FD won't have at least that respect for the cash I gave them as I purchased this game (which was 2X 50$ - a hundred bucks for one single game!), I'm not buying anything else from Elite.

Alch, don't be so negative. Adverts can be a wonder of design, and they can fit in-game in such a way that you won't even notice. And when you do, you'll even find it funny. It's like easter eggs.
New Mission: deliver X tons of pizza from pizza-hut(tm)(insert station) to Sothis (insert station). But watch out, pizza voracious pirates will hunt you down!
 
Alch, don't be so negative. Adverts can be a wonder of design, and they can fit in-game in such a way that you won't even notice. And when you do, you'll even find it funny. It's like easter eggs.
New Mission: deliver X tons of pizza from pizza-hut(tm)(insert station) to Sothis (insert station). But watch out, pizza voracious pirates will hunt you down!

It's a matter of personal preference, of course, but I'll be so bold as to say you're utterly wrong. The anecdote you propose is exactly what I'd despise to see. It's corny, somewhat shoehorned, and points directly to the real world in a way that brings the player outside of the narrative, without offering anything but a reference to the outside world.

Easter eggs, Intertextuality - or to be more precise in this matter, intermediality - is not something that, whenever used, immediately justifies itself. Either you build upon it and create a second degree that lets both your creation's and the reference's meanings bloom together to form something deeper, or you're just throwing material together because you can. The latter is neither elegant nor interesting.

Good examples of this method can be seen in how The Witcher 3's Hearts of Stone fully intertwines Goethe's Faust into its story, or how Blood and Wine integrates the heart of Cervantes' Don Quixote. Those are good examples of "easter eggs" and references, because the narration keeps building upon them, reflecting upon them and ends up much richer, both artisticall and philosophically, fot it.

Art, in its very essence, leads the beholder to wonder and reflect upon the representation's subject, to question its existence and seek understanding of it, whereas advertisement aims more often than not to completely divert the beholder's attention from the subject's reality, both in relation to the world and in its particularities. For an example, luxury car ads aren't about selling a car ; they're about selling the dream of wealth, the desire for speed, the lust for all the pretty models standing beside the car, the want for social standing. The object being sold is always showered with additional meaning that makes it seem much more than it is, and in a form that does everything it can to detract from any dialectic relationship with it.

For an example, you'll see most ads completely disregard the use of state verbs and conjunctions. Ads don't go and say "CoffeePlace, we have the best coffee in the world!", but rather "Coffee Place : The best coffee in the world!" (This principle changes from one language to another ; in french, they almost always do it). What's interesting with the second option is that, since it dosen't grammatically articulate a relationship between the two concepts, the mind is less likely to question that relationship, say by formulating its antithesis, and more likely to just accept the proposition as it is. Advertisement designers pretend they do it because it makes stuff more punchy, but its effects are more subversive that this. They simply attempt to short-circuit critical thought. How else would they be able to sell products more expensive and with a shorter life span if they hadn't created an aura of prestige and desire around them?

Ultimately, indeed, marketing is about producing an uninformed, impulsive response in order to be able to sell the worst service at the best price by selling the concepts you relate to the object rather than the object itself.

Ironically, a foundational article of capitalistic theory implies the population needs to be a group of rational, informed humans attempting to increase their capital. Modern marketing, as funny as it sounds, seeks to tear down this basic systemic necessity. It is profitable in the short term, but extremely detrimental in the long term, to produce an uninformed, impulsive population, as it frees sellers from the need to develop products that are actually superior. Corps, sadly, never consider the long term and do, in this and many other venues, undermine the very economic system they are based on, for an extra buck of course.


But I violently digress...

I have honestly never seen advertisements that were "wonders of design" for the stated reasons above. Marketing design, when it is highly successful, will always strive to absorb the entirety of your attention, and in this particular case, will do all it can to remind you it exists in the real world, because advertisers would not at all want you to mistake their company for an in-game company, right?

If there's a real ad in game and I just don't notice it, then it wasen't worth the client company's money! Do you think a corporation would pay FD only to be forced to show advertisement that people don't notice? There's not a chance of that happening.

What will happend, in my opinion, if FD allows this, is we'll get the same trash we see on TV and on roadside panels, just with a different flavor.


... My, that was a mouthful...
 
"Coke, all our slaves are happy to work for us"

Ahh.... my favourite film of all time 'Blade Runner' springs to mind, with all the advertising snuck into the film ('Product Placement' I believe is the professional term):
Then again there is the 'Curse of Blade Runner' as it's known...where all the companies who had their advertising placed in the film promptly went bust or ceased exist (with the sole exception of Coke .... but even that was a close run thing with their post Blade Runner mega-fail introduction of 'New Coke')
.
But it would be nice when we get atmosphere planetary landings to have Blade Runner'esque blimps drifting past with blaring adverts on their flanks promoting 'Start a new life in the Off World Colonies!'... set on a dystopian dark and seedy world.. THAT really would be something!
 
If there's a real ad in game and I just don't notice it, then it wasen't worth the client company's money! Do you think a corporation would pay FD only to be forced to show advertisement that people don't notice? There's not a chance of that happening.

Alch, this was the reason why I said I had mixed feelings about this issue. I do agree that close to none companies will let the Devs integrate their product seamlessly in the game. They want it to stand out, and that will ruin it all.

Now, about your art view, you must open your mind. Yes, art has been defined my men through history as something much different from advertising, but that's all an ugly lie. The same lie as those that look at a painting tend to see and understand much more than the artist wanted to express.
I can give you an example: many of the paintings made through medieval to renaissance eras always had local prominent characters depicted in them, many times as godlike figures, as entities. It was a way the artists found to soothe the rich and acquire more customers, or to open the acceptance of a painting inside royal court. This was a method that preceded the "perfume" or "automobile" adverts.
Modern adverts are a product of art and psychology, and many designers and artists work at advertising companies.

Ahh.... my favourite film of all time 'Blade Runner' springs to mind, with all the advertising snuck into the film ('Product Placement' I believe is the professional term):
Then again there is the 'Curse of Blade Runner' as it's known...where all the companies who had their advertising placed in the film promptly went bust or ceased exist (with the sole exception of Coke .... but even that was a close run thing with their post Blade Runner mega-fail introduction of 'New Coke')
I love Blade Runner. The film is in itself a fine piece of art.
:')
 
Hey if it gets me some free Paint jobs Ill fly past a billboard for coke at 120km/s! But I agree that id like it to fit the world(galaxy).


"To think, all the death, all the pointless destruction in the war with the Thargoids; when all we had to do was spray them with Cherry Coke!"
 
Alch, this was the reason why I said I had mixed feelings about this issue. I do agree that close to none companies will let the Devs integrate their product seamlessly in the game. They want it to stand out, and that will ruin it all.

Now, about your art view, you must open your mind. Yes, art has been defined my men through history as something much different from advertising, but that's all an ugly lie. The same lie as those that look at a painting tend to see and understand much more than the artist wanted to express.
I can give you an example: many of the paintings made through medieval to renaissance eras always had local prominent characters depicted in them, many times as godlike figures, as entities. It was a way the artists found to soothe the rich and acquire more customers, or to open the acceptance of a painting inside royal court. This was a method that preceded the "perfume" or "automobile" adverts.
Modern adverts are a product of art and psychology, and many designers and artists work at advertising companies.

As I have the pleasure of sitting on what in the english world would pass for an "arts and critique" major, which allows me to gleefully starve to death - althought I don't want to be making an argument of authority - I'll tell you I'm well aware of the political servitude art has been subjected to throughout history. That argument in itself, however, dosen't hold for long when used to uphold your particular position.

Turns out, calling advertisement "just another form of art" (not quoting you in particular but rather a certain Zeitgheist amongst advertisement designers who'd like to be seen as worthy contributors to the world's beauty) and treating it as such means to overlook many a controversial aspect of advertisement.

Let's first set the table by saying that, indeed as you mention, all art is political. Even artists who pretend that art "should" be absolutely autotelic, that it should serve no other purpose than being "art" and bringing beauty to the world, are stating that art shouldn't have to answer to anything, that it should be controlled by nothing, that it should be autarcic and that - incidentally - all artists should be freed from all political and all material constraints, are making a powerfully clear political statement. Let's not mention more "engaged" approaches to art. There's no way around it, everything expressed by an individual represents a way of thinking, a social position, and one form or another of agenda. The fact (as I said in my first post) that artists very often represent power, both as a means of subsistance and out of attraction (Power matters historically and influences everyone, and therefore is a more interesting subject than uneventful things), does not suffice to establish equality between advertising and any other art form, even when artists represent - forcefully so - power under an unequivocally uncritical and laudative tone.

What difference, then, do we see emerging between "art" and advertisement? It's that, indeed, while some works of art propose a non-critical view of politics and seek to cotrol through emotivity and impulsiveness, some other works of art strive to promote critical thinking. Borges, for an example, or Nabokov, are writing in a way that undermines the very notion of percieved literature, they challenge the literary media itself, play with it, make it question its existence, force readers to reconsider their own involvement in the narrative, either by betraying narrative pacts or by putting them in charge of notions that should be cared for by the author. This breaks many illusions, but turns the reflexion about the media itself - critical and philosophical thinking - into an inherent part of art. Even the Mimesis of earlier art forms would contain within itself, in its best forms, a critique or reflexion upon itself.

Also, a compromise between both possibilities was very often seen within the boundaries of art. Shakespeare is a prominent example of this : Althought all his plays were tailored for a noble audience and exalted many of its virtues, it would also carry deep existential reflexions, question the structure of nobility itself and show its shortcomings under the guise of tragic scenarization. Many people actually see his plays as a means for a very elevated mind to uplift the intellectual and political condition of a rather dull nobility (but that's a story for another time...).

If advertisement were to do the same thing, to provoke reflexion upon itself, to lead an audience to question its meaning, its relevance, how it works, to show its logical or narrative shortcomings and represent its limits as it strives against them, that advertisement would neuter everything that makes it "worth it" for a company, and ultimately would never be considered for broadcasting. To me - and that the essence of out debate, I think, the very definition of marketing (and advertisement in general) excludes true artistic endeavors, just like working in the gravel industry would prevent an artist to earn their life by practicing chisel-and-hammer stone carving and proposing their sculptures to their clients. Same goes with scientific writing vs literature - You can't indulge in aesthetic research while writing a science paper, you just go for the clearest, shortest text possible, and metaphors, puns and other rhymes aren't welcome.

No one creates advertisement outside of the boundaries of commerce - that is, no advertisement advertizes itself - meaning that it is never created out of "inspiration". It is solely and uniquely created with the purpose of selling an object at all costs, and never with the purpose of getting the audience to doubt the object's "supremacy", or even for the purpose of being witnesses as is, as its own subject. And so, while art MAY be its own justification - many literary works, or sculptures, or paintings were created for the sheer enjoyment of the artist and of the witness AND published and earned their author much popularity - adverts cannot attain success while being autotelic. To the "Ad market", ads have no intrinsinct value outside of their rentability and how much they increased a product's sales. More importantly, philosophically speaking, the notion of an autotelic ad is somewhat of an oxymoron. That makes advertizing purely practical.

Ad spaces are often rented or highjacked by people who undermine advertisement - from graffiti to those who'll just pay to slap a black screen onto an ad panel telling people to "Just Relax", no strings or logo attached, but that kind of behavior predates the emergence of marketing by centuries, and certainly isin't a "subdivision" of advertizing. It's "street art" or "installation art" or "environment art" or whatever else, critics be damned, but it's not advertisement. It in itself is defined by a refusal to seriously ponder its subject, much in the same way that, if you take a break to ponder the nature of a log, you're no longer doing some woodchopping. The reason I refuse to acquaint published and broadcasted (or publishable and broadcastable) advertizing with art is that Art will very often tear itself apart, whereas ads will never, ever do that willfully.

I'm not saying the designers and artists working in advertisement could not produce art, I'm not even saying it's impossible for them to create an "artful" ad... but I'm saying that the circumstances in which advertisement is published are circumstances in which, 100% of the time, artistic thinking will be cast aside because it would make the advert less potent and less profitable. The political, intellectual and formal freedom needed to create an artful ad would be destructive to the sales of the product it sells. Imagine post-modern aesthetics applied to ads... They just wouldn't work!

That a very good work of art like a movie could include product placement and still be a good movie does not mean advertisement adds to its richness and value. The best you can conclude from such an experience is that, in some occurrences, it does not detract from them in the eyes of most people. But you're still far, very far away from proving that art itself would benefit from integrating those things without taking them on a second-degree approach, be it through satire or humor, which again, would not be acceptable for the artist's "clients".


TL:DR : Advertizing is to art what being hit with a shovel is to gardening : You're close, but you're wrong. Correct tools, wrong use. And I'd rather not be hit with a shovel while docking my gawddam Beluga, thank you very much!




help! We've got to stop this!! I can't stop talking!

Hell I love that subject thought...
 
But it would be nice when we get atmosphere planetary landings to have Blade Runner'esque blimps drifting past with blaring adverts on their flanks promoting 'Start a new life in the Off World Colonies!'... set on a dystopian dark and seedy world.. THAT really would be something!
In game adverts of in game things is great and adds to the immersion.

But for real life adds, I'll quote Grace Jones:
It's OK on TV 'cause you can turn it off
 
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In game adverts of in game things is great and adds to the immersion.

But for real life adds, I'll quote Grace Jones:
This is set in technically "our" future. I'm sure some modern companies may survive the future. I like the idea of ads specifically tailored for the Elite universe, rather than modern ads pasted in the hologram billboard things. But I'd also prefer an expansion of the in universe companies, with different module types sold by different companies. Like the D classes would be made by an exploration focused company.

No one creates advertisement outside of the boundaries of commerce - that is, no advertisement advertizes itself - meaning that it is never created out of "inspiration". It is solely and uniquely created with the purpose of selling an object at all costs, and never with the purpose of getting the audience to doubt the object's "supremacy", or even for the purpose of being witnesses as is, as its own subject.

Couldn't the same be said for religious art? Does that ever have the purpose of getting the audience to doubt supremacy of said religion? Does religious art have any purpose outside of promoting the religion?

Commissioned works have historically been basically advertisement. Take the Sisteen Chapel ceiling. It was essentially a paid to advertise the political power of the pope at the time. It had to be approved by the people paying Michaelangelo to do it. How is that different than a graphic artist hired to make the toyota or coke brands look good? That is another purprose of advertisement, brand awareness. Rulers had their portraits done to look grand and put these portraits up throughout the country as a symbol of their greatness. How is that not a billboard? Does it have any other purpose than to "sell" the monarch to the people? Anything else we get out of these works of art are projected outside of their intended purpose. The same can happen to corporate advertisements.

That a very good work of art like a movie could include product placement and still be a good movie does not mean advertisement adds to its richness and value. The best you can conclude from such an experience is that, in some occurrences, it does not detract from them in the eyes of most people.
I disagree, actually. If you're creating a universe based anything on real life, you have to keep in mind that products and advertising exist. One option is to completely use made up companies. In a modern setting, that could be jarring if nothing is recognizable, unless your purpose was already to separate the story from the "real world" like using made up cities and such. But if your purpose was to say this is happening now in real life, not having real products, locations (including billboards if they exist in real life) would undermine that realism, so including it does add richness and value, at least compared to the alternative.

So with Elite, (as I said above) if it's supposed to be our future, there is a possibility some companies survived, so including Elite-future versions of these companies' ads would add to realness. And they'd be of the brand awareness type ads in a 3300s style. (McDonald's! Over over 27 quadrillion served.)

I totally understand you don't believe advertisement should exist at all, but humans have been doing it for thousands of years, so it's more likely there'd be advertisements in the 3300s.


(Also Shakespeare didn't write for a noble audience specifically, he wrote for a general audience. Some critics thought he was a low brow hack.)
 
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I'm against the idea of having real-world ads invade my game play space.

But ... I'd LOVE for Frontier to host a contest for players to create advertisements for the game to increase the variation of the ads. I've love to see an advert for "Lavian Brandy" when I arrive at Lave.
 
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