Is ED a SKINNER BOX Game?

Cmdr Eagleboy
So what's your point?? Did you watch the YT link if so did you understand it? You get your say in this but if brow beating is the best you can come up with then. So you paid for ED and only play 3/4's of it okay, thanks for your input.

You might as well consider any game to be skinner - unless you're curing smallpox in your spare time or doing something else of actual practical use in the world. Pixels on a screen = skinner box.

Though fine you have to collect things - 'if you want' - to upgrade your ship;

HOW you upgrade - ie. which mats you prefer, how you manage material storage, the order you engineer modules in - so forth and etc - are strategy tactical decisions and as such are decidedly non skinner type.
 
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There are a multitude of rinse and repeat actions in this game like hunting the mats for the engineers, USS, SRV planet side shooting rock's, just think about it what you had to go through to unlock the engineers and the repetitive nature of your actions. Its lazy game mechanic's, so instead we'll get you to do something over and over and give you something at the end SKINNER BOX???

Powerplay join for a month before you have a say and get that (oh my god reward) that you can't get in the rest of the game, also there's the $50mil carrot reward if you do this rinse and repeat action for 10,000 merits yeah SKINNER BOX???

I can hear the trolls and nay sayers sharpening there keyboards ( stab it with there steely knives but they just cant kill the beast )

Just give this a look and make a educated response don't shot from the hip.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c



Every game is a sequence of rinse and repeat actions, but most games only have a play time of 8 to 20 hours.
Because of that it is not as noticeable.

VARIATION IN ENVIRONMENTS

A first person shooter can easily camouflage it's fundamental rinse and repeat nature by changing the environment all the time, giving you different areas that change the experience enough for you not to notice that you are doing the same thing over and over again.

In a space sim this is much more difficult.
FD needs to create different environments , but in space the options are very limited.
There is empty space of course, asteroid rings of different types, areas with large structures, planetary surfaces etc.
I think FD should try to utilize all the options it has more than it does now. That is why I asked for true imperial space and planetary station designs to make imperial space feel different. That is why I would like to see Stations and complexes in and close to asteroid rings, or prison stations, military battlestations, mining complexes etc. etc.


SATISFYING MECHANICS

What is also needed are deep and satisfying mechanics.

That is why the current uninteresting and superficial exploration honk mechanic needs to be replaced by something more interesting like an exploration probe mechanic (as I explained in one of my proposals). That is also why I think that the presentation and visualization of exploration data on the screen should become more interesting. The way this is done should give you the feeling that you ARE an explorer.
That is also why I explained that the proposed Orrery map should not be an afterthought but should be considered a core mechanic for exploration mechanics and the presentation of exploration data.

That is also why we need a more solid and satisfying planetary navigation mechanic that gives you full and satisfying control of planetary navigation.

That is also why I asked for more player agency in Supercruise. I would be good to have more 'piloty' things to do during supercruise flight. We might for example use pips to influence the ships behavior.

That is also why I asked for the HUD to change when in Supercruise like it does on a planetary surface.
It might seem like a small thing, but for a space sim, where you are sitting in your ship 99% of the time, the HUD is your window on the world. If there would be more variation in the HUD in various flight situations this would help enormously to enhance the experience.


That's enough of that. I have made more, and more detailed proposals elsewhere.


The ED universe is of course a work in progress. THe game will get more and more features and refinements over time.
 
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I'd prefer player adjustable sliders. Keep the bonuses, and make "favours" essential for special affects. I don't mind having to grind for mats so much, if I know roughly what I'll get at the end of it.

I wasted 3 hours, and 20 odd dice rolls yesterday trying to improve my FSD (it's not a God Roll), and just felt like I had absolutely wasted my day when I didn't get a single roll even close to what I had. Now, for another round, I'll need to grind way more, as I have no arsenic and no DWE's. It really makes me want to just not log in.

Z...

Same here. My first Anaconda FSD, I got a 55% on the third roll. Last night I used all 30 rolls I had on another and got no higher than 45%. TBH, I just don't understand all complication, too much for this old head :(
 
I'm pretty sure that ED is a spaceship simulator and not a pellet dispenser.

Try playing with a pellet dispenser for 2 years and let me know how that goes.
 
It's not a sandbox, you need sand to have a sandbox. I think you mean Open World - and at best it's an MMO-Lite.

Id say it's more accurate to say Empty Box rather than sand box or open world.

To say sand box or open world would imply you can go anywhere and do anything, but you can't.

Empty box implies there's space inside but nothing much to do with that space, so it's a more accurate description of ED right now.

I'm pretty sure that ED is a spaceship simulator and not a pellet dispenser.

Try playing with a pellet dispenser for 2 years and let me know how that goes.

At least a pellet dispenser gives you satisfying rewards, all ED does is take away your time and as a reward, asks for more of your time!
 
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I'd prefer player adjustable sliders. Keep the bonuses, and make "favours" essential for special affects. I don't mind having to grind for mats so much, if I know roughly what I'll get at the end of it.
It's fascinating how people see different ways out for the same issue. I'm happy with random factor if I don't have to grind, while you're happy with the grind if you know what you're going to get.

I wonder if there's a halfway solution. Maybe increase material drop frequency slightly, but also allow manipulation of the tolerances for Engineer results rather than the results themselves? So you could narrow the probability for an FSD multiplier so it's right at the top end, but all the others would widen. I still feel there needs to be some random element to the results, even if it's only the "unwanted" results. The problem with allowing full manipulation of the sliders is that a meta would quickly emerge and everyone would immediately be flying identical ships again.

The root of all this is, as with many things, FD's failure to understand human behaviour. Their plan for the Engineers was that it would add some variety to the ships flying around the galaxy, to encourage players to do things they wouldn't normally do (mining, exploration), and to gate some content (Palin's racks are essential for interacting with some of the alien stuff).

They clearly figured any improvement over stock would be seen as a good thing and players would be happy with whatever they got, maybe returning later when passing by to have another go as part of the natural game loops. But they completely underestimated the human desire to have the best, to interpret a range of "blue" results not as a range of wins but as a range from loser to winner with full "victory" only attained with a maximum roll and a maximum bonus.

And that's just for PVE players. Factor in PVP, where the next guy you meet might have the perfect God-rolled ship, and you end up with players spending most of their time grinding the Engineers and the remainder shooting at other players who've been grinding the Engineers. I'm sure that's not what FD intended, but it's what they got. And anybody with a modicum of gaming knowledge could have told them that's exactly what they'd get, if only they'd fully revealed their plans for the Engineer mechanic beforehand.

Mind you, it could be worse. Can you imagine what the grind would be like if they'd kept the requirement for multiple materials and commodities per roll? Nightmare.

I don't know what the answer is, other than the ideas we've kicked around above. Maybe there could be multiple blueprints for the same modification, using different materials, and the rarer the material used the narrower the range of results? So you could roll lots of common materials over a long time, or a small number of rarer materials in a short time, and the outcome would be the same? Difficult to balance in a way that didn't favour one method over the other (or at least didn't give the impression of favouring one over the other; back to Skinner's behavioural experiments). But if done right it would give players a choice between grinding for rare materials, or repeatedly playing the casino, but not force them to do both.

Or maybe keep the same blueprints, but allow the player to allocate his entire store of the needed materials in exchange for an improved likelihood of success, effectively offsetting the number of rolls against the quality of the final result? Or would that just encourage players to do even more grinding so they carried the maximum materials for a given blueprint? What if we then capped the system to allow a maximum of, say, ten of each material per roll? Would the psychology of that work, or are we now back to where we started but with a narrower target for the ultimate God roll?

Gah, humans.

I wasted 3 hours, and 20 odd dice rolls yesterday trying to improve my FSD (it's not a God Roll), and just felt like I had absolutely wasted my day when I didn't get a single roll even close to what I had. Now, for another round, I'll need to grind way more, as I have no arsenic and no DWE's. It really makes me want to just not log in.
It's awful. I spent a week (somewhere between 7 and 14 hours) looking for one particular material without a single hit. In the end I exploited a quirk (some might say a bug, it's hard to know with FD) in the game and got what I needed after an hour. It certainly required a lot of relogging to reset the RNG. Neither of these is good gameplay.
 
A new variation of the usual complaints....
It's completely understandable that one game's mechanics doesn't appeal to all. The parts you're complaining about are basically the core elements of the game. PowerPlay is about the long-long play supporting your faction of choice. The module and credit rewards are just sugar on the top and a small recoup for your investments, respectively.
Yes, there are a lot of details that need refinements or added depth, but, the mechanics is what makes this game. It's been working like that since the first instalment of Elite.
Engineering is only "grindy" if you expect to get absolutely maxed out rolls on every module you have. It's not hard to get a good engineered module of your choice with a handful rolls.
Hopefully Frontier gets better at squashing bugs that affect spawn rate of various materials. I think, that's something they really need to focus on harder. Not making everything instantly available for the players who doesn't really want to play the game.
 
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Many modern games fall into this description. Anything with progress bars, rankings, level ups, prestiges... all the same thing, so far as I care. Personally I don't enjoy playing those kinds of games, I suppose a combination of my not really feeling any pressure to get 100% completion on every progress bar a game designer throws in, plus my not really thinking that the mechanics involved in many of these games are actually what I'd call "gameplay".

Elite does have many of these design elements, but is different for me, however. I've played a ton of it and shall continue. Elite doesn't force me to get into "loop" play that most grinder games require. Sure, some content (ships, permits, etc.) are behind a grind wall. But the things I personally find the most fun are not trapped behind those loops.

I'm a billionaire, can afford any ship, but never will commit to the rank grind stuff for the Cutter or Corvette. I think it would kill the pleasure of playing Elite, for me. Happily, some of the best real fun for me in Elite is actually the simple and small stuff. Exploring planets off in the SRV, out prospecting rocks in a beautiful ring, or like last night, tangling with Imperial Clippers and FGS in an un-engineered Eagle. That's where I'm on the edge of the seat, having the most fun, even if those things don't really progress any bars or ranks. I'm glad Elite offers me the option to play it my way and enjoy those things, outside those loops.
 
There are a multitude of rinse and repeat actions in this game like hunting the mats for the engineers, USS, SRV planet side shooting rock's, just think about it what you had to go through to unlock the engineers and the repetitive nature of your actions. Its lazy game mechanic's, so instead we'll get you to do something over and over and give you something at the end SKINNER BOX???

Powerplay join for a month before you have a say and get that (oh my god reward) that you can't get in the rest of the game, also there's the $50mil carrot reward if you do this rinse and repeat action for 10,000 merits yeah SKINNER BOX???

I can hear the trolls and nay sayers sharpening there keyboards ( stab it with there steely knives but they just cant kill the beast )

Just give this a look and make a educated response don't shot from the hip.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c

The only Troll I see here is you. Your last four posts all seem to be negative. Could it be your unhappy with ED? Then why play it? Nearly all games require you to jump through the hoops in one way or another. So why does that matter? Your simply upset because ED does not fit your narrative. Do yourself, and perhaps others a favor and move on to something that you might like.

Chief
 
There are a multitude of rinse and repeat actions in this game like hunting the mats for the engineers, USS, SRV planet side shooting rock's, just think about it what you had to go through to unlock the engineers and the repetitive nature of your actions. Its lazy game mechanic's, so instead we'll get you to do something over and over and give you something at the end SKINNER BOX???

Powerplay join for a month before you have a say and get that (oh my god reward) that you can't get in the rest of the game, also there's the $50mil carrot reward if you do this rinse and repeat action for 10,000 merits yeah SKINNER BOX???

I can hear the trolls and nay sayers sharpening there keyboards ( stab it with there steely knives but they just cant kill the beast )

Just give this a look and make a educated response don't shot from the hip.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c

Well done chief your the 1st to make own my ignore list... Cheers

It's often good to ignore those with a different opinion as then you can just listen to your on prattle and be happy.

Chief
 
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At least a pellet dispenser gives you satisfying rewards, all ED does is take away your time and as a reward, asks for more of your time!

How many hours of playing E: D did it take you to arrive at this conclusion?

Are you a masochist or is someone forcing you to play E: D?
 
I can hear the trolls and nay sayers sharpening there keyboards ( stab it with there steely knives but they just cant kill the beast )

Not sure if you're making that reference because you've seen it around the boards, but Hotel California lyrics are usually quoted when something belongs in the Open vs Solo thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...en-v-Solo-v-Groups-thread-IV-Hotel-California Just FYI.

Also, calling people who might disagree with you 'trolls' even before anyone has had a chance to respond is kind of off-putting.
 
Not sure if you're making that reference because you've seen it around the boards, but Hotel California lyrics are usually quoted when something belongs in the Open vs Solo thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...en-v-Solo-v-Groups-thread-IV-Hotel-California Just FYI.

Also, calling people who might disagree with you 'trolls' even before anyone has had a chance to respond is kind of off-putting.

Careful there Metascrawl or you'll end up on his ignor list as I did.

Chief
 
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I didn't call him a troll he added nothing to the topic just my past posts and I should go play another game I couldn't see the point in keeping him around... Sorry chief but I may have just taken a shot from the hip...
 
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