Engineers Is "eficient weapon" too good in PvE?

[Genoscythe]

I have tried a great number of different builds now, I have all types of lasers in any size and ran long-range, focused (great to make smaller lasers deal 100% of their damage to large ships hulls), rapid fire and overcharged, all G5 and played on a whole lot of ships, from the imperial eagle to the anaconda.

But the modification that beats all of them is eficient weapon. There's literally nothing better on a large or huge hardpoint in PvE. You can shoot without interruption for hours, get no penalty at all, the best damage per energy rate and additionally to strongly increased damage you have reduced power draw. It's not a jack of all trades but the king of everything in my eyes, even if other modifications deliver more raw power, they will drain your distributor in seconds. Going eficient beams beats even overcharged pulse lasers (which create more heat but deal a bit more DPE and can't run the really good thermal vent) in almost every aspect, it still has the damage falloff that long-range weapon eliminates but what fight does normally happen over more than one 1km?

Now comes my question: Do you think this modification should stay like it is? Do you think it creates an easy-mode playstyle or do other, more situational modifications for lasers still have a point to exist? Mind that this topic strictly is about PvE-only. This does not only apply to Lasers, it also greatly upgrades PAs for example. So, is eficient weapon too good?

Share your thoughts!

 

[Maymo]

(At the risk of a nerf I’m going to be diplomatic)

I don’t think it’s too good, I just think some of the other mods are a little bit uninspired by comparison...

 

[Shir]

There are many occasions where other lasers or combinations are better. In some ships the capacitor can handle long range big lasers, or you combine them with multicannons etc. All efficient are fine, i use them often, but there are faster ways to finish npcs.

 

[Genoscythe]

There are many occasions where other lasers or combinations are better. In some ships the capacitor can handle long range big lasers, or you combine them with multicannons etc. All efficient are fine, i use them often, but there are faster ways to finish npcs.

This is not from a pure DPS-perspective, of course an OC multicannon will tear through a hull better with even less energy cost, but it needs ammo.

It's about the modification per se giving incredibly good bonuses without having any negative impact on a weapon, while other modifications give one or two up-sides while really impacting heat, weight or draw. I see a lot of players going corvette and 100% eficient beam lasers, which eliminates the need to re-stock on ammo and still killing everything. Same goes for Pythons, Condas and FDLs. There's no need to use ammo based weaponry, fixed weapons or rockets when you can just go all eficient and fire for an eternity for very decent DPS, so I heard and it's also my experience.

 

[Silaz]

I fitted efficient beams on my Corvette and it just seemed too easy to kill stuff.

But my preference is for long range G3, thermal vent. Means you can attack ships at a good distance.

On my Conda I use the lower large and huge hardpoints for these fixed beams.

 

[Kzak]

Two Huge Efficient G5 beams on a Corvette will boil most small and medium ships in a matter of seconds. It's a very good modification, yes, but too good? It doesn't change the falloff distance, for one thing, meaning that it won't be as much good in PvP for example. But in PvE, it's the go-to modification.

 

[Gamsir]

It depends on your setup.

I mostly fly a Vulture and my current setup is an overcharged MC with corrosive dmg and an overcharged beam with oversize.
My distributor is the meta chargeenhanced with cluster capaciters


I run with 3 pips to weapons in combat.

The thing is;

If my enemy is a smaller ship, I’ll use beam only to drop the shields.
The beam will fire almost continously until any smaller ship is killed of. I only use MC if I’m in a hurry or the ship is dangerous/elite.

When using both weapons simultaniously, the distributor is drained at the same time the MC needs to reload.
This gives the setup a pretty high burst dps.
When the MC is reloaded the distributor is full again also and the temperature is normal again also.
The higher base damage of overcharged in this setup also compensates for pilot error when I let my target get away from me out to ranges at obout 800-1000m when compared to efficient or long range setups.

Basically efficient is a (very) good engineering choice - a Jack of all trades option. But depending on your playstyle, weapon combination and distributor capacity, there’s more often than not a better option for engineering your weapons

 

[Herbrand]

It's too good even in PvP...

 

[Grisnir]

This is not from a pure DPS-perspective, of course an OC multicannon will tear through a hull better with even less energy cost, but it needs ammo.

It's about the modification per se giving incredibly good bonuses without having any negative impact on a weapon, while other modifications give one or two up-sides while really impacting heat, weight or draw. I see a lot of players going corvette and 100% eficient beam lasers, which eliminates the need to re-stock on ammo and still killing everything. Same goes for Pythons, Condas and FDLs. There's no need to use ammo based weaponry, fixed weapons or rockets when you can just go all eficient and fire for an eternity for very decent DPS, so I heard and it's also my experience.

there is simple no other mod that makes sense to put on the Beam Laser other than efficient,maybe long rang but that's it, DPS wise, G5 short range blaster C4 Cannons beat C4 Beam Laser by a mile, yes they need ammo, but by the time i run out of it a need to cash in bounty's anyway [big grin]

and for the burst and pulse is Long range much better than efficient

 

[biohazard15]

Efficient is the best if you have no problem with maintaining close distance to target. If your typical engagement range is more than about 1300m (typical for The Big 3), Long Range would suit you better than any other laser mod.

 

[Speedcuffs]

If you're in a fully engineered boat, with even slight skill...
Many weapons and mods seem op.

 

[Grisnir]

If you're in a fully engineered boat, with even slight skill...
Many weapons and mods seem op.

Can confirm, i tried short range g5 burst laser with inertial impact, i never saw a conda pop faster [big grin]

 

[Genoscythe]

Efficient is the best if you have no problem with maintaining close distance to target. If your typical engagement range is more than about 1300m (typical for The Big 3), Long Range would suit you better than any other laser mod.

Yeah but to engage a big three you need to fire for a long time. LR only makes sense if you can maintain the energy loss (My all-A all-g5 conda has its huge being a LR-beam but needs to go 3x OC MCs to compensate for the heavy draw) and if you fly halfway OK there's no problem in staying under 500m from the target and close in fast if you're over 600.

If you're in a fully engineered boat, with even slight skill...
Many weapons and mods seem op.

Hm, many mods sure can net you awesome results (OC H MCs anyone?), but this is not the point of this thread. Well, kinda. Because you exactly don't need any skill or tactics when using eficient.

Can confirm, i tried short range g5 burst laser with inertial impact, i never saw a conda pop faster [big grin]

Vipers actually become your worst enemy with those. My Chief now goes on conda like they were sidewinders, but damn, you better don't provoke the small fish or you'll spend the next three hours trying to hit them.

 

[ArchAngelofDeath]

Meh, Long range G5 with thermal vent on C4 beams. I don't need to "fire for days" because the huge beams melt all NPC ships in a matter of seconds. My distributor refills just fine with all enemies dead while I am collecting the mats from their destroyed hauls

 

[Nero Tacitus]

I think efficient's prowess is because it combats an inherent flaw in hardpoint balance; all 3 cannons are straight up far more efficient than lasers. They rely on ammo and have reload times to compensate, but still do basically the same job as a laser without nearly as much distro. Efficient needs to be a powerful mod so lasers can compete in a world where most CMDRs are happy to dock to cash bounties when their ammo runs dry, or else can just synth (which is even easier with the new traders).

It's even more obvious on PAs, where the hardpoint is straight up, unequivocally out-performed by fixed cannons in 99% of situations due to how overpower the OC mod is. If efficient were nerfed, OC would be even more ludicrous and no one outside PvP (and maybe even that demographic also) would consider PAs over cannons.

I think efficient is an incredibly powerful mod, and arguably the best 'all-rounder' for lasers, PAs and a few other hardpoints. It's a long distance before long range becomes better, it's a lack of corrosive and a massive hardness rating before focused is comparable. However, if FDev think about nerfing efficient, they'd need to rebalance half the stat mods in the game, or buff lasers'/PA's overall efficiency/DPS, to compensate. Personally, I wouldn't mind the latter. I love PAs, but man they're hard to justify over cannons. The highest theoretical DPS loadout I've designed for my 'Vette is 2xMedium/1xLarge PAs and 2xHuge fixed OC cannons; efficient PAs in the huge slots are a massive DPS/DPM loss.

 

[Genoscythe]

I think efficient's prowess is because it combats an inherent flaw in hardpoint balance; all 3 cannons are straight up far more efficient than lasers. They rely on ammo and have reload times to compensate, but still do basically the same job as a laser without nearly as much distro. Efficient needs to be a powerful mod so lasers can compete in a world where most CMDRs are happy to dock to cash bounties when their ammo runs dry, or else can just synth (which is even easier with the new traders).

It's even more obvious on PAs, where the hardpoint is straight up, unequivocally out-performed by fixed cannons in 99% of situations due to how overpower the OC mod is. If efficient were nerfed, OC would be even more ludicrous and no one outside PvP (and maybe even that demographic also) would consider PAs over cannons.

I think efficient is an incredibly powerful mod, and arguably the best 'all-rounder' for lasers, PAs and a few other hardpoints. It's a long distance before long range becomes better, it's a lack of corrosive and a massive hardness rating before focused is comparable. However, if FDev think about nerfing efficient, they'd need to rebalance half the stat mods in the game, or buff lasers'/PA's overall efficiency/DPS, to compensate. Personally, I wouldn't mind the latter. I love PAs, but man they're hard to justify over cannons. The highest theoretical DPS loadout I've designed for my 'Vette is 2xMedium/1xLarge PAs and 2xHuge fixed OC cannons; efficient PAs in the huge slots are a massive DPS/DPM loss.

I disagree on some points there. Cannons damage fail versus shields, and you will have quite an amount of your ammo before even having penetrated them due to their inherent very high kinetic resistance (40 or 50% it was). As you said, they need ammo. People hate having to refill every 20 minutes. You can live in a hazres with a python, FDL or bigger that only runs on eficient lasers without ever needing to repair or restock until your fuel gets low. Lasers can perfectly outperform cannons in many situations even without eficient by simply being hitscan, which is essential on some heavier ships if you try to hit somethign swift. Cannons are OP once the shields are down and you want to wreck a ship or PP-snipe it due to their high armor pen and single-shot damage.

PAs also have their place in the game, absolute damage ignores any resistances and directly deals damage, apart from that you can go for plasma slug = infinite ammo. I must say that I only run long-range PAs on Python or everything slower though because hitting smaller stuff becomes a chore. You can perfectly use 4 eficient PAs on an FDL though and ruin every ship around, cannons would not yield the same results I think.

I don't fly a vette but I have to to agree on your statement that huge cannons outperform huge PAs, because huge PAs are so damn ineficient and don't justify their draw, damage or range. PAs are generally good on the smaller slots, because they posess incredible armor penetration, absolute damage and really give smaller ships something to equal the playing field damage-wise, same for railguns. Of course PAs have a much higher git gud factor than simply running gimballed cannons, but the fact that you can make them run on fuel is incredible for APAs and PAs alike. I think they are designed for ships that can't converge on an enemy ship for too long and need all of their DPS to be availible in a high, concentrated burst. And it works at least on my Python where 2x M LR PAs outperform cannons.

But back to the eficient beams: I think cannons and lasers are too different to be compared, simply because of projectile/hitscan, ammo/energy and thermal/kinetic criteria. Cannons just serve as a completely different kind of weapon and cater a lot more special role than beams or lasers in general.

 

[Nero Tacitus]

I disagree on some points there..... in general.

I'll agree that long range projectile speed increase has a place, but I'll argue against PAs competing with cannons due to shield kinetic resistance and absolute damage.

Medium Fixed Cannon (OC5): 62 DMG, 0.46 p/s ROF, 6 Ammo, 3 sec Reload = 27.2 DPS
Medium PA (EF5): 67.3 DMG, 0.33 p/s ROF, 5 Ammo, 6 sec Reload = 18.6 DPS.

Vs Shields:
Cannon: 27.2 x 0.6 = 16.32 DPS
PA: (18.6x0.2)x1.2)) + (18.6x0.2)x0.6)) + (18.6x0.6) = 17.86 DPS

Vs Hull:
Cannon: 27.2 x 1.2 = 32.64 DPS
PA: (18.6x0.2) + (18.6x0.2)x1.2)) + (18.6x0.6) = 19.34 DPS

As OC cannons have such a massive base damage, the innate high resistance of shields to kinetic damage only brings them in line with PAs. Against hull, there's no competition. As PA's absolute damage portion is only 60%, even against heavily engineered shields PAs barely outperform OC cannons, for a much higher mounting power, distro draw and heat generation cost; not to mention costing the earth to restock. As for pierce value, I think it's fair to say a large number of ships run corrosive, which means the medium cannon's lower pierce rating (50) is irrelevant, even against 'Vette/FDL (the highest rating) they do full damage with the corrosive debuff.

Maybe there's a problem with my math (I'm quite tired atm), but I think it's reasonable to say that OC cannons are straight up better than PAs in terms of raw DPS alone, let alone drawbacks. That being said, I still use PAs because of TLB experimental, they're easier to aim due to their better tracer, different cannon sizes have different projectile speed (WTH FDev!?), oh, and PAs are badass as hell looking.

Also, gimballed cannons are joke. You'd have better DPS recruiting Stevie Wonder as a Crew Member.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Throw them engineered gear all in a bucket and draw one blindly. There is a good chance you are holding something too good in your hand.

 

[Chaparral]

Nope. Not too good. Damage falloff. Most players are jousting in PVE, so the creamy goodness of efficient lasers ends up being a burst on pass weapon.

I would like to see someone like Kornelius do an analysis of efficient vs. long range for HRES and HCZ kill rate.

 

[ArchAngelofDeath]

Analysis is great and I surely read the results but playing style/ability affects TIME ON TARGET which is a non-numerical factor when choosing weps that you should always consider.
For example fixed weps have better DPS. Yes, true, but if you suck at aiming them or are in a big whale sized ship trying to hit a wing of eagles guess what? Your DPS converted to DPM(M=minutes) will be worse than any stat chart shows.

I use a lot of gimbled weps on my big ships but also have some fixed PAs or Rails on board so when my opponent starts spamming chaffe I still have something worth firing.