Is ED cursed? 'Cursed Problems in Game Design'

[-VR- Max Factor]

Complexity is an opinion because it's a personally relative state. What one person considers complex another may not despite the actual state being static.

No its not. You can have experience with that complex stuff which make it easier to understand, but that doesn't stop it being complex.

There can be complex wiring in a car, but a car engineer with experience will find that complex wiring easy to sort out or understand. It doesn't stop it from being complex though.

 

[House0fDerp]

No its not. You can have experience with that complex stuff which make it easier to understand, but that doesn't stop it being complex.

There can be complex wiring in a car, but a car engineer with experience will find that complex wiring easy to sort out or understand. It doesn't stop it from being complex though.

We're not going to convince each other here. So this is an agree to disagree point.

 

[Enderby]

Cursed only in the sense of being ly developed

 

[Gortron]

Are there any "cursed problems" specific to Elite Dangerous? It's an interesting video anyway!

No; they are poorly manged and have really crap ideas. David Braben had (and might still not have) never played Eve Online. How on earth that could have happened I don't know. The guy that invented a genre didn't bother playing the pinnacle of what it lead to. The only really good things they have are IP and absolutely amazing sound engineers.

If I ran FDEV I'd demerge the company into a Theme park game developer and Sound Studio. Sooner or later someone is gonna steal the audio team!

 

[zimms]

There is nothing complex about NMS.

Nope. It's a fact. There is nothing complex about the game. How its made, the code, I don't know, but the gameplay has the depth of a small puddle. It's as straight forward as it gets.

Those are the kind of statements you wouldn't stand for if somebody talked about Frontier/Elite like that. Are Frontier the only developers who deserve to be treated with respect?

Okay, that question wasn't fair and I was exaggerating, but I think it's a bit funny how roles get reversed when you switch the game.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

No; they are poorly manged and have really crap ideas. David Braben had (and might still not have) never played Eve Online. How on earth that could have happened I don't know. The guy that invented a genre didn't bother playing the pinnacle of what it lead to. The only really good things they have are IP and absolutely amazing sound engineers.

If I ran FDEV I'd demerge the company into a Theme park game developer and Sound Studio. Sooner or later someone is gonna steal the audio team!

I have trouble understanding why someone would expect Eve-like from a game that was always a dedicated SP game.

 

[Rat Catcher]

There is nothing complex about NMS.

That's an opinion.

Nope. It's a fact. There is nothing complex about the game. How its made, the code, I don't know, but the gameplay has the depth of a small puddle. It's as straight forward as it gets.

That's an opinion.

There is no factual uniform standard or line that causes something to transition from simple to complex. Elite itself is pretty simple. A few basic rules and you're set. IMO. Others may feel this is not the case. But that's ok, they're right in their personal evaluation.

Nope. An opinion is whether I like the lack of complexity or not.

Whether it's complex or not, is not an opinion.

That is also an opinion, but not one that invalidates the first evaluation from being an opinion.

Complexity is a state, not an opinion.

Complexity is an opinion because it's a personally relative state. What one person considers complex another may not despite the actual state being static.

NMS is simple... it used to be very grindy before the Horizons update made storage a non-issue... But of course the update was followed by bases no longer functional as the player has to, suddenly, research a power source to make things work that were perfectly functional previously...
Latest great idea is the 'Living Ship' grind... Great gameplay there... All to be the proud owner of a less-than-spectacular ship...

ED cannot be compared against NMS - that is along the same lines of comparing Carmageddon with ACC... They both have cars in...
In its own niche NMS is ok, both amazing and abysmal changes have been made in the past year, and the amount of bug fixing introducing further issues is epic!
I like to play NMS when I'm in the mood for simple entertainment...
I also like to play ED, it allows my imagination to have scope...
simple

 

[Rat Catcher]

"NMS is simpler than ED"

NMS is simpler than ED because...
I could just pick the game up and fly the ships, do gathering (grinding) of materials needed without any extended setup of controls or special training - my hand held every step of the way.
I can just upgrade, by grinding, my ships to S class and have the 'best' easily.
Even 300 hours in, every time I go back into the game I can just play the starter missions as 9 of 10 times it will have glitched to put me back on that path.. (That is just bugs... but!)
It doesn't matter which galaxy I'm in, I can fast-travel millions of light years immediately...
I could start the game in creator mode and just build myself into oblivion, nothing else needed to do...
I can even shoot ships down without even breaking a sweat...

I do have a longer list, if you wish me to illustrate further

In its own right, the game is fine, it doesn't expect much from the player but grind (as ED is accused of too!) for whatever shiny is introduced next. Simple, easy and relaxing. (Unlike the spreadsheet management neded prior to Horizons)

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

First of all, you should educate yourself a bit to understand, that thing cannot be "complex" or "simple" on its own, in the vacuum. It can be "more complex" or "less complex" only as compared to something else.
So, saying that "NMS is not complex" is a nonsense. One can only say something like "NMS is less complex than NNN".

Second, the phrase "NMS is simpler than ED" can be posed as either opinion, or statement.
According to your message, you are trying to pose it as a statement. The statement should be proved / confirmed by arguments and examples, unless you are ok with being windbag.

So, will you provide exhaustive analysis / items list, from which you stated that "NMS is simpler than ED"? Or you will agree that it was just your personal opinion?

Meaning of the word complex:
1. consisting of many different and connected parts.

2. a group or system of different things that are linked in a close or complicated way; a network.

I suggest you educate yourself.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

First of all, you should educate yourself a bit to understand, that thing cannot be "complex" or "simple" on its own, in the vacuum. It can be "more complex" or "less complex" only as compared to something else.
So, saying that "NMS is not complex" is a nonsense. One can only say something like "NMS is less complex than NNN".

Second, the phrase "NMS is simpler than ED" can be posed as either opinion, or statement.
According to your message, you are trying to pose it as a statement. The statement should be proved / confirmed by arguments and examples, unless you are ok with being windbag.

So, will you provide exhaustive analysis / items list, from which you stated that "NMS is simpler than ED"? Or you will agree that it was just your personal opinion?

We all know the difference between good and bad. Even pets and toddlers have a rudimentary concept of it. No need for relativism in duity concepts.
But at least without SC is philosophically superior remarks. Or whatever other dreamstate can be pulled from the rear.

 

[House0fDerp]

I could just pick the game up and fly the ships, do gathering (grinding) of materials needed without any extended setup of controls or special training - my hand held every step of the way.

I did just this in ED with one exception, the default controlls on my stick for some reason had several functions bound to the same botton in the SRV by default.

So I guess ED was more complex here by way of carelessness. Not that that's a good thing.

I can just upgrade, by grinding, my ships to S class and have the 'best' easily.

So same as ED, Borann for credits, HGEs for mats, brain trees for raws if you want to travel or geo sites in you don't, crash sites for data. Max everything.

It doesn't matter which galaxy I'm in, I can fast-travel millions of light years immediately...

Not seeing how this makes the game simple. You think ED is more complex because it makes you travel slower?

I could start the game in creator mode and just build myself into oblivion, nothing else needed to do...

Right, it adds a mode for those interested in the base building aspect. I'm going to call that a point in NMS's favor.

I can even shoot ships down without even breaking a sweat...

Been doing that for years here.

 

[House0fDerp]

Meaning of the word complex:
1. consisting of many different and connected parts.

2. a group or system of different things that are linked in a close or complicated way; a network.

I suggest you educate yourself.

NMS has many different and connected parts.

NMS contains different gameplay elements that are linked and interact.

So I guess you have proven NMS is complex.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Been doing that for years here.

I'm so impressed... Anything else you have been doing for years?
Add any points in favour of NMS you wish, it doesn't change it from being a simple game, does it?

 

[House0fDerp]

I'm so impressed... Anything else you have been doing for years?
Add any points in favour of NMS you wish, it doesn't change it from being a simple game, does it?

According to the evidence presented thus far, no, it's not a simple game by the definition provided by Max.

Aside from that, anything else going on that's got you all salty at me for not going along with the "trash NMS because it's not ED" train? How are you? What else have you been doing for years?

 

[Rat Catcher]

According to the evidence presented thus far, no, it's not a simple game by the definition provided by Max.

Aside from that, anything else going on that's got you all salty at me for not going along with the "trash NMS because it's not ED" train? How are you? What else have you been doing for years?

Wow... I make a comment that I can shoot ships easily, you come back with "I've been doing that for years" (which of course beggars the question "what else") - and qualify by that comment alone it is simple, obviously...

Me, I'm great thanks, worked hard enough to retire very early, having a ball... Playing games for entertainment, and visiting this forum in particular for its diverse and interesting userbase...

And, as usual, you failed to read my entire comment previously..

In its own niche NMS is ok, both amazing and abysmal changes have been made in the past year, and the amount of bug fixing introducing further issues is epic!
I like to play NMS when I'm in the mood for simple entertainment...

Oddly, I said I play NMS - around 300 hours so far, I may even think it is simple...
As for salty, hilarity more like it...

You don't have to bash NMS if in your opinion it is complex... mine is that it is simple, illustrated why I believe it is simple...

ETA: Your join date suggests the other thing you have been doing for years is play Elite: Dangerous.... (2016)

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Meaning of the word complex:
1. consisting of many different and connected parts.

2. a group or system of different things that are linked in a close or complicated way; a network.

Question, then: is Go a complex game?

It has one type of piece, which can make one type of move (appear and stay still) - this clearly does not meet the "different" part of either definition.

It also has one of the largest (perhaps the largest) numbers of gradations of ability between beginner and top player of any game (about 40) because the full implications of that type of piece and move are immensely difficult to understand

 

[House0fDerp]

Wow... I make a comment that I can shoot ships easily, you come back with "I've been doing that for years" (which of course beggars the question "what else") - and qualify by that comment alone it is simple, obviously...

Does it really beg that question? I don't actually see how. Maybe I mistook you as someone arguing ED was complex. If you agree with both game's simplicity then yes, I can see how that would seem non-topical. If, like Max, you argue ED is not simple while NMS is then arguments shared by the 2 don't apply and that observation is a direct relation. If that wasn't your stance hopefully that clears things up.

Me, I'm great thanks, worked hard enough to retire very early, having a ball... Playing games for entertainment, and visiting this forum in particular for its diverse and interesting userbase...

Congrats.

And, as usual, you failed to read my entire comment previously..

Oddly, I said I play NMS - around 300 hours so far, I may even think it is simple...
As for salty, hilarity more like it...

I feel like I'm missing something here. That or this is probably clarified by the above, wherein I think both games are simple to play and the similarities I pointed out are in support of that.

You don't have to bash NMS if in your opinion it is complex... mine is that it is simple, illustrated why I believe it is simple...

I'm not saying your opinion on NMS is wrong, I'm saying both games share the aspects you point out in support of the idea that they aren't really diverse in terms of complexity. Though that again might apply more to Max than you.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Does it really beg that question? I don't actually see how. Maybe I mistook you as someone arguing ED was complex. If you agree with both game's simplicity then yes, I can see how that would seem non-topical. If, like Max, you argue ED is not simple while NMS is then arguments shared by the 2 don't apply and that observation is a direct relation. If that wasn't your stance hopefully that clears things up.

...
I'm not saying your opinion on NMS is wrong, I'm saying both games share the aspects you point out in support of the idea that they aren't really diverse in terms of complexity. Though that again might apply more to Max than you.

About the only point I was making, and it doesn't appear to have been transparent, was that I consider NMS to be simple (at least now that Horizons took away the spreadsheet memory needed for cargo space!) to play as I was able to buy it and start playing it.
ED is harder to learn to control (I'm left-handed and couldn't easily remap the keyboard for sensible right handed use) when using a HOTAS for the first time... But (excluding the less transparent PP & BGS, something NMS has no comparison to be made) ED is simple enough to play too, which is why I also enjoy playing it. ED relies on imagination to really shine, in my opinion, in order to escape the normal gameplay loops.. (common to both games)

Again, as a personal observation, ED presents more of a challenge to me (in flight & fight) than NMS - others consider this to be simple - can you see the comparison I made a little more clearly now?

I wasn't piling on criticism, just providing my own observations. (I had to add the edit about 'years' because I posted and realised I'd forgotten)

 

[House0fDerp]

About the only point I was making, and it doesn't appear to have been transparent, was that I consider NMS to be simple (at least now that Horizons took away the spreadsheet memory needed for cargo space!) to play as I was able to buy it and start playing it.
ED is harder to learn to control (I'm left-handed and couldn't easily remap the keyboard for sensible right handed use) when using a HOTAS for the first time... But (excluding the less transparent PP & BGS, something NMS has no comparison to be made) ED is simple enough to play too, which is why I also enjoy playing it. ED relies on imagination to really shine, in my opinion, in order to escape the normal gameplay loops.. (common to both games)

Again, as a personal observation, ED presents more of a challenge to me (in flight & fight) than NMS - others consider this to be simple - can you see the comparison I made a little more clearly now?

I wasn't piling on criticism, just providing my own observations. (I had to add the edit about 'years' because I posted and realised I'd forgotten)

Ok, yeah, that may very well have been my misread. Thanks for the clarification. And yes, flight model is something I certainly understand your comparison.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Question, then: is Go a complex game?

It has one type of piece, which can make one type of move (appear and stay still) - this clearly does not meet the "different" part of either definition.

It also has one of the largest (perhaps the largest) numbers of gradations of ability between beginner and top player of any game (about 40) because the full implications of that type of piece and move are immensely difficult to understand

The game Go is a very simple game to learn, but can have complex strategies. It's a good game. I prefer chess though.