Sure, except when you try to use that intercepted data and don't have the licence key to go with it, the printer creates a bunch of microscopic flaws that cause your ship to blow up mid hyperspace.
DRM security is a biaytch in 3302.
Instant Transfer: Practical Effects
- Thread starter DocLooshkin
- Start date
Sure, except when you try to use that intercepted data and don't have the licence key to go with it, the printer creates a bunch of microscopic flaws that cause your ship to blow up mid hyperspace.
DRM security is a biaytch in 3302.
• what are the likely actual, gameplay consequences of instant ship transfer?
For every ship and module transfer I'll have to break the 4th wall and consult a distance/time chart I'll have made. I will then do things in game until that time is passed, when I can use the ship/module.
• how will this affect your own, personal gameplay?
Ship - Very little in how I play the game. I'll still play Self-Ironman. I'll still play Solo/Möbius. I'll still use all the other self imposed rules I have. The background in which I play will have changed however.
Modules - A much greater impact, though I've not thought through all the implications, I expect to start creating a personal store of modules that I can use at will (after the time delay). The end result of this is unclear to me at the moment.
• how frequently does this seem likely to have an impact on your game, if any?
Ship transfer will have a low frequency.
Module transfer will have a high frequency.
For every ship and module transfer I'll have to break the 4th wall and consult a distance/time chart I'll have made. I will then do things in game until that time is passed, when I can use the ship/module.
• how will this affect your own, personal gameplay?
Ship - Very little in how I play the game. I'll still play Self-Ironman. I'll still play Solo/Möbius. I'll still use all the other self imposed rules I have. The background in which I play will have changed however.
Modules - A much greater impact, though I've not thought through all the implications, I expect to start creating a personal store of modules that I can use at will (after the time delay). The end result of this is unclear to me at the moment.
• how frequently does this seem likely to have an impact on your game, if any?
Ship transfer will have a low frequency.
Module transfer will have a high frequency.
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Will increase the gap between the rich and the poor
But how? Like you don't have to be rich to own a high jump rang Asp.
Goose4291
Banned
I think that's a bit extreme.
What it will do is separate the gap between the top tiers of a trade CG and the lower tiers further, meaning if your gameplay is about getting into the top 10%, you'll need to use the aforementioned type 9 into the CG for delivery and rocket sled asp back to the resource gathering point, reducing risk of loss further (as you wont be flying your freighter back, and even if you do lose your taxi, the rebuy will be negligible) and also speeding up your journey (as you won't be flying your Nostromo like hulk back to the start
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But the cost of the transfer will be high. And the difference between those who can make 100 transfers per day and others who make 10
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So you are against the cost rather than it being instant then?
For me I keep saying I don't like putting it behind a credit paywall, if it's in it should be free, the feature makes little sense from a lore perspective so why add an in-game cost.
If the feature is indeed there to enable people to participate then why on Earth add a credit barrier.
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Goose4291
Banned
If it's behind a 'paywall' then a few of the exploits mentioned (such as the above Commodity CG ine) can be effectively negated.
The only way you can stop people from doing such things is to make it cost ineffective.
Practical effects: loss of flavouring, and vanillification of the galaxy.
Ships having different ranges (not just FSD, fuel ranges too) becomes utterly meaningless, Engineer mods for FSDs, probably the most popular engineer feature, becomes mostly useless, also "immersion". But I'm not going to dwell of these as they have been explained to death, and everyone undestands these except those who keep pretending not to.
My biggest gripe is that the galaxies Geographic Diversity is completely annihilated.
Currently the core of the bubble has the best availability of shipyards and outfitting, due to the greater density of richer industrial and high tech systems. The outskirts (or frontier) have poor, barely populated systems, mostly extraction systems, with terrible shipyards and outfitting. The frontier provides good opportunities for profit, mining or especially missions, but you have to go in prepared as ship and modules resources are scarce. Locations matter. If have to take it into account and plan accordingly.
Except now you don't... Just buy all your ships and a nice and vast selection of modules in your favorite high-tech LYR system all at a nice discount, then leave them stored and teleport them instantly when you need them.
And suddenly every single station in the entire bubble is exactly the same, as everything you might ever need is available at a push of a button. All the bubble flavour and diversity and sense of geographic location is gone. But hey, that poor old sod who has only 10 minutes to play can now join some combat zone that spawned in 17 Draconis or Maia woth his favorite Vulture!
Ships having different ranges (not just FSD, fuel ranges too) becomes utterly meaningless, Engineer mods for FSDs, probably the most popular engineer feature, becomes mostly useless, also "immersion". But I'm not going to dwell of these as they have been explained to death, and everyone undestands these except those who keep pretending not to.
My biggest gripe is that the galaxies Geographic Diversity is completely annihilated.
Currently the core of the bubble has the best availability of shipyards and outfitting, due to the greater density of richer industrial and high tech systems. The outskirts (or frontier) have poor, barely populated systems, mostly extraction systems, with terrible shipyards and outfitting. The frontier provides good opportunities for profit, mining or especially missions, but you have to go in prepared as ship and modules resources are scarce. Locations matter. If have to take it into account and plan accordingly.
Except now you don't... Just buy all your ships and a nice and vast selection of modules in your favorite high-tech LYR system all at a nice discount, then leave them stored and teleport them instantly when you need them.
And suddenly every single station in the entire bubble is exactly the same, as everything you might ever need is available at a push of a button. All the bubble flavour and diversity and sense of geographic location is gone. But hey, that poor old sod who has only 10 minutes to play can now join some combat zone that spawned in 17 Draconis or Maia woth his favorite Vulture!
My personal opinion is that it'll mitigate the disadvantage of ships with short jump ranges. Before, you had to make a trade-off between combat effectiveness and jump range, but not anymore.
So basically, everyone will have two ships: one kitted out for maximum jump range, and a combat ship with the lightest FSD they can equip, because why not? Just get your 30ly range asp to do the leg work, get to your target system, then magically spawn your fer de lance or whatever.
So basically, everyone will have two ships: one kitted out for maximum jump range, and a combat ship with the lightest FSD they can equip, because why not? Just get your 30ly range asp to do the leg work, get to your target system, then magically spawn your fer de lance or whatever.
Well if you need to stop people doing it I suppose so.
But I'm not really seeing the cg line thing as much of an exploit though, I mean the return trip is just a bit quicker.
But what advantage does a small FSD give a combat ship?
I mean a top end FSD takes hardly any power, a 5A on a gunship takes the same power as a cargo hatch...
Also FSD is disabled on hardpoint deployment anyway, it's as good as irrelevant isn't it?
Cost for a lot of players is irrelevant, credits are not hard to come by so ironically putting it behind a significant paywall affects newer/more casual players more than the established players who are more likely to use this as an exploit.
I'm a little disheartened at the number of threads that have popped up that are along the lines of "Everyone is whining about immersion but there's no real impact of instant ship transfers", but there are. For instance:
• PowerPlay fortification/prep runs will be sped up by 30% which affects the entire balance of PowerPlay (powers will be able to fortify more systems). Cost has very little impact on the heavy haulers in PowerPlay and currently actions in PowerPlay are often time-gated to try and achieve balance - this short circuits part of that balance (I've explained in detail how elsewhere). This also affects the heavy haulers in CGs.
• Allied to the above, Undermining in hostile space becomes significantly easier because distant systems can be reached with few jumps (less chance of being seen/interdicted) but you can still have a capable combat vessel when you arrive.
• Ship balance will change markedly and multirole ships will lose their value. I currently have a battle equipped Anaconda I use most of the time as it can still haul a bit of cargo and has good jump range. That ship becomes far less valuable after this change as I can fly an Asp everywhere and call in my FdL - I won't need to fly my Anaconda to do undermining/CZs etc., I can taxi there then call in a significantly more ideal ship for fighting. As a lot of the parts of the game I play are directly competitive (PP for example) then simply being told "don't use it then" isn't really an option. I think losing a whole factor of ship balance is detrimental to the game.
• PvE becomes easier. If you've always got the "perfect" combat ship available then there's no question of "that looks like a good mission, can I manage that in this ship with the weapons it's got?" it just becomes, I'll do that, now which of my ships is ideal for that mission. With PvP there'll be less build compromise and if players are able to fit an absolutely minimal FSD and use engineering modules to improve boot time rather than range then it's significantly easier to HW out mid-fight if things get a bit too sticky.
• If more people are zipping around in Asps with 50ly jump ranges there's less chance of chance encounters so interactions are concentrated in the "event" systems. I think that's a shame as I've often bumped into people in random systems (and not in a hostile way - I rarely PvP to be honest)
• I think there's a real underestimation of how much this will affect how big the galaxy feels - especially as most people play within the bubble.
Now that doesn't mean I don't think we should have ship transfers, I think we should, I just think that they should have a time delay for a few reasons:
• It removes at least three or four of the issues above, the PowerPlay/CG short-tripping becomes irrelevant even with a short distance based delay (5 minutes for 100ly transfer would stop that approach being any quicker).
• There is still a benefit to multi-role ships as you can react quicker and it still means players have to make a choice (do I get there now or do I wait for my combat ship).
• A time delay affects all players equally. A cost, even a high cost and a scaled cost on ship value, really won't affect the billionaires in the game.
• It removes the uncomfortable issues people have with lore/immersion.
• It allows a potentially more "living" feel to the game in the future - they may not have time to add this now but with delayed ship transport then we could have the option of seeing huge bulk carriers arrive at stations and drop off your ship - there may also be gameplay elements around those bulk carriers. For instance how about a pirate group approaches you, they've nicked the shipyards transponder beacon and a bulk carrier is going to drop away from the station, where you could possibly "liberate" the brand new top of the line FdL it's carrying...". Or how about you're hired as a fighter escort for a bulk carrier.
I wish people would actually do some math to support their claims.
"It changes the galactic scale" -> there's only ~18,000 shipyards in a galaxy of 5 billion systems. ~0.0025% of the galaxy are affected at all.
"It will invalidate CG competitiveness" -> exploration and combat CGs aren't affected at all. Trade CGs slightly, if there is no source of commodities nearer than 100ly. Even then.. you're going to fly your stripped down Anaconda to that system to call your ... other stripped down anaconda for the return trip? Ah, to call your cutter to that other system.. bingo.. cheat ..except a fully laden anaconda beats a fully laden cutter in jump range so hard, you're basically trading 1/3 of your travel time savings for 1/3 more cargo space. End result? Same hourly contribution. (And if it's a shorter trip, you don't save anything by not going there in the cutter in the first place).
So .. do the math.
Impact on anything relevant -> pretty much non-existent.
First difference is weigth: 4A to 5A is 10 tons already. Less weight means better spead and turnability. This is not to neglect in combat. This does not change with turning on or off in moduls.
Second diefference is engineer mods: instead of jump range now best mods will be D class and "Fast FSD Boot Sequence" or B class and "Shielded FSD" to increase chances of High-Wake success!
I know that people already fit theire combat ships this way. But again this needs time and consideration. You have to look for a High-Tech station go there, equip the light-wight FSD and then go to your oringinal location. With Ship-Transfer you dont need all of those steps. It's easy, it's fun. But if it is tied to money it's another step to make the game unbalanced and harder for those pilots who can not afford instant-transfer for theire ships.
Instant Ship Transfer gives a possiblity to call a otherwise not very mobile battleship instantly to your location. This alone is not really a thing anyone can want - be it for CGs or Powerplay or Piracy ?!
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This is something I don't really understand the outrage about.
We VERY RARELY had to trade off permanently (at least for a long time) between combat capability and jump range. We simply travel fit the ship for max range and combat fit it back again when we arrive at the destination. It very rarely happens that we couldn't in any way find a way to combat fit the ship again so the compromise for range stuck into actual combat.
I understand everyone who opposes the idea of instant ship transfer on the count that 'it just doesn't feel right in ED'.
If we all just admitted we are being conservative about it instead of trying to come up with reasons how it will affect gameplay negatively, I would have a much easier time shunning the mechanic and going up against the devs. I would all go 'we have values in this game and they should be kept at all costs' like conservative politicians trying to hold onto outdated values just because.
Instead what we have is made up reasons depending on exaggerations, straw men or slippery slope arguments with a misconception slapped at the end like 'No one will use another ship than AspX for travelling and this will kill the gaem'.
This is because, in reality, there's no chance in hell this change will affect gameplay in a negative way, diminishing options as people claim. The only thing it'll do is enable people to fly the ships they actually want to fly instead of accept they just can't and move on to do something else.
That's not true, firstly you would very rarely find every module you wanted at your destination system, so there has always been a trade off. Secondly, I've given quite detailed reasons why this affects gameplay. There seems to be a concerted effort to categorise anyone who doesn't want *instant* ship transfers as whining and any justification they do give is brushed aside and the only one that is concentrated on is "immersion, feel or lore", because that's easier for them to dismiss.
I'd put a hefty wager to charity on the fact that instant ship transfer would dramatically increase the use of Asp Explorers. Would you do the same that it wouldn't?
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The practical effects of instant ship transfer will be that FSD range does not matter any more, meaning that the balance between ships will become upset again. FD again does suff not well thought out. We have now been balacing ships carefully in 18 months, out the window.
So now you need an ASP , a Python , A FAS and 'Conda/Cutter/ Vette and the bubble is yours.
There is no downside to having a limited jump range vs massive weapons. I dont know if FD plays this game themselves, I think not.
Cheer Cmdr's
So now you need an ASP , a Python , A FAS and 'Conda/Cutter/ Vette and the bubble is yours.
There is no downside to having a limited jump range vs massive weapons. I dont know if FD plays this game themselves, I think not.Cheer Cmdr's
I agree with this of course, as it's a no brainer. However I don't agree with the part that this is something that will kill the game before we see it in action.
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The practical effects of instant ship transfer will be that FSD range does not matter any more, meaning that the balance between ships will become upset again. FD again does suff not well thought out. We have now been balacing ships carefully in 18 months, out the window.
So now you need an ASP , a Python , A FAS and 'Conda/Cutter/ Vette and the bubble is yours.
Cheer Cmdr's
Is it really a common occurrence to have small weapons and a long jump range on dedicated combat ships? This is something I've very rarely seen, that's why I'm confused.
This is premature. We don't know the constraints if any that will be applied to instant ship transfer; range and cost constraints come to mind.Hello, everyone.
There are innumerable threads and posts on the topic of instant ship transfer. With a few exceptions, such as Ziljian, who had a sensible objection, they're mostly full of people complaining, often without giving any particularly coherent reason as to why.
This thread frames much simpler questions:
• what are the likely actual, gameplay consequences of instant ship transfer?
• how will this affect your own, personal gameplay?
• how frequently does this seem likely to have an impact on your game, if any?
Please note that this is not a thread for approval or disapproval: there are other threads for that.
This is not a thread about realism or immersion: again, the other threads deal with such issues.
What practical impact is this actually going to have for most of us?
Let's say that one constraint is that the ship being transferred must have a top level A rated FSD. Then what? This has an implicit cost constraint and having to make strategic planning necessary so to take advantage of instant transfer. How will this affect Open, Group and Solo modes and the background simulation that underpins all 3?
Until FD comes out with the beta all we can do is speculate on hidden assumptions - details are the hiding place of the practical Devil.