Interdiction Dodgers

[NeilF]

Hello Commander tagos!

I just want to confirm something. You say that it's impossible to escape interdiction - could you clarify. Interdiction is more or less skill-based, with both pilots having a very similar chance. There are differences between ships, but they tend to counter each other out in different ways. If something is occurring that's messing this up, it's likely a bug that can be looked at.

And to carry on with this theme: if you could escape an interdiction you would have, at a minimum, forty seconds of grace period whilst your aggressor is waiting in normal space for their FSD to cool down (not to mention that they will have suffered some damage that you would have avoided). Would that not be enough of an advantage?

From my experience, in the same ship, sometimes NPC interdiction is easy to evade, other times it is practically impossible (ie: simply cannot keep up with the evasion reticle).

 

[kallen]

I can live with interdiction and npc and player pirating and will always drop any cargo if I'm out matched and out gunned; that's just the risk you take in running any trade route. I draw the line at being interdicted to simply be killed by another player; no chat or cargo request simply destroying me before I have even finished spinning from interdiction. Same player three times last night; imperial clipper and I was dead twice before my ship even finished the interdiction spin to normal space. Their needs to be some form of penalty or bounty for murder or your simply inviting certain players to grief others.

 

[Tigga]

Hello Commander tagos!

I just want to confirm something. You say that it's impossible to escape interdiction - could you clarify. Interdiction is more or less skill-based, with both pilots having a very similar chance. There are differences between ships, but they tend to counter each other out in different ways. If something is occurring that's messing this up, it's likely a bug that can be looked at.

And to carry on with this theme: if you could escape an interdiction you would have, at a minimum, forty seconds of grace period whilst your aggressor is waiting in normal space for their FSD to cool down (not to mention that they will have suffered some damage that you would have avoided). Would that not be enough of an advantage?

It may be skill based (it's off ship type and interdictor quality, right?), but people who interdict other people have a LOT more practise. It's extremely rare for me to fail to interdict somebody, but that's probably because they've fought interdictions against other players <10 times, whereas I've done it probably over 1000 times.

I think winning the interdiction minigame is enough of an advantage. If you decide to continue your trip and get interdicted by the same chap a little later, well, more fool you. Maybe you should have been watching your scanner for him to reappear and hopping sectors if you couldn't make it to the station in time.

 

[[VR]tailgunner30uk]

It has already been stated, but that is part of the experience. You are bound to meet a few of those personalities during your in-game time. Not everyone will be having the whole "Would you like to come over for tea" routine when you meet.

Regarding the combat logging, the only thing that needs to be done, and perhaps the only one to be deemed "Fair" by all(as it is already in-game, just not working properly), is to repair the Anti-logging timer so that any disconnections, regardless of the method - be it killing the process or clicking on the respective button, is sanctioned the same way - by providing ship persistence in space throughout the duration of the timer from the moment of clicking the button/connection interruption(extremely easy to detect server-side). Boosting the timer to, say, 45 seconds should be enough too.

The problem is that, since the interdiction module is not a weapon, it is not considered an attack. Therefore, a person who is interdicted or not is not subject to the combat log mechanism, as they are not in danger. Unless the module is re-designated as a weapon, this would not change. If it is designated as a weapon then you will face fines for it's use. So your choice, weapon, and combat log injunction, or not a weapon and no combat log injunction.

 

[Darian]

I think traders should play where they want to play. Trading should be more dangerous, and some of that danger should come from NPCs you can't hide from by moving to solo. Sadly, NPCs are laughable at the moment, but I have little doubt they'll be pushed up a few IQ points soon.

The problem is not npc, they do not kill for the LULZ, make them as hard as you want.
Player vs player, the trader has all the risk, and if destroyed has an long grind ahead, plus the risk again all the time.

Nope, wont catch me in an merchant ship in open, the biggest an ASP, it can defent itself, has some cargo space and the insurance is doable, but flying an pure merchant ? Forgetaboutit.

 

[VRGrgkLiberator]

Hello Commander tagos!

Sure, what we're aiming for is risky, but the concept of submitting just to escape straight away is simply not what we intended. I personally think that a part of the puzzle that's still missing to some degree is the super cruise game play aspect, which, after all, is the determining factor of whether interdiction can occur in the first place.

I note in some other posts you have suggested flying an arc away from the direct route between locations in the system. And while that gets you away from some interdictions on longer SC legs, that's not where the majority occur (as at the higher speeds there's no way to close distance to effect an interdiction).
Almost all interdictions occur while slowing at 50%-75% throttle when the destination is 6 or 7 seconds distant.
I'm not aiming for eliminating interdictions, but it's annoying when you have a USS you are trying to drop into, and you get interdicted by the fuzz, and you lose the USS for another 5 minutes or more...

So what other SC game play are we missing?

 

[StayFrosty]

There's an interesting sentiment that keeps cropping up: if you make it harder to escape from aggressors, then I'll be forced back into solo. I'd like to ask, is this a player-only issue, or would it include NPCs. Because the idea we've always had for trading is that being attacked is the core game play risk.

In fact, I'd posit that one of the reasons (not the only one, obviously) trading is so much more profitable is because there's little risk of losing your ship or taking much damage, or losing cargo (feel free to disabuse me of this notion if you have evidence to the contrary!)

Now I certainly don't want to see traders getting slaughtered like lambs in an eternal spring, but I want to make it clear that being attacked/placed in significant danger has always been part of our plans for the trader role.

Cue the endless arguments about open VS solo, PvE VS PvP and trading VS piracy. What I'm gathering is that many people on the forums just don't like losing against players, but they're okay with losing against NPCs. So yes, it's a player-only issue for a large part.

Which is kind of a problem, seeing as the game is a sandbox where players and NPCs are pretty much identical, they fly the same ships, and perform the same actions, making PvE and PvP pretty much indistinguishable aside from the fact players usually provide a greater challenge than NPCs. And trading is surely easy right now, seeing as NPCs provide little challenge compared with players whether it comes to interdiction or combat, which is why some traders sport the biggest ships and then complain they're losing millions to player pirates, when said player pirates would be happy if they could even afford an Asp.

It seems to me that the only way to properly solve the issue would be to bump the difficulty slider and bring NPCs more on par with players: players wouldn't be as much perceived as a threat compared with NPCs, and trading would be made more challenging, without affecting player/player interaction.

 

[Ytheleus]

My view on trading risk is that it should not be severe in well policed systems, that presumably being most of the point of well policed systems. So instead of 'go into solo' being the advice for risk averse players, it should be 'try to trade/mine in democracies, try to avoid anarchies'. This was essentially how the balance was struck in Elite 84. It implies that there would be some extra profitability in anarchy systems, not just greater tolerance of illegality. You should consider yourself fortunate to reach a station in an (inhabited) anarchy system without a pimped ship and decent flying ability.

My memory of anarchy systems in E'84 is multiple waves of attackers, and trepidation when considering a run through them. This would work well in my opinion, and provide a more colourful and varied galaxy.

 

[Vincent Starson]

I just want to confirm something. You say that it's impossible to escape interdiction - could you clarify? Interdiction is more or less skill-based, with both pilots having a very similar chance. There are differences between ships, but they tend to counter each other out in different ways. If something is occurring that's messing this up, it's likely a bug that can be looked at.

I submit to interdiction because it doesn't feel skill based. I can't turn faster than the escape vector, so how is it skill? It's just luck that it goes the way I can't catch up to.

Basically, full pitch to the escape vector and it keeps pace so it stays the same distance away. Is this intended?

And to carry on with this theme: if you could escape an interdiction you would have, at a minimum, forty seconds of grace period whilst your aggressor is waiting in normal space for their FSD to cool down (not to mention that they will have suffered some damage that you would have avoided). Would that not be enough of an advantage?

That's enough advantage against single pirate, sure. What about when you release wings and now there are packs of griefers coming for you?

 

[Chukk]

The draw to Solo, or stopping trading, is versus players only yes. There is absolutely zero risk for me to go around in a combat ship, I could lose that 1000 times and be largely unaffected. I lose my trading ship once, Im set back two, maybe three days of playtime.

I dont get pirated, so I most assuredly have a skewed fringe view of this issue, Ive never once been spoken too, save once, 'I am executing you for crimes against humanity'. Just interdicted, and destroyed mostly. If the FSD cooldown is longer than the time to kill, I will never again escape, not even once. As it currently stands, I can escape, sometimes, with the two proposed changes, that will make it impossible for at least this one player.

Trading is the riskiest thing for me to do, I lose the most money in trading, due to players, and the least when I go looking for combat, and also trading takes me the longest time in real hours to recover my losses. It isn't riskless, please do not believe that at all. Is it easy? Yes I can agree with that, however for me at least, it is assuredly the most dangerous thing I can do, because I can easily escape in my cobra or viper, and I can easily be destroyed in my trading ship.

I spent probably 50 hours (probably not a lot compared to many other people, but that's not the point) in this game running trade routes. Not once have I been interdicted by a player. Not once have I lost my cargo to a player.

Why is that? Because it's very very very easy to find profitable trade routes far from any other player. If you're smart, you can remove basically all risk of griefing by simply removing yourself from the populated systems in this game. I have never run a trade ship with shields (until I got my Type-9....didn't want to damage it docking and undocking), I never run with hardpoints, chaff, defense points, etc. There just simply is no need to.

I never understand why people complain about griefers. There's some 500+lys of space to run cargo in, and people who complain about griefers are always within the same highly populated systems.

 

[Darian]

It seems to me that the only way to properly solve the issue would be to bump the difficulty slider and bring NPCs more on par with players: players wouldn't be as much perceived as a threat compared with NPCs, and trading would be made more challenging, without affecting player/player interaction.

<facedesk>
How often?
The PvP players who are in it for killing for the LULZ are the problem.
There is no real consequenzes.
I can grind you an char from nothing to viper or cobra in no time, and they are eperfect able to pop freighters, if i run two accounts (and you would be amazed how much some psychokids spend on that) in an week flat. Then i can pop freighters left and right with impunity.

Right now there is little reason for traders to risk npc and the psychotic pvp crowd combined, risk is fun, guranteed destruction pointless.

 

[Tigga]

The problem is not npc, they do not kill for the LULZ, make them as hard as you want.
Player vs player, the trader has all the risk, and if destroyed has an long grind ahead, plus the risk again all the time.

Nope, wont catch me in an merchant ship in open, the biggest an ASP, it can defent itself, has some cargo space and the insurance is doable, but flying an pure merchant ? Forgetaboutit.

I dunno, I've been told that there's a psycho NPC type that does, indeed, kill for lolz.

Also, the trader gets all the reward as well. Pirating is not a high reward activity. Trading is.

 

[Darian]

Some players like the interaction with other players, I am not sure why one wants to at all in an game like ED but they do exist

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The Trader has more to work too though, you have to grind to get the ship and the mulah to load it, then you have to risk it every time you trade.
So pop an merchants ship 4 or four times and you have someone in an sidewinder.

 

[Frans Cantor]

It has happened to me two times that I interdicted someone and then they log off. It's not an empty interdiction bug, I saw them first and then they just disappeared. Other one even asked if I'm there tho rob him, I said yes, he replied "not a chance bro" and disappeared. Geez... Go to solo if you can't handle open.

I actually saw the other guy who logged off in the same system 15 minutes later. I interdicted him and gave him a lesson.

 

[Faded Glory]

I think you're right. High bounties get exploited in every PvP game. What is needed are serious consequences that lead to more good game-play. A 'real' pirate, (as opposed to the Lulz types) would relish playing the hunted criminal, denied a safe haven in a ship that's slowly falling apart because anarchy ports lack high class modules. While all the time 'sightings' of them are posted on Galnet.

And allow them to pay a massive, massive bribe to clear their name.

Now that's the kind of pirate you can run up a gallows and salute. The Drive-By Sunday Psychopaths, not so much.

Make piracy a real career that requires real dedication.

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No, please. Make the NPC's more challenging. We'll cope. It's players who are unpredictable and in enough cases to spoil things, pointlessly psychopathic killers.

I agree with this, and well done Snakebite for starting this thread and bringing up the lack of consequences for pirates able to destroy a CMDR and then just go and pay off their bounty. This seems to be something that lies behind a number of different threads, culminating in the solo versus open thread that's been going on for ever.

I don't believe player/traders who choose to play in open don't want to be pirated. If they didn't want this, they would play solo. What they probably don't want is to simply have their ship and progress destroyed for no reason. Unfortunately, the current system where bounty and wanted status can simply be paid off has enabled players masquerading as pirates to hijack that role play scenario to simply destroy CMDRs with little or no consequences, forcing many to avoid open play, even though they actually are looking for meaningful player interaction.

Surely a persistent bounty and wanted status for killing a clean CMDR that can only be cleared by wiping your save and starting over would resolve this issue?

Regarding NPC's, it would certainly be nice if pirating ones were a little more prevalent, especially in less secure systems. Make it so that CMDRs can still try to avoid interdiction, and if you want to make it harder for them, just cause more hull damage as a result of a long avoiding interdiction struggle. That would be a financial hit without forcing players into combat if that is not their thing. Also, I had an experience with an NPC pirate who breached my cargo hatch, making me lose cargo. Don't know if it was intentional / programmed, but it added a lot of depth to that particular interaction. You can try to make them more challenging in a combat scenario, but based on reactions in the forums to other (sort of) related issues, (I'm thinking the friendly fire threads), you may end up with howls of protest if players regularly lose progress to NPC's, so it will be a difficult balance to get right.

Finally, regarding Sandro's thoughts (if I have understood them correctly) about making penalties greater for higher ranked CMDR's or players in bigger, stronger ships, I respectfully argue that this is not a good idea. Murder is murder, whether you are in an Eagle or a Python, whether you are Harmless or Elite. If you kill a clean CMDR for no reason other than because you want to kill, you should be wanted, permanently, hunted down by bounty hunters, live and NPC, also by system authorities, fired upon by stations should you be foolish enough to approach one and get scanned, and be made to live the outlaw life that you have chosen. That would be immersive role play.

Just my thoughts.

 

[NeilF]

It has happened to me two times that I interdicted someone and then they log off. It's not an empty interdiction bug, I saw them first and then they just disappeared. Other one even asked if I'm there tho rob him, I said yes, he replied "not a chance bro" and disappeared. Geez... Go to solo if you can't handle open.

I actually saw the other guy who logged off in the same system 15 minutes later. I interdicted him and gave him a lesson.

This needs to be trapped and acted upon IMHO - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=101696

The game can soon see if people are "happening to crash" (close the process) when interdicted. So warn and then penalise. Same goes during combat too I guess.

Finally, regarding Sandro's thoughts (if I have understood them correctly) about making penalties greater for higher ranked CMDR's or players in bigger, stronger ships, I respectfully argue that this is not a good idea. Murder is murder, whether you are in an Eagle or a Python, whether you are Harmless or Elite. If you kill a clean CMDR for no reason other than because you want to kill, you should be wanted, permanently, hunted down by bounty hunters, live and NPC, also by system authorities, fired upon by stations should you be foolish enough to approach one and get scanned, and be made to live the outlaw life that you have chosen. That would be immersive role play.

Just my thoughts.

Put a bounty on a "murderer" that cannot be paid off for X game hours. And these do not include game hours docked in a station

 

[Tigga]

I submit to interdiction because it doesn't feel skill based. I can't turn faster than the escape vector, so how is it skill? It's just luck that it goes the way I can't catch up to.

Basically, full pitch to the escape vector and it keeps pace so it stays the same distance away. Is this intended?

Never had this. I can usually track pitching vectors, and if I can't I assume the chap behind me as the same issue as I don't tend to lose out on them. It's the yawing ones that are tricky. Tigga's top tip for yawing ones is not to roll then pitch, but to do a big dip into a U shape. This requires a lot less work in the very sluggish yaw/roll modes of interdictions. Not sure this is your problem though.

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I actually saw the other guy who logged off in the same system 15 minutes later. I interdicted him and gave him a lesson.

This is exactly what I do. If somebody quits on me, then reappears shortly after, I give them full guns with little/no warning. I find they're often shieldless Type-6s, so they melt rather quickly. I don't kill those who comply, so they lose quite a bit by doing this.

 

[Vincent Starson]

Never had this. I can usually track pitching vectors, and if I can't I assume the chap behind me as the same issue as I don't tend to lose out on them. It's the yawing ones that are tricky. Tigga's top tip for yawing ones is not to roll then pitch, but to do a big dip into a U shape. This requires a lot less work in the very sluggish yaw/roll modes of interdictions. Not sure this is your problem though.

It's when the escape vector shoots straight up/down or at an angle and up/down. I fly a type9 so maybe it's my punishment for flying a giant brick.

 

[NeilF]

Never had this. I can usually track pitching vectors, and if I can't I assume the chap behind me as the same issue as I don't tend to lose out on them. It's the yawing ones that are tricky. Tigga's top tip for yawing ones is not to roll then pitch, but to do a big dip into a U shape. This requires a lot less work in the very sluggish yaw/roll modes of interdictions. Not sure this is your problem though.

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This is exactly what I do. If somebody quits on me, then reappears shortly after, I give them full guns with little/no warning. I find they're often shieldless Type-6s, so they melt rather quickly. I don't kill those who comply, so they lose quite a bit by doing this.

Ummm... If they've terminated the process to evade your first interdiction, why didn't they with the second?

Sure the first wasn't an ED interdiction game bug? And the second you simply fried a trader - in his eyes - for nothing?

 

[Tigga]

It's when the escape vector shoots straight up/down or at an angle and up/down. I fly a type9 so maybe it's my punishment for flying a giant brick.

Probably! I guess it may not be balanced at the upper end. I've never had problems shaking interdictions in Asps/Cobras. But I guess they're not bricks...

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Ummm... If they've terminated the process to evade your first interdiction, why didn't they with the second?

Sure the first wasn't an ED interdiction game bug? And the second you simply fried a trader - in his eyes - for nothing?

The first was them quitting because it doesn't lock them in for 15 seconds. They appear, I often complete my scan, look at their cargo, ask nicely for an amount (usually <30% with Type-6s) and then they magically disappear. Some of them even manage it twice, mysteriously much faster the second time around. Others will run for a bit, I shoot them a bit, then they say ok, and stop. Then they disappear mysteriously 15 seconds later. I've seen it all. Empty space on interdiction is maybe 1/100.

I tend to ask questions before shooting. I'm one of those lovely nice pirates nobody hears about. This does put me in a position of people quitting on me more easily though.