Intel investigating issue with 13th and 14th gen 'K' processors

From what I've read and seen on YouTube, these processors are running too hot, to the point they are experiencing silicon breakdown after only 2 to 3 months of use.
 
I don't have any faith in an article that starts the second paragraph with the same sentence the first paragraph ended with. They were in too much of a hurry to read through it before posting, or they're just incompetent.
 
From what I've read and seen on YouTube, these processors are running too hot, to the point they are experiencing silicon breakdown after only 2 to 3 months of use.

Temperature, in and of itself, isn't likely to be the issue as these parts have the same thermal protections as others.

I'm not sure what the failure rates of the higher-end 13th and 14th gen parts are, but it would not surprise me if a fair number of parts that are not actually stable at stock specifications are making it to retail. Competition in the CPU space is pretty fierce right now; the Golden Cove architecture and the Intel 7 manufacturing process have both been pushed to their limits. Intel has been in similar positions before and has occasionally pushed out parts that were not adequately tested (the original Pentium FDIV bug and the Pentium III 1.13GHz recall come to mind).

I also would not be surprised if the bulk of issues are due to board partners using overly aggressive (and technically out of spec) default parameters in their firmware so their boards get favorable reviews. CPU makers generally ignore all but the most flagrant violations here as it makes their CPUs look good in performance tests. CPUs that only have marginal headroom may not react well to aggressive board defaults or XMP settings.

I don't have any faith in an article that starts the second paragraph with the same sentence the first paragraph ended with. They were in too much of a hurry to read through it before posting, or they're just incompetent.

You don't need to have any faith in the article to acknowledge the sources.

From the proverbial horses' mouths (NVIDIA and Intel staff posts):


 
You don't need to have any faith in the article to acknowledge the sources.
I was referring to the quality of the article that was linked. It made the issue seem like just another half-baked story on the internet. It did succeed in sending me off on a search for better information though. That's about all I got out of the article.

Thanks for the link. I haven't seen that one yet. I just verified the story was true, and decided to look into it later.

It doesn't affect me, but I'm still curious.
 
Looks like the MB manufacturers are starting to release BIOS updates to mitigate the issue, but it seems that it will also reduce performance slightly. I haven't experienced any issues so I'll probably give it a miss for now!

 
Performance impact of the new baseline profile is upward of 10% in some scenarios, which isn't surprising. Some of these boards are running the processor far beyond spec at default settings.
 
Problem appears to be significantly more widespread than I originally expected.

The First Descendant developer recently patched their game to to make shader generation less intensive because it was crashing on an unusually large number of Raptor Lake parts.

Alderon Games is experience very high rates of problems with their own Raptor Lake servers and receiving large numbers of crash reports from client 13900K and 14900K systems.

Level1Techs has also received reports from multiple vendors and hosting providers using these CPUs in conservative settings who are seeing extreme failure rates (north of 25%):
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzHcrbT5D_Y


It's starting to look like Intel pushed the top-clocked Raptor Lake SKUs too hard and didn't adequately validate them for reliability or failed to do sufficient accelerated life testing on them. I wouldn't be surprised if there is recall coming.

In the meantime, anyone looking at a 13900K(S/F) or 14900K(S/F) who isn't willing to extensively test and bin their own samples, may want to consider something else.
 
Yep, YT Level1Techs, Gamers Nexus, etc all reporting on this. If you search the web for the errors being reported on 13th and 14th gen, it has been out in the wild for awhile now. Hopefully Intel stands behind their products and takes care of their customers for anyone affected
 

Based on information regarding the nature of the most common errors (predominantly things that would hammer the memory subsystem); what mitigations occasionally seem to be working (lower memory clocks, disabling E-cores); the differences between Alder Lake and Raptor Lake; Raptor Lake's short development cycle (less than a year, which is extremely fast); and that Intel has apparently canceled a future high-E-core count Arrow Lake refresh during development lead me to believe one of the main contributing factors, if not the main issue, is with the ring bus.

The various P-cores, E-core clusters (and their associated L3 cache slices), system agent (which includes the memory controllers), and IGP are all connected by a (dual?) ring bus. Each one of these units needs a ring stop and each ring stop adds a bit of latency. Alder Lake topped out at twelve ring stops and ran the ring around 3.6GHz at stock, with E-cores enabled. Raptor Lake added two ring stops, faster memory support, and simultaneously tried to improve L3 and memory latency, which means a much higher stock ring clock. If the ring and it's associated power planes weren't redesigned to compensate it's not far fetched to think it could be failing earlier than anticipated.

So that's my hypothesis...dramatically more demand placed on the ring bus, combined with higher overall current draw, and higher average temperatures, with cores also pushed to the edge of stability, is resulting in a large fraction of parts being doomed to fail. Abbreviated development time to rush out a stop-gap architecture probably caused Intel to make unwise assumptions about reliability, rather than testing actual samples long enough to get a good feel for in situ failure rates.

Hopefully Intel stands behind their products and takes care of their customers for anyone affected

Last time Intel screwed up and had a major release that had unmitigable defects was with the Pentium III 1.13GHz Coppermine about 24 years ago. Some reviewers noticed problems with their samples in the weeks leading up to launch, which others were eventually able to reproduce. Turned out that a very large portion of 1.13GHz Pentium IIIs weren't stable at 1.13GHz. Third parties had to approach Intel and demonstrate the issue, which caused Intel to halt shipments, try to fix issues via microcode and new guidance to motherboard makers (sound familiar?), only to eventually recall the entire line.


It's already been a longer process with Raptor Lake, with less meaningful action. I do admit that transient errors and reliability issues are much harder to demonstrate than a clear-cut inability to complete a specific task, but there appears to be months of compelling evidence of issues. A huge number of probably defective samples are out there and Intel is still shipping and selling them.

Mindshare is a fickle thing. Consumers that know they've been screwed over can go from being slavering fanbois to holding equally irrational negative biases long after the fact. Unless Intel is confident there is no intrinsic problem with these parts that would significantly elevate failure rates (a conclusion that would, quite frankly, sound ludicrous at this point), Intel should immediately stop sales, recall all unsold inventory, and start offering replacements with known-good samples, or full refunds, to any owner of any potentially affected parts, no questions asked.
 
Buildzoid also seems to think the ring bus is the likely culprit and points out that the ring shares a unified voltage rail with the cores, so will run at the highest VID requested by any core at any given moment:
Source: https://youtu.be/eUzbNNhECp4?t=1195


Skatterbencher provides some more detail on how the voltages are applied:
 
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/1e9mf04/intel_core_13th14th_gen_desktop_processors/


Based on extensive analysis of Intel Core 13th/14th Gen desktop processors returned to us due to instability issues, we have determined that elevated operating voltage is causing instability issues in some 13th/14th Gen desktop processors. Our analysis of returned processors confirms that the elevated operating voltage is stemming from a microcode algorithm resulting in incorrect voltage requests to the processor.

Intel is delivering a microcode patch which addresses the root cause of exposure to elevated voltages. We are continuing validation to ensure that scenarios of instability reported to Intel regarding its Core 13th/14th Gen desktop processors are addressed.
Intel is currently targeting mid-August for patch release to partners following full validation.

Intel is committed to making this right with our customers, and we continue asking any customers currently experiencing instability issues on their Intel Core 13th/14th Gen desktop processors reach out to Intel Customer Support for further assistance.


July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th and 14th Gen Desktop Processors - Intel Community

This video by RobeyTech is also helpful and gives some tips on how to check your system to see if you are affected:

Source: https://youtu.be/wkrOYfmXhIc


So that you don't have to hun down the answer -> Questions about manufacturing or Via Oxidation as reported by Tech outlets:

Short answer:
We can confirm there was a via Oxidation manufacturing issue (addressed back in 2023) but it is not related to the instability issue.

Long answer: We can confirm that the via Oxidation manufacturing issue affected some early Intel Core 13th Gen desktop processors. However, the issue was root caused and addressed with manufacturing improvements and screens in 2023. We have also looked at it from the instability reports on Intel Core 13th Gen desktop processors and the analysis to-date has determined that only a small number of instability reports can be connected to the manufacturing issue.

For the Instability issue, we are delivering a microcode patch which addresses exposure to elevated voltages which is a key element of the Instability issue. We are currently validating the microcode patch to ensure the instability issues for 13th/14th Gen are addressed.

Basically, the sum of all this is that they screwed up the eTVB, the CPU VID calculations, and were too lax with allowing board makers to apply insane power parameters. There was also a manufacturing defect they resolved last year, but some of those CPUs were evidently sold; they aren't a major contributor to the problems being reported, however.

The eTVB bug was recently corrected in microcode and the motherboard shenanigans should be mostly sorted out if one uses newest firmware that adheres to Intel's new guidance. the VID issue won't be patched until August.

There are probably a fair number of parts that were damaged by excessive voltage, a fair number that aren't stable without that excessive voltage, and a smaller number that were afflicted with a manufacturing defect. If you run into issues after updating firmware, get warranty service sooner rather than later, as I have a feeling their returns department will be swamped for a while. See if they'll cross ship.

Of course, there may still be further evolution of these issues and fixes.
 
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Hi All :)
There are probably a fair number of parts that were damaged by excessive voltage, a fair number that aren't stable without that excessive voltage, and a smaller number that were afflicted with a manufacturing defect. If you run into issues after updating firmware, get warranty service sooner rather than later, as I have a feeling their returns department will be swamped for a while. See if they'll cross ship.

Of course, there may still be further evolution of these issues and fixes.

There must be millions of people though that are not aware of this, if you take into consideration end users of bought over the counter pc systems. I'd imagine that a fair few hobbyist Computer builders (Gaming or otherwise) are aware of this current problem as they tend to keep an eye on current and up and coming hardware information, though again, some may not.
I mean for example...If somebody bought a comp. system from say...🤔...Curry's (UK pc outlet) or some other large pc system distributor recently, would there be a re-call of their systems fitted with these CPU's, or if a future 'Fix' would be offered (especially if the system was still under some kind of warranty). I can see some skulduggery happening over this, and a good portion of end users loosing out. :unsure:

My last Intel build was based around an i5 12600 S cpu, so I'm glad that (I decided) my most recent build was based on a Ryzen 7 7000 series cpu. *(mentioned in this topic https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...dangerous-odyssey-hardware-discussion.620979/ ).
On that note...I've decided to build another Ryzen based computer system over the next 5 months (I'll get the parts over that period as and when I can afford them).

A Question please 😀... (to anybody really btw.)...I've just noticed that the Ryzen 9 7900X3D cpu is about the same price at the moment as the Ryzen 7 7800X3D ?, I'm just wondering which one to use in my next build. I've very briefly compared the two in online benchmark information sites this morning but I'd like to know what the thoughts of some people who are here think please! :D

Edited...*(I'd misquoted the wrong topic thread)...:rolleyes:

Jack :)
 
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It's my understanding that the 7800X3D is generally faster in gaming than the 7900X3D, sometimes significantly so. The 7900X3D has 12 cores, but only 6 of them benefit from the extra cache.

I'm not sure what difference the CPUs will make to Elite - the game benefits from higher clock speeds in CPU-limited scenarios, but also benefits from the extra cache. The 7900X3D boosts to 5.6GHz whereas the 7800X3D only hits 5.0GHz. However, the 5.6GHz boost is on the cores that don't have the extra cache.
 
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