is atmospheric landing even possible with either of the 38 playable ships???

777Driver

777Driver
CMDR Maylor Rom said:
Any ship that would fly or glide requires Lift and Drag IS an issue.

It's called the "Lift to Drag" Coefficient.

The lift to drag ratio (L/D) is the amount of lift generated by a wing or airfoil compared to its drag. The lift/drag ratio is used to express the relation between lift and drag and is determined by dividing the lift coefficient by the drag coefficient, CL/CD. A ratio of L/D indicates airfoil efficiency.

I know it's hard to grasp.
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I am 42, have been flying since 17 years old. I'll ask again, why would any of our ships require aerodynamic lift , when they are capable of producing more than enough thrust to overcome gravity and drag.

These ships would only need a lifting body due to an engine out situation, one slight problem though, no elevators, ailerons or rudder. Without thrusters, that lifting body is basically an uncontrolled glide into the dirt.
 
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Ralph Vargr

Ralph Vargr
CMDR Maylor Rom said:
Any ship that would fly or glide requires Lift and Drag IS an issue.

It's called the "Lift to Drag" Coefficient.

The lift to drag ratio (L/D) is the amount of lift generated by a wing or airfoil compared to its drag. The lift/drag ratio is used to express the relation between lift and drag and is determined by dividing the lift coefficient by the drag coefficient, CL/CD. A ratio of L/D indicates airfoil efficiency.

I know it's hard to grasp.
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How many of our players would know what an NACA airfoil was? :)
 

Hellfire85

Hellfire85
The only issue that might appear is turbulences and other atmospheric interferences due to the various shapes of the ships. Lift won't be an issue because as said before, our ships can safely lift off from +10G planets.
And I guess the descent from orbit might also be a little longer due to the incapability for some of our ships to glide in atmospheres.
But since we are talking about a game that starts to use more and more handwavium, we will get the same glide mechanics as we have now just with some kind of re-entry effect and a bit of added shaking and rumbling.
 
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Ralph Vargr

Ralph Vargr
CMDR Maylor Rom said:
I am 64, flying since I was 15 and also have a pilots license. Your question is a mix of science fiction verses science fact. I am speaking of lifting bodies (science fact) which will work in Earth's atmosphere and aerodynamically speaking, the Viper and Cobra are the closest match. Now, your adding Elite ship engines (science fiction) to the mix, which is an unknown and speculation.

Why would "any of OUR ships" require anything? It's a game and the programmers can make anything possible.

You, as a pilot, very well know that.
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Only flying since I was four years old. :)
 

777Driver

777Driver
CMDR Maylor Rom said:
, which is an unknown and speculation.
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It is not unknown speculation,we tested this all years ago, and discussed it with the old Exec producer. We wanted more of a challenge, and brought up the fact that this will cause major inconsistencies if atmo landings come into play.

Early tests showed that the acceleration of our thrusters is always at least 5m/s² more than the gravitational acceleration

Do you own Horizons?

We have ships ingame that are designed to be aerodynamic, then they added a thruster cheat that made all of that pointless.
 
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Ca$hback

Ca$hback
Shields alter their shape for aerodynamic perfection and lift. Shields would take care of all trim, flaps etc. Shields ought to be of great importance for rapid entry or even just atmosflight. But if the star doesn't heat us up more when we're fuel scooping shieldless I doubt shields will play such a major role, if any, in atmosflight. I imagine "atmospheric" cruise will either follow or replace orbital cruise on relevant planets, being analogous to but slower than orbital cruise. Would be nice if there was a combination of a cruise speed that goes slower based on the density but also of effects from the higher speeds in a thicker atmosphere. Instead of just slower speeds or more intense effects. Example: atmosphere is twice as thick so you go 75% speed instead of 50%. The other 25% is taken out on your ship in heating upon reentry, with visual effects ranging from a slight glow to a fireball and heat/stress punishments on the ship.
Heat on the way in or out is the main problem. The other is dust. Light gravity, low wind dust is a killer surely as high wind high gravity dust is. Landing on a surface that isn't too soft.
All those details will be considered mundane though. We'll probably get another orbital cruise at 1,250 with a little fireball regardless of where we are or how thick the atmosphere is. When you decend through clouds and the cruise is finished you get a little rain on the canopy and maybe buffeted by a little wind. No POIs yet. Just "atmosphere". Rain etc.
Honestly if there's one thing I trust most about this game it's the sound design. Rain on the canopy might yet be one of FDevs masterpieces.
 

GraXXoR

GraXXoR
NorthernDevo said:
What I would personally like to see is this: while the ship shape itself shouldn't be realistically represented in atmosphere (like you say, the T-7 is basically just a brick) it should make entry harder. A ship passing through the atmosphere should have strong shields, EVERY pip in SYS and enter the atmosphere slowly. Atmospheric friction should heat the ships up terribly - kind of like hitting 2 SCB's without a HS on board - if the angle or speed is too great.

:)
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This! If only.... T_T But remember that FDEV already dropped the baton, tripped over and sprained their knee with regard to using shields for thermal protection...

The fact is, an elite dangerous ship can fly through flares and prominences of an O class star with a surface temperature of 20,000K even with a broken canopy and no shields.
Atmosphere is of zero consequence compared to that.

During the first alpha stages when, IIRC there were only 6 systems or something and fuel scooping was being introduced... I pushed for shields to be required as part of the fuel scooping mechanic. Shields should have been a requirement to get anywhere near a star and the solar radiation should tax shields more and more the closer you get, meaning scooping from anything hotter than A class should require serious shields.

The fact is, you burn up as quickly next to a Super-Jupiter class Y brown dwarf with a surface temperature of 400K as you do next to a classO hyper giant filling 40% of your entire skybox.

Fighting PVP near a sun and having your shields drop should be a brown trouser moment not just a hey-hum... whatever... snoozefest.

Same with reentry at any significant speed.


Leadfoot said:
They SHOULD be aerodynamic, shouldn't they? Eventually we'll have to ram that thing right smack into the atmosphere in even the oddest shape of spacecraft.

In reality, probably not. What save us from this "reality" is that (1) we have shields that can protect us from the fiery blaze of reentry and (2) it's a game so Science doesn't always count. More likely the answer to this issue will be #2.
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Same thing as above... You could have a cracked canopy with 10% hull and scoop from from a blue hyper giant or whizz through its prominences without breaking a sweat... You're more likely to die from asphyxiation due to the largest oxygen tank in ED having a rather... (searches for a word to avoid forum ban)... odd... 25 minute capacity.
 
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NorthernDevo

NorthernDevo
GraXXoR said:
This! If only.... T_T But remember that FDEV already dropped the baton, tripped over and sprained their knee with regard to using shields for thermal protection...

The fact is, an elite dangerous ship can fly through flares and prominences of an O class star with a surface temperature of 20,000K even with a broken canopy and no shields.
Atmosphere is of zero consequence compared to that.

During the first alpha stages when, IIRC there were only 6 systems or something and fuel scooping was being introduced... I pushed for shields to be required as part of the fuel scooping mechanic. Shields should have been a requirement to get anywhere near a star and the solar radiation should tax shields more and more the closer you get, meaning scooping from anything hotter than A class should require serious shields.

The fact is, you burn up as quickly next to a Super-Jupiter class Y brown dwarf with a surface temperature of 400K as you do next to a classO hyper giant filling 40% of your entire skybox.

Fighting PVP near a sun and having your shields drop should be a brown trouser moment not just a hey-hum... whatever... snoozefest.

Same with reentry at any significant speed.
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My main concern is that entry into an atmosphere would be too easy - it ought to require some risk, if only to make it funner lol.
One thing we DO know about atmospheric landings, though, will be this: One half of ED players will scream that it is too hard. One half of ED players will scream that it is too easy. Half of them will say the Devs have ruined the game, and the other half will say it is unplayable - while putting thousands of hours in. ;) So long as it makes sense withing the ED universe, I'll be happy.
:)
 

[VR] Orodruin

[VR] Orodruin
NorthernDevo said:
Now - add an atmosphere into the mix, and you've got SERIOUS complications.
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Technically, atmospheric approach is still done in supercruise until you drop out. Since supercruise-juice is already breaking the laws of physics, I do not see why this magic technology cannot be argued to also pull the atmosphere aside. However, it would be cool if the atmosphere somehow affected the ship's shields.

Greasetrap42 said:
If its okay for the Falcon, then its okay for your Krait.

View attachment 173691
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Where do I get this ship kit for the Krait?
 

Ashnak

Ashnak
777Driver said:
These ships would only need a lifting body due to an engine out situation, one slight problem though, no elevators, ailerons or rudder. Without thrusters, that lifting body is basically an uncontrolled glide into the dirt.
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Have you actually looked at a Beluga or a Federal Gunship?
 

777Driver

777Driver
Ashnak said:
Have you actually looked at a Beluga or a Federal Gunship?
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Yeah I own all ships in game, except for the Asp scout. For arguments sake let say those ridiculous fins many ships have are for roll and pitch (they don't have yaw)

Let take the Beluga, it's weight is near 15,000 tonnes on Archenar 3, it's ventral thrusters have no issue lifting the ship with stock thrusters, hovering, then climbing at up to 1000km/h (276m/s) with no engineering.

The devs are going to struggle to come up with a reason why that same Beluga is suddenly struggling on a 4g world due to some atmospheric drag.

It would be just as strange as scooping from a star, then going critical because it entered an atmosphere at a speed slower than those paper thin Space trucks used to build the ISS, the Orbiters hit the atmosphere at around 17,500mph with only one loss.

None of us where asking for ultra realism, just some consistency in the early design phase. They most definitely changed things to provide a safety net for explorers, unlimited thrust being the major one.

Aerodynamic designs and lifting bodies are there to reduce drag and fuel burn, our ships do not burn fuel based on thrust output. You could travel through a dense atmosphere, or Barron moon, you will burn the same amount of fuel.
 
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VDIV

V
What about some of the ship kits?
HighResScreenShot_2020-05-06_21-14-57.jpg
 
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