Powerplay Is Antal really a cult? A challenger appears!

And that challenger is Aisling Duval.

Without a deeper look into her, someone would argue "no, how could she be? she's just a cute princess, teehee", but upon closer examination, I would argue that Antal is falsely accused of such abuse. Aisling is much more fitting to the bill.

If we go by the common standards of what a cult is often made off, the image is much more clear.

1.A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power. That is a living leader, who has no meaningful accountability and becomes the single most defining element of the group and its source of power and authority.

Right off the bat Aisling meets the first criteria. Not only is she the most defining element of the group (blue hair, got to pledge!), but she requests support because she has lost the power that she deserves. This is often coupled with a troubled past or a tragedy occurring in the leader's life and used as an argument supporting the validity of the leader. Aisling is no different, since she uses the death of her own mother to drugs in order to give herself morality points upon banning them. This list only gets extended with her claim for the throne, that she "rightfully" deserved, but lost.

2.A process [of indoctrination or education is in use that can be seen as] coercive persuasion or thought reform [commonly called "brainwashing"].

She is the propaganda princess for a reason. This is achieved through promises of slave abolition towards her subjects, then happily joining the Imperial High Command and being a happy family with Zemina Torval and Denton Patreus, who her loyal subjects will be called to help if needed. Additionally, by keeping the Imperialistic societal structure in place, she really isn't abolishing everything. They might not be called slaves anymore, but due to the patronizing methods used, this is really a case of "do as I say, don't do as I do".

And now here's the last part of the package, where the real catch lies.

3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.

Sadly for her subjects, the exploitation is only economic in her case, but it's quite severe.

It's no secret that Aisling possesses the worst economy observed in the current state of PP and probably will be an all-time record. But instead of resigning from her position, her subjects are tasked with making up for it. Without their contribution, she is doomed to fall, but due to points #1 and #2, she has managed to get a firm grasp on getting them to willingly toss their credits at her in order for her to continue living her extravagant lifestyle. Even though all evidence suggests that she doesn't deserve it, her brainwashing cult tactics have resulted in providing a steady source of income from commanders willing to protect her status quo.

And thus, I proclaim and provided the evidence required that Aisling is the true cult in PP and not Antal. Antal is a dictator, for better or worse of the population serving under him, but he is not a cult leader for sure, since even though he does fulfill the criteria #2, he doesn't fulfill #1 and #3.


 
Last edited:
There a lot of people who have decide that Antal is a dictator because erm... well they arent very imaginative. For instance if you read the power control section you will actually see that their area of influence i greatest firstly in co-operatives, secondly in communist and lastly in directorships. The ethos is also one of publicity and violent protest against corrupt governments and social ills such as slavery and narcotics. The Utopians can only expand in to areas where their message is welcomed and they are wanted above the existing ideology.They are the tough faction on holding up the law, with increased bounty penalties, closing down illegal trade and increased bounty payouts. Where does the idea of a cult come from? THe Sim Guru... yup I'm guessing folk see guru and decide cult. If you read the lore Antal makes entertainment Sims and he's the best at it. SimGuru being akin to Tech Guru.Some very good at what they do and master of the knowledge etc.

If you don't know much about Antal then here's some background.


* Galaxy's Most Powerful People: Simguru Pranav Antal
https://community.elitedangerous.com/galnet/uid/5571e60e9657bae72433fa1d


This is just one take and everyone has there own ideas.


There are no slaves of any kind in Utopia. Harmful substances like narcotics are banned too. Illegal trade is closed down. The trade routes are safe as fines and bounties are increased. Antal overthrows corrupt and misguided governments through violent protest against the systems authorities. Enforcers arrest nonviolent dissidents (the smugglers, drug dealers, slavers, corrupt politicians etc of the old system) and transport them to the capital for legal due process and hopefully reintegration in to society. Utopians enforce law and order and are at peace with our neighbors. They do not undermine their growth. They have a real purpose or vision.


The figurehead, Antal, makes the best simulations in the galaxy too. They call him SimGuru, like Tech Guru

Galnet and in-game news articles

* Galaxy's Most Powerful People: Simguru Pranav Antal
https://community.elitedangerous.com/galnet/uid/5571e60e9657bae72433fa1d


* A Vision of the Future
https://community.elitedangerous.com/galnet/uid/5571e68c9657ba0a7533fa1e


* Simguru Offers to Share Tomorrow Today
https://community.elitedangerous.com/galnet/uid/557b03b39657ba8d6add8f7f


* Winters Sends Envoys to Utopia
https://community.elitedangerous.com/galnet/uid/557afb239657ba8b6add8f7f


* Peace and Prosperity through Production
https://community.elitedangerous.com/galnet/uid/559697e99657baef1c5913c1


* The Sim-Archive of Antal Opens to Visitors
https://community.elitedangerous.com/galnet/uid/55bb3e1f9657bafe5a2ff022


* Memorandum of Understanding between citizens of Utopia and Sirius Corp
https://community.elitedangerous.com/galnet/uid/559bd5129657ba9a154208e8

* Shelter from the Storm
https://community.elitedangerous.com/galnet/22-SEP-3301

attachment.php

attachment.php

attachment.php

attachment.php


I hope you had a lovely Christmas Chummrades!
https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteAntal/
 
Last edited:
There a lot of people who have decide that Antal is a dictator because erm... well they arent very imaginative.

By dictator, I'm referring solely to the amount of power he exerts, how firmly he has a hold on it, etc. I don't imply anything regarding his efficiency as a leader in terms of social justice, wealth, etc.

As part of the Alliance, I am very much aware that different doesn't necessarily mean oppressive.
 
I'd hate to be an Aisling player. Desperately fortifying every cycle just to tread water, nothing to do but ferry packages to expand or prepare either. No opposition, no challenge, just groaning under the weight of her own awful economy
 
Ah I see :)

Like Alliance Eddie would be a Dictator too then?


The Antal reddit group do some really nice stuff with Alliance player group Communism Interstellar.

See you in space Sir. Fly safe and eat lots of turkey sandwiches o7
 
Your analysis is quite flawed. You're thinking of CC as a currency, when in fact it is not - it is rather a measure of political influence. People are not forced to fortify, and many choose not to, so the economic exploitation argument crumbles.

Now, let's have a look at the actual definition of a cult:

a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object

- http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/cult

According to that it is religious. I don't think many people actually worship Aisling. Antal's society seems much more religious to me, though admittedly I haven't read much of the lore about it.

Nice try though ;)
 
Your analysis is quite flawed. You're thinking of CC as a currency, when in fact it is not - it is rather a measure of political influence.

True.

But - in cycle 28, despite seeing 0 actual undermining, Aisling's supporters pushed fortifications worth 3.2 billion credits (and another 3 billion credits worth of wasted fortifications). Just to stay out of turmoil, Aisling's supporters typically has to spend a minimum of 1.6 billion credits - and that's before she's even subjected to any undermining.

On the other side of the spectrum we have Edmund Mahon. His supporters pushed 1.3 billion credits worth of fortifications (including waste), and he saw a total of 2,791 CC worth of undermining.

So - while command capital is most certainly not currency, it does have an impact on the credit balance of the players.
 
True.

But - in cycle 28, despite seeing 0 actual undermining, Aisling's supporters pushed fortifications worth 3.2 billion credits (and another 3 billion credits worth of wasted fortifications). Just to stay out of turmoil, Aisling's supporters typically has to spend a minimum of 1.6 billion credits - and that's before she's even subjected to any undermining.

On the other side of the spectrum we have Edmund Mahon. His supporters pushed 1.3 billion credits worth of fortifications (including waste), and he saw a total of 2,791 CC worth of undermining.

So - while command capital is most certainly not currency, it does have an impact on the credit balance of the players.

This is true, however I still don't believe the economic exploitation argument is valid - people aren't being forced to spend credits on fortification, and if they didn't, we'd lose a few systems and stabilise as a smaller power. People are choosing to fortify a lot because they believe in the Princess and her cause.

Furthermore, Aisling pays everyone who is rank 5 50m per week, the same as any other power. I think it is reasonable to assume that, overall, she ends up paying out more money than people spend to fast-track powerplay commodities. She also increases the price of high-value commodities in her control systems by 10%, allowing her supporters to make vast amounts of money from trading - I have not yet seen a route more profitable out of Aisling space, slave trading or otherwise.
 
Ah I see :)

Like Alliance Eddie would be a Dictator too then?


The Antal reddit group do some really nice stuff with Alliance player group Communism Interstellar.

See you in space Sir. Fly safe and eat lots of turkey sandwiches o7

No, because Eddie doesn't have absolute power.

Your analysis is quite flawed. You're thinking of CC as a currency, when in fact it is not - it is rather a measure of political influence. People are not forced to fortify, and many choose not to, so the economic exploitation argument crumbles.

Now, let's have a look at the actual definition of a cult:



According to that it is religious. I don't think many people actually worship Aisling. Antal's society seems much more religious to me, though admittedly I haven't read much of the lore about it.

Nice try though ;)

If you use the oxford dictionary for societal structures, you're going to have a bad time.

A cult has been a subject of excessive discussion and there have been many 101's on what constitutes the buildings blocks of one. I provided some for you.

Aisling is a cult by the practices utilized by one to exert and hold power over a group of people. 100%.

Plus, I could argue that people do worship Aisling, because they ignore the facts about her incompetence to have anything done within the empire or her own economy. They remain with out of pure faith that "she is the one that will abolish slavery", when in fact she isn't.

So, yes, even though they don't worship her in the literal sense, they do consider her to be the Empire's "mesiah" when it comes to slavery. Religious devotion does exist and apply.

This is true, however I still don't believe the economic exploitation argument is valid - people aren't being forced to spend credits on fortification, and if they didn't, we'd lose a few systems and stabilise as a smaller power. People are choosing to fortify a lot because they believe in the Princess and her cause.

Furthermore, Aisling pays everyone who is rank 5 50m per week, the same as any other power. I think it is reasonable to assume that, overall, she ends up paying out more money than people spend to fast-track powerplay commodities. She also increases the price of high-value commodities in her control systems by 10%, allowing her supporters to make vast amounts of money from trading - I have not yet seen a route more profitable out of Aisling space, slave trading or otherwise.

A positive bank account balance does not imply a healthy economy.

It's true that the palladium routes from Torval to Aisling are second only to smuggling Slaves from Torval to Delaine, but that money only ends up being sucked by the black hole that is her lack of resources.
 
Last edited:
I could argue that people do worship Aisling, because they ignore the facts about her incompetence to have anything done within the empire or her own economy. They remain with out of pure faith that "she is the one that will abolish slavery", when in fact she isn't.

Yeah, that's not the case. First of all, that's your opinion - and, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're a member of the Alliance, yes? So obviously you're more likely to think that.

As a result of you being an outsider, you also have no idea what she has done "within the Empire", and as for the economy, that is an inherent problem of the space which we occupy. Mahon has very high-CC systems near him, whereas the Empire has generally low-CC systems. That's why Mahon is usually near the top, even though Aisling has many more effective merits each week and much less undermining. There's not a lot we can do about it.

"when in fact she isn't" - why do you think this?


A positive bank account balance does not imply a healthy economy.

It's true that the palladium routes from Torval to Aisling are second only to smuggling Slaves from Torval to Delaine, but that money only ends up being sucked by the black hole that is her lack of resources.

Actually, it is MORE profitable than slave smuggling. Slave smuggling routes have typically 5-10 jumps in them, whereas our palladium routes have two, or even one in some cases. The time it takes to run one loop more than makes up for the increased profit for each run, and furthermore you don't run the risk of getting scanned. Fuel costs are also lower, though those are pretty much insignificant.

"but that money only ends up being sucked by the black hole that is her lack of resources" - did you not read what I said? People aren't forced to spend money on fortification.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, that's not the case. First of all, that's your opinion - and, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're a member of the Alliance, yes? So obviously you're more likely to think that.

As a result of you being an outsider, you also have no idea what she has done "within the Empire", and as for the economy, that is an inherent problem of the space which we occupy. Mahon has very high-CC systems near him, whereas the Empire has generally low-CC systems. That's why Mahon is usually near the top, even though Aisling has many more effective merits each week and much less undermining. There's not a lot we can do about it.

"when in fact she isn't" - why do you think this?

You seem to think that Mahon got the systems for free. You forget that we started with the lowest average CC/system. Aisling did have profitable systems around her. I bet that her community has screwed them up royally early. You think Mahon has wealthy systems, what if I told you that we could have the exact same bubble size and amount of systems and yet have a completely worse total CC?

Let's assume there's 1 system with a total of 150 CC. This systems has 2 systems on each side that have a CC income of 70 each.

Mahon chose to control the 1 system. Most other powers have many occasions where they went for the 2 systems in the latter example in the early stages of PP. I assume you understand how the second example leads to a bad economy.

Mind you, Aisling has a real chance to remedy that, since noone undermines her. You guys have started over the last few cycles, but that's something you should be doing for the past 10 cycles, not the past 2. At this point, you should consider yourself lucky FD oversaw the pirate mechanics and the Kumo Crew is more interested in taking down Patreus.

And just because I'm in the Alliance doesn't seem I can't observe what's happening within Imperial Space. No person that hangs out with slavers can turn out to be an abolitionist. You either go against their interests or you don't.
 
Last edited:
You seem to think that Mahon got the systems for free. You forget that we started with the lowest average CC/system. Aisling did have profitable systems around her. I bet that her community has screwed them up royally early. You think Mahon has wealthy systems, what if I told you that we could have the exact same bubble size and amount of systems and yet have a completely worse total CC?

Let's assume there's 1 system with a total of 150 CC. This systems has 2 systems on each side that have a CC income of 70 each.

Mahon chose to control the 1 system. Most other powers have many occasions where they went for the 2 systems in the latter example in the early stages of PP. I assume you understand how the second example leads to a bad economy.

Mind you, Aisling has a real chance to remedy that, since noone undermines her. You guys have started over the last few cycles, but that's something you should be doing for the past 10 cycles, not the past 2. At this point, you should consider yourself lucky FD oversaw the pirate mechanics and the Kumo Crew is more interested in taking down Patreus.

Not entirely true. At the beginning of powerplay, overheads worked differently. The expansions we took made sense at the time, but FDev retroactively changed the way it worked, which massively screwed us over. There's little we can do about it, as the systems are difficult to shed. They do say a mechanic for shedding systems is in the works, so hopefully that will enable us to sort it out.
 
Not entirely true. At the beginning of powerplay, overheads worked differently. The expansions we took made sense at the time, but FDev retroactively changed the way it worked, which massively screwed us over. There's little we can do about it, as the systems are difficult to shed. They do say a mechanic for shedding systems is in the works, so hopefully that will enable us to sort it out.

Our systems were good prior the overheads change and only became better with the change. So you'll excuse me if I prove to be skeptical about such a statement as "made sense at the time". I don't think there were many systems that didn't benefit strongly from the change so claiming that the change screwed the entire economy of Aisling sounds like far from reality.

Aisling can be in the green within 5 cycles if she just...lets it go. While fortifying the few valuable systems of course. It doesn't seem like she will have any threats of collapsing anyway. If Patreus is still alive, so will Aisling.

Look at Antal, they revitalized their economy within 2 cycles and are now on the verge of growing to something considerably solid. Why Aisling pledgers think they can't do the same is beyond me, especially with the lowest levels of undermining anyone gets, week after week.

Well...except whenever you guys declare war to Winters...like the true cultists that you are, you have to destroy anyone else who offers an alternative cure to the problem that the self-appointed leader claims to be panacia from.

OK, maybe the last part isn't true and it's a special case, but she still fits the basis for a cult leader, just not a dangerous one. :p
 
Last edited:
Our systems were good prior the overheads change and only became better with the change. So you'll excuse me if I prove to be skeptical about such a statement as "made sense at the time". I don't think there were many systems that didn't benefit strongly from the change so claiming that the change screwed the entire economy of Aisling sounds like far from reality.

Aisling can be in the green within 5 cycles if she just...lets it go. While fortifying the few valuable systems of course. It doesn't seem like she will have any threats of collapsing anyway. If Patreus is still alive, so will Aisling.

Look at Antal, they revitalized their economy within 2 cycles and are now on the verge of growing to something considerably solid. Why Aisling pledgers think they can't do the same is beyond me, especially with the lowest levels of undermining anyone gets, week after week.

Well...except whenever you guys declare war to Winters...like the true cultists that you are, you have to destroy anyone else who offers an alternative cure to the problem that the self-appointed leader claims to be panacia from.

OK, maybe the last part isn't true and it's a special case, but she still fits the basis for a cult leader, just not a dangerous one. :p

Believe me, we have people working on this constantly. I'm not one of the maths people, my expertise is in other areas, but I assure you that it's really not as simple as you make it out to be.

I wasn't very active during the first few cycles of powerplay, so I can't comment on any specific questions - I'm just repeating what I've been told.

Anyway. If you hate Aisling so much... Don't pledge to her maybe? ;)
 
Believe me, we have people working on this constantly. I'm not one of the maths people, my expertise is in other areas, but I assure you that it's really not as simple as you make it out to be.

I wasn't very active during the first few cycles of powerplay, so I can't comment on any specific questions - I'm just repeating what I've been told.

Anyway. If you hate Aisling so much... Don't pledge to her maybe? ;)

Oh, I love Aisling and I'm sure she would love me as well were she to accept my requests of giving her a tour around Alioth. Her community...meh, a little too often a drama haven for my liking. I do like you and your unruliness as well. But it wouldn't be fun without some rustled jimmies every now and then, would it?

Plus, the fact that she now functions like a cult leader doesn't mean that she can't work wonders in the future. Who knows. Even with the current mechanics, PP is fluid enough to have some impressive swings happen from time to time. Like I said, Antal's rejuvenation was completely out of the blue, 2 cycles and...poof...a power that is now packing an economy.
 
Mahon has very high-CC systems near him, [...] That's why Mahon is usually near the top

Can we just dispel this blatant lie once and for all, please? If all current control systems were redistributed and given to the power that had the closest headquarters, this is what the distribution would look like:

PowersCurrent CS CountNew CS CountChangeCC LostCC GainedChange
Aisling Duval60622-1,030658-372
Archon Delaine41465-209812603
Arissa Lavigny-Duval7756-21-2,395858-1,537
Denton Patreus5047-3-1,7611,221-540
Edmund Mahon8253-29-4,008180-3,828
Felicia Winters66748-1,0132,2321,219
Li Yong-Rui5552-3-902504-398
Pranav Antal39390-38439612
Zachary Hudson799011-2,0673,4371,370
Zemina Torval538330-9464,4173,471

No other power even comes CLOSE to the losses that Edmund Mahon would suffer in this change. ALD is off by a full third in lost control systems and Mahon loses two and a half times as much CC from it.

Every single major faction would grow in number of control systems AND command capital income EXCEPT the Alliance.

Major FactionCS ChangeCC ChangeCC/CS
Alliance-29-3,828132
Empire81,022128
Federation192,589136
Independents2217109

I am quite frankly SICK AND TIRED of the claim that the only reason Mahon has such a well functioning eco-system, is because we have high income control systems close to us.

We worked our collective asses off to get those control systems. Control systems that are so far away, that pretty much all other powers look at them and cry while saying "it's impossible to fortify those systems", yet we keep them around without whining about them. Of the ten most distant control systems currently in PowerPlay, Edmund Mahon has 7 of them and only ONE of them would remain with Mahon after this kind of change.

Seriously - enough is enough. Every time this subject comes up, people (especially Aisling players) says that Mahon was given a great starting position. This is demonstrably false!

This is what the score board would look like with these changes. And look at that - Aisling had a better starting position than Arissa (by quite a margin), but she's still much worse off these days. There are a lot of reasons that Aisling's ecosystem is the absolute worst in PowerPlay and that Mahon's ecosystem is the absolute best, but starting position had nothing to do with it.

PowerNew CS CountCC Change
Zachary Hudson901,370
Zemina Torval833,471
Felicia Winters741,219
Aisling Duval62-372
Arissa Lavigny-Duval56-1,537
Edmund Mahon53-3,828
Li Yong-Rui52-398
Denton Patreus47-540
Archon Delaine46603
Pranav Antal3912

It's not even CLOSE to being true, and every time this lie is repeated, I can feel something wet running down my back as the people repeating it are ing up and down all the hard work Mahon pledges have put into our power. And stop hiding behind "well, I don't do the maths for our power" - if you feel qualified to make these judgements, then own up to your mistakes rather than hiding away from them.
 
A most excellent post, CMDR Shou. I have put you in for a commendation at Dublin Citadel.

Regarding Smurf Khalesi: It would not be the first time a beautiful but incompetent leader has found support and love from a needy populace.
The idolisation of useless celebrities and false heroes has been a part of Human history since the evil Kardashian Trollops of the 21st century.

The Alliance are on top for 3 basic reasons:
We are efficiently organized and not hampered by the militaristic bureaucracy of the Federales nor do we have the systemic mediocrity of the feudal Imps.

Long Live Freedom, Long Live Donut Boy.
 
Last edited:
And that's assuming that the control systems of Imperial powers are of at least optimal value, which I highly doubt they are.

If only FD gave us a way to check the potential value of bubbles within already claimed territory without the need to spend 40-60 minutes of real time manually calculating it, it would be so much easier to show how damaged some ecosystems are, despite being at least positive at first.

If Delaine has positive systems nearby that they recently claimed, everyone did, no exceptions.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom