Is ED cursed? 'Cursed Problems in Game Design'

Frontier should hire better game designers. Such as the ones in charge of No Man's Sky, they do a 100 times better job at making the game fun.
I think we may have differing opinions of what makes a game "fun"
True, this is purely personal taste.
The fact is that NMS in 3 years received far more major contents than ED in 6 years and from a much smaller developer team.
When I think about Beyond, the last "big" update for ED (released in 2018) I mainly think about the FSS, Engineers v.2 and Material Traders. That's nothing compared to the major updates the Hello Games releases each year for NMS (completely free)

When there is a clear evidence that such things are possible, but not happening, one starts wondering if FDEV really care for ED or not.
 
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True, this is purely personal taste.
The fact is that NMS in 3 years received far more major contents than ED in 6 years and from a much smaller developer team.
When there is a clear evidence that such things are possible, but not happening, one starts wondering if FDEV really care for ED or not.
Easy to criticise FDev, isn't it?

Ideally ED should be left to die, it would make the 'community' much happier and probably Frontier too.

One only 'wonders if they care or not' when one is currently 'bored' with what the game offers - pretty much how I feel about NMS, the Living Ships content was a grind for something less than spectacular, and the lowering of fidelity in VR was a master stroke! - all a case of perspective, I suppose :)

If ED isn't engaging your interest, take a short break and come back when it attracts once more, it is exactly what I have been doing with NMS...
 
Edit: I also want to note that the segment near the begining of the OP's video about free-for-all politics, is exactly the sort of stuff I like in my 'world simulators', such as ED. I want my technical ability in combat (or whatever) to be one of many tools for achieving my character's goals in game, because this sort of thing is eminently plausible. However, I do agree that free-for-all politics is a problem in ED, because of how poorly FDev communicated their vision with their marketing material and actual gameplay.

This is the development plan that really got me interested in Elite: Dangerous:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM0Gcl7iUM8


The Alpha and Premium Beta gameplay I saw was enough to sell me on the game, which I then backed going into Beta 1.

Since then, few of the core mechanisms have improved, but many have been diluted. I blame many of the quick QoL fixes and heavy handed balance adjustments for this. Every time I notice a change, there is a good chance it was placed there to make things easier for the inept and lazy, at the expense of those who appreciate having to exercise skill.

Take, for example, the 3.6.x change where they doubled the scan range of the ship's datalink scanner. No doubt this is a minor change and one that was appreciated by many, but it's symptomatic of a general trend I find disturbing. Scanning surface beacons was meant to be done from SRVs...that's the only way they are even vaguely challenging. I wasn't thrilled with how this was implemented (too arbitrary, rather than having mechanisms in-place to make the SRV a rational choice), but at least they made it difficult to just take one's Anaconda in and scan beacons with total impunity. Sure you could use a ship like that, but you had to invert it and skim the ground to get the cockpit within the 50m required at the correct facing...which took some degree of piloting to do without risking crushing a skimmer (that shield and thruster reboot effect, while another example of a crappy and heavy handed mechanism to encourage SRV use, was at least semi-effective) or getting stuck on high-g worlds. Now that it's 90-100m any newbie in any ship can just faceplant the beacons, which means there one less reason to learn to fly, or to ever get out of that Anaconda.

Regarding new mechanisms and content, I appreciate some of it, but they've always felt bolted on and poorly integrated. However, I've never been eager for new content...rather, I feel starved for core content that works the way it's supposed to and is properly fleshed out.

Such as the ones in charge of No Man's Sky, they do a 100 times better job at making the game fun.

Didn't take much playing of NMS to figure out that the core gameplay I'm looking for in a first person fantasy spaceship simulator--namely being immersed in the control of a fantasy spaceship--was overly simplistic, unchallenging, and unrewarding. The cartoon level scale and lack of direct multiplayer interactions were also deal breakers.

Not saying NMS isn't considerably more fun for many people, but ED was never trying to be what NMS is, which is quite fortunate for those of us not enamored with NMS.

marketing a MP game to SP audience.

This is definitely a problem.
 
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For Elite Dangerous?

There's what I call "the fundamental problem of space games": space is really big and really empty, which is generally the opposite of what you want for gameplay, but if you start compressing things together to solve that then why bother setting it in space to start with?

Elite Dangerous specifically has made that even tougher by including persistent multiplayer and seamless planetary landings, which mean that some of the obvious fixes used elsewhere - time acceleration and cartoon scales - aren't usable.


On top of that you've got the fundamental problems of it being persistent global multiplayer - one difficulty level, one ruleset, no going back, absolute requirement for synchronisation between players for a lot of types of data. That sets off a whole lot of subproblems.


So, those problems are intrinsic to trying to make any game vaguely like Elite Dangerous. Persistent multiplayer + direct first-person control of spaceships + seamless planetary landings + free-form is a ridiculously difficult combination, which is why there are no other released games which have all of those components (and maybe two unreleased ones, both well overdue on their original release schedule)


Other problems which Elite Dangerous has, which it can't now fix because they're too embedded, but which aren't so fundamental that any similar game would inevitably struggle with them too? Lots of room for opinion on that, but I'd say:

* Too much focus on destinations rather than journeys. No travel speed can be fast enough as a result. Slower and more difficult travel with a focus on the journey being more interesting that the nominal excuse for the journey - with the consequent changes in design so that most things didn't need you to travel as far - would I think have been better.

* Too much spread in ship capabilities (and while engineering made this worse, it was a problem even with the small set of ships released in 1.0), combined with the exponential cost-performance curve, makes balancing anything impossible and means that even multirole builds often can't just drop what they're doing and look at something else of interest (which, see previous point about destinations rather than journeys).

* Too large and static a bubble. People are now so used to predictability and stability that deviations from this get criticised or reported as bugs. Similarly, there are far too many systems per active player. Might be possible to get out of in future but I wouldn't count on it. Somewhere in the 100-1000 size range with more frequent and disruptive changes would probably have been better.

* Exploration as a primary profession. (Not a mistake, just a source of much more problems) While the galaxy doesn't need to be real-sized for this, it probably does still need tens of millions of stars to satisfy exploration appetite for the long-term (and once you've got a way to make that many, you may as well go to the full 400 billion). This makes all the fundamental scale problems far far worse, as well adding balance difficulties versus other professions, and it's notable that both the two unreleased potential competitors are sticking to a very small number of systems at the moment.
 
Frontier should hire better game designers. Such as the ones in charge of No Man's Sky, they do a 100 times better job at making the game fun.
I think we may have differing opinions of what makes a game "fun"
True, this is purely personal taste.
The fact is that NMS in 3 years received far more major contents than ED in 6 years and from a much smaller developer team.
When I think about Beyond, the last "big" update for ED (released in 2018) I mainly think about the FSS, Engineers v.2 and Material Traders. That's nothing compared to the major updates the Hello Games releases each year for NMS (completely free)

When there is a clear evidence that such things are possible, but not happening, one starts wondering if FDEV really care for ED or not.
I totally agree with SenseiMatty, that whether you like NMS or not, Hello Games is kicking azz at the same development problems and Frontier currently, unequivocally is not!
If you compare the original Elite and First Contact to both NMS and Elite Dangerous, NMS is a better Elite than Elite Dangerous.
 
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For Elite Dangerous?

There's what I call "the fundamental problem of space games": space is really big and really empty, which is generally the opposite of what you want for gameplay, but if you start compressing things together to solve that then why bother setting it in space to start with?

Elite Dangerous specifically has made that even tougher by including persistent multiplayer and seamless planetary landings, which mean that some of the obvious fixes used elsewhere - time acceleration and cartoon scales - aren't usable.


On top of that you've got the fundamental problems of it being persistent global multiplayer - one difficulty level, one ruleset, no going back, absolute requirement for synchronisation between players for a lot of types of data. That sets off a whole lot of subproblems.


So, those problems are intrinsic to trying to make any game vaguely like Elite Dangerous. Persistent multiplayer + direct first-person control of spaceships + seamless planetary landings + free-form is a ridiculously difficult combination, which is why there are no other released games which have all of those components (and maybe two unreleased ones, both well overdue on their original release schedule)


Other problems which Elite Dangerous has, which it can't now fix because they're too embedded, but which aren't so fundamental that any similar game would inevitably struggle with them too? Lots of room for opinion on that, but I'd say:

* Too much focus on destinations rather than journeys. No travel speed can be fast enough as a result. Slower and more difficult travel with a focus on the journey being more interesting that the nominal excuse for the journey - with the consequent changes in design so that most things didn't need you to travel as far - would I think have been better.

* Too much spread in ship capabilities (and while engineering made this worse, it was a problem even with the small set of ships released in 1.0), combined with the exponential cost-performance curve, makes balancing anything impossible and means that even multirole builds often can't just drop what they're doing and look at something else of interest (which, see previous point about destinations rather than journeys).

* Too large and static a bubble. People are now so used to predictability and stability that deviations from this get criticised or reported as bugs. Similarly, there are far too many systems per active player. Might be possible to get out of in future but I wouldn't count on it. Somewhere in the 100-1000 size range with more frequent and disruptive changes would probably have been better.

* Exploration as a primary profession. (Not a mistake, just a source of much more problems) While the galaxy doesn't need to be real-sized for this, it probably does still need tens of millions of stars to satisfy exploration appetite for the long-term (and once you've got a way to make that many, you may as well go to the full 400 billion). This makes all the fundamental scale problems far far worse, as well adding balance difficulties versus other professions, and it's notable that both the two unreleased potential competitors are sticking to a very small number of systems at the moment.
Very good rundown of inherent problems. Ever since Frontier games I wondered what the point of so many stars are that you wouldn't ever visit. And those were single player games. And MP doesn't solve it - before it was 100 billion stars to 1 - today it's 400 billion to maybe three million. Still 133,333 per player. And most of it is empty anyway. And not more special than a thing just outside the bubble. It's 400 billion stars for the sake of it, but no real purpose to the game itself.
 
No that's not. I would much rather prefer to be in the situation where I pay for a billboard to say thank you FDEV for the good job!
But, as it stands today, you don't feel able to do so? How much time have you spent in ED compared to NMS?
So criticism, because you appear bored, is the way to go, I guess...

It is all personal perception, at the end of the day, I've never spent anywhere near as long playing other games (even Skyrim is probably only 3-400 hours against ED's 3,000+) as this one, so I'm still quite content with what I have in the game today as there is plenty to be getting on with.

From a personal standpoint, I'd never have donated to fund a billboard for HG, not after the dog's dinner they served up in Beyond... A good lesson in 'how to break a game' which inflamed their 'community' then and it hasn't calmed down too much since...
 
AWWWW!:cry:
ZYd6BfLh.jpg


Hopefully their profits, share options, dividends &/or salaries will ease the pain, somewhat!
Many are ready to suffer enormously to obtain this.

:D

------------------------------------------------------------------

😷
 
True, this is purely personal taste.
The fact is that NMS in 3 years received far more major contents than ED in 6 years and from a much smaller developer team.
When I think about Beyond, the last "big" update for ED (released in 2018) I mainly think about the FSS, Engineers v.2 and Material Traders. That's nothing compared to the major updates the Hello Games releases each year for NMS (completely free)

When there is a clear evidence that such things are possible, but not happening, one starts wondering if FDEV really care for ED or not.
Does it even matter? Since when is the amount of updates a measure for fun? According to your logic I can now install NMS again, open the save editor, get my story line reincarnated and uninstall ED.

I don't want to be chased by hamburgers with 8 legs on every planet, build staircases to clouds, talk to walking microwaves about stuffed parrots, press 'E' for landing, mine with a super soaker in order to be able to mine, no matter how many man hour they throw at that... thing.
 
Does it even matter? Since when is the amount of updates a measure for fun? According to your logic I can now install NMS again, open the save editor, get my story line reincarnated and uninstall ED.

I don't want to be chased by hamburgers with 8 legs on every planet, build staircases to clouds, talk to walking microwaves about stuffed parrots, press 'E' for landing, mine with a super soaker in order to be able to mine, no matter how many man hour they throw at that... thing.
But you can get a "Living Ship"! Grind for a week and get something even less impressive than an Asp Scout... C'mon, get grinding!!!!

As a game totally unlike ED, it is fine as long as one can ignore the bits that have been 'trimmed' to make a "one size fits all" game, and you can discover a whole new level of motion sickness in VR too :)

Any comparison between both games and their respective studios is a bit similar to comparing a Trabant to a BMW M5... they both have 4 wheels...
 
...

Any comparison between both games and their respective studios is a bit similar to comparing a Trabant to a BMW M5... they both have 4 wheels...

And a wind shield. Doors. Same propulsion principle. And window washers. There is seats in them! Steering mechanism seem to follow same basis. They can carry passengers. Speed indicators! Lights, too. Interior lights! Windows that can be raised and lowered. A gearbox. There's tyres on both of them I believe. I also found out that they both have some sort of body. An electric generator. Even batteries! My, I think there's a handbrake! What's with all these pedals on both, though? There are brakes, no idea why, though. Look how the times have changed, though: the radios look so different. A whole swath of indicator lights are on there. A hood. Suspension system. Axles. Fuel tank. Ignition system. Keylocks. There are mirrors (for the vain, I believe)
And... - hang on - someone is interrupting me.
.
.
.
So, I've just been told that I was describing a car, how strange.
 
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