Is Exploration too easy? Galactic center reached already before launch

[TankMaster]

The galactic core is an obvious point of interest. And by the post in the forum not easily reached. Because 1person made the 60hour effort to jump to an obvious point of interest by continuous jumping doesn't mean the exploration mechanic is broken.

This. Basically it is very different and time efficient to jump, scoop and jump again than to jump, scoop, scan, detail scan interesting planets/moons, which can be very very time consuming (i once found a system with 79 individual objects in it, a combination of asteroid belts and a whole lot of moons), if you just jump and ignore the object discovery and detail scan part then it will be a very fast business.

 

[knowles2]

i do agree that exploration is more than just going from A to B. also for me it is about watching sceneries and discovering things that are maybe hidden in the detail.

and still i expected such an endavour to take longer, be more difficult, and include more suprises.

if i understand you correctly you mean, kinda like the further you get the tougher the ships/enemies you meet are. sounds viable.

i would really like that once proposed mechanic of plotting your own ways and find hyperdrive routes. and with bad luck or bad navigation you would end up dead easily.
the next question is, how easy will it be to introduce new mechanics and wont it be kind of too late in 6months when so many interesting places are found already.

Frontiere are smart enough not to hide the true surprise where people will want to fly first. The true surprises will be hidden somewhere anonymous and that doesn't look that interested, where players won't be immediately drawn to like Moth to a flame. Frontiere knew new players would want to fly to the nebulas first, center of the galaxy as soon as possible, the chances of the surprises being there were pretty much zero.

The wear and tear mechanic which didn't make the cut to Gamma will probably be arriving early next year this will slow down exploration.

 

[Rubix]

Those people failed because they rushed to the core in Sidwewinders, Haulers and whatnot. A Cobra made it. A Python or an Anaconda are almost guaranteed to make it, since:

-they can pack the most supplies (autorepair charges, dual scoops etc.)
-they are impervious to pirate interdictions, which are mostly smaller ships
-they can have the longest ranges

Exploration as it is is not difficult, just time-consuming. That's not the same. There is no sense of epic achievement, not even on the level when someone solos a group boss in other games. You just need time and patience and you're guaranteed success. You do not need to plan beyond the next few jumps, you do not need to cooperate, and the hazards of deep space exploration are reduced to heat from the stars you're refueling at.

Your systems never degrade from general use, wear&tear only damages your paint job...

...looking back at what groups such as the First Great Expedition planned and expected exploration to be like, what we have now is not only easy, it is laughable. Where are the supply issues? Refueling problems? Maintenance? The need to form expedition fleets? To be organized? No need for any of that.

This is exactly the point i was making in my reply earlier on in this thread. there seems to be zero challenge other than patience. its not the epic exploration/expedition i expected. like i said, i took a keen interest in what the FGE was planning but its lost its lustre for me now.

 

[Alric]

The galactic core is an obvious point of interest. And by the post in the forum not easily reached. Because 1person made the 60hour effort to jump to an obvious point of interest by continuous jumping doesn't mean the exploration mechanic is broken.

The fact that you can jump in a basic ship with easily obtained gear and continuous jump that far does mean long distance travel is pretty weak though.
It's like any of the epic journeys to remote parts of the world throughout history actually amounting to just walk from a to b, eat, rest, repeat.. like there was no more planning, preparation and unpredictability in it than that. Travelling 1000 miles in to the unknown should not be like travelling 1 mile in the local woods a thousand times.
Not to take anything away from Zion, who played the game as it is fair enough. But I think the mechanic is massively lacking right now.. extreme distance travelling should have a whole raft of challenges to go with it.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

I think it's fantastic. Quite a feat. Seeing those screenshots of the centre of the galaxy, out of the cracked and creaking window of a beaten-up Cobra... awesome.

Will that ship hold together for long enough to bring the data back? Or will it be lost in the depths?

 

[Memnoch]

...looking back at what groups such as the First Great Expedition planned and expected exploration to be like, what we have now is not only easy, it is laughable. Where are the supply issues? Refueling problems? Maintenance? The need to form expedition fleets? To be organized? No need for any of that.

True but most of that was coming from the group and their imaginations running riot, thinking of what it would be like. That's not a bad thing at all, its great that people invested that much time into it. They just never considered that it would be as "easy" as this, no disrespect to the OP intended of course.

There were thoughts of equipment continually breaking down and needing to be serviced, refuelling teams shuttling back and forth etc. although for that last one I would have thought the existence of fuel scoops would have put paid to that one. Although to be fair there is still this idea of scooped fuel not being as clean as store bought stuff and this would, over time, add to the wear and tear of the ships engines.

None of this is in the game...yet.

 

[Alric]

None of this is in the game...yet.

This is one area that potentially illustrates how things get a bit sticky after launch.
So far we've been in beta.. we're just testing.. ok.
Now it's gamma.. there's gonna be a wipe.. ok.
Launch comes. This is it now. What happens from now on is the story of the game, no going back.
So people put in time and effort, get nice ships and equipment and take off in to the great unknown.
They're out there far from home with just what they could take with them when they took off.

Then you add in wear and tear.

How does that work? Even if you add in modules to help deal with it, people are already out there. They can't buy them and potentially they're now stranded with no way to survive simply because the stuff they needed did not exist when they set out.

It's easy to add new content, new stuff to do in to a live game.. but it's much more tricky messing with things that people are already in the middle of.

 

[Corbin Moran]

Exploration as it is is not difficult, just time-consuming. That's not the same. There is no sense of epic achievement, not even on the level when someone solos a group boss in other games. You just need time and patience and you're guaranteed success. You do not need to plan beyond the next few jumps, you do not need to cooperate, and the hazards of deep space exploration are reduced to heat from the stars you're refueling at.

Your systems never degrade from general use, wear&tear only damages your paint job...

...looking back at what groups such as the First Great Expedition planned and expected exploration to be like, what we have now is not only easy, it is laughable. Where are the supply issues? Refueling problems? Maintenance? The need to form expedition fleets? To be organized? No need for any of that.

This is so true! There is currently NO incentive in the game systems for a group of explorers to cooperate.

 

[Arkantes]

Hyperspace discovery was supposed to prevent that from happening tot quickly and to make reaching the core quite a challenge. But without it...

 

[Memnoch]

So people put in time and effort, get nice ships and equipment and take off in to the great unknown.
They're out there far from home with just what they could take with them when they took off.

How does that work? Even if you add in modules to help deal with it, people are already out there. They can't buy them and potentially they're now stranded with no way to survive simply because the stuff they needed did not exist when they set out.

True, although it is worth mentioning that a part of exploration is selling the useful data and that means travelling back to habitable space. I'm not saying that is a requirement of exploration, you could just be travelling to take in the sites. But it is a valid reason and every time you go out there it's a gamble, and the longer you are out there there is the continuous possibility you are going to end up in an encounter you cannot survive and end up losing everything and appearing back at the station you last docked at.

 

[Corbin Moran]

What happens from now on is the story of the game, no going back.
So people put in time and effort, get nice ships and equipment and take off in to the great unknown.
They're out there far from home with just what they could take with them when they took off.

Then you add in wear and tear.

How does that work? Even if you add in modules to help deal with it, people are already out there. They can't buy them and potentially they're now stranded with no way to survive simply because the stuff they needed did not exist when they set out.

It's easy to add new content, new stuff to do in to a live game.. but it's much more tricky messing with things that people are already in the middle of.

Sigh - I never thought I would be saying this... But I would actually prefer that Frontier reinstate some kind of "bubble" or remove all hyperspace routes outside a certain area for the time being. Since the long range exploration mechanics simply arent good enough and sufficiently fleshed out at this time, I would prefer that they keep LOTS of the galaxy sealed off at game launch. Just like planetary landings areant implemented yet because they want the quality of the experience to be sufficiently high, I would like to see exploration of much of the galaxy limited in the same way.

 

[SilentEagle]

This is one area that potentially illustrates how things get a bit sticky after launch.
So far we've been in beta.. we're just testing.. ok.
Now it's gamma.. there's gonna be a wipe.. ok.
Launch comes. This is it now. What happens from now on is the story of the game, no going back.
So people put in time and effort, get nice ships and equipment and take off in to the great unknown.
They're out there far from home with just what they could take with them when they took off.

Then you add in wear and tear.

How does that work? Even if you add in modules to help deal with it, people are already out there. They can't buy them and potentially they're now stranded with no way to survive simply because the stuff they needed did not exist when they set out.

It's easy to add new content, new stuff to do in to a live game.. but it's much more tricky messing with things that people are already in the middle of.

This is what I have worried about since Gamma launched. After release the majority of those DDA features can never be added, especially hyperspace route discovery, unless FD are willing to continuously wipe saves. It is too bad, because I was really looking forward to exploration being a progression, where players slowly expanded known space to reach farther and farther away from Sol. One person alone in a cobra just shouldn't be able to make that trip through patience and a little luck.

 

[Kernel Kwatz!]

I'm wondering if this has caught Frontier by surprise? That one of the most obvious galactic destinations was reached so quickly certainly surprised me. Maybe the galaxy isn't big enough after all

This actually reinforces my perception that ED currently has 400 billion channels and yet there almost is nothing on.

 

[Oppenheimer]

Hyperspace discovery was supposed to prevent that from happening tot quickly and to make reaching the core quite a challenge. But without it... With most of the mechanics missing the so called exploring is exactly the same as flying around explored space except some of the people doing it have very active imaginations. I think at the moment this is the biggest issue, a lot of people were expecting the gameplay mechanics described in the DDF so they did not come in with their IMAGINATION turned on. If you use your imagination it is really great! -Still the unimplemented mechanics would not go amiss making it a teeny tinsy bit challenging.	Players can use scanning equipment and probes to detect systems and record new hyperspace routes Scanners are used to detect any nearby systems that are within the players jump range Scanners will give the player a vague indication of the direction of a system High end scanners can give the player a better details of the system they have detected (is it a star, an asteroid field etc.) Players can then launch hyperspace probes that will give the player more information on the part of space they are looking at Probes will give the player heat-map style data to help guide the player to the correct co-ordinates for a jump Different probe ammo can provide different information, or react based on objects in the target system Using the data they have gathered the player must align their ship as best they can with the target system and activate the hyperdrive to jump to the system The player’s ship records data of any successful jumps the player makes The pilots federation will always pay players for the first successful jump they make using the exploration method (If the player bought the map data for the jump they cannot sell the data), even if the player is not the first person ever to make the jump (the pilots federation use the data to improve their telemetry and keep maps up to date) If the player is the first person to ever make the journey they receive a bonus for discovering the hyperspace route The closer the player lines up their jump to the target system, the higher quality the data the players ship will gather on the jump. Higher quality data is worth more money when sold to authorities If a player’s jump is not accurate enough they may suffer a miss jump Longer distance jumps require a higher level of accuracy A systems contents may also affect how accurate a players jump must be to avoid mis-jumping

 

[Dirtmuncher]

Well he did spend 60 hours doing it.
Maybe the upper limit of jump distance should come down or require more fuel.
On the one side you want players flying through the galaxy on the other hand meaningful exploration.
Maybe time to start including wormholes to get the little man to jump around habitted space more.

 

[Arkantes]

With most of the mechanics missing the so called exploring is exactly the same as flying around explored space except some of the people doing it have very active imaginations.
I think at the moment this is the biggest issue, a lot of people were expecting the gameplay mechanics described in the DDF so they did not come in with their IMAGINATION turned on.
If you use your imagination it is really great!
-Still the unimplemented mechanics would not go amiss making it a teeny tinsy bit challenging.

Well, I'm not Hook's Peter Pan, so if a feature is not there I'm not going to pretend it is. How should I even do that in this case, roll a dice until it tells me I'm allowed to jump?

 

[Trancepilot]

I would have at least expected getting that close to a black hole, for any ship to be caught in some sort of gravitational field where he /she could not escape ending with the ship being destroyed. Black holes seem kind of disappointing. There is no danger to getting close to one. I hope that this is something that changes.

 

[Hellhawk666]

There's two aspects to this, of course. The ease of almost unlimited travel, and the ease of the actual exploration mechanics.

Zulu Romeo's successful voyage to Sagittarius A* is fantastic, but the scenario which allowed it is counter to the originally stated game design parameters that included wear and tear that could only be repaired at starports. Not wear and tear through interdictions, combat or overheating, but just plain mechanical failure over time, based on distance travelled. Exploration was clearly articulated by both David Braben and Michael Brooks as one in which deep space activity would only be possible for a group working in cooperation. They have not provided the mechanics to support that, and it's now just all too easy.

What the game seriously needs is a limitation based on wear, that includes a gradually increasing chance of ship hull and engine failure over time. Personally I'd like to see the practical distance between full servicing as 2,000LY, with catastrophic failure practically guaranteed at 10,000LY.

The second aspect, the process of scanning itself, has been simplified from the original design and has lost some of its early promise. It's an "OK" system at best, but not much more. Scanning desperately needs some sort of skill component to make it really interesting, but not so much that it becomes tedious.

 

[Gibbonici]

...looking back at what groups such as the First Great Expedition planned and expected exploration to be like, what we have now is not only easy, it is laughable. Where are the supply issues? Refueling problems? Maintenance? The need to form expedition fleets? To be organized? No need for any of that.

The First Great Expedition is still going to happen (Zulu Romeo's trip to the core was as much a test of wear and tear mechanics for it as much as anything else). But yeah the "lighter" feature set for exploration does make things a lot simpler than we were hoping, and 90% of our DDA-based plans are basically redundant unless/until more of it gets implemented.

In some ways it's disappointing and we are definitely looking forward to more complexity, but in the meantime we now know that we can go further than just the core and still take in a lot more places along the way.

Even though the core has already been cracked, I know from numerous TS exchanges with Zulu that it was far from easy. Aside from the server issues and the ongoing headache of navigating through generically names sector systems, the sheer endurance it took for him to make it all that way in such a short time was pretty gruelling. SPACE MADNESS (all caps) is definitely a thing

That kind of rush is not really a practical way to explore though, and I think anyone who's covered a few thousand LYs over the past week or so will agree that system hopping can be a mentally punishing activity - which is exactly as it should be. In fact, one thing that the FGE has learnt in gamma is that the idea of having supply lines over such vast distances is pretty much impossible. Once you're a few thousand LYs out, that's it, you're on your own. Because of that, the stakes are so much higher because we'll be carrying all that exploration data with us all the way out and all the way back. You really, really don't want to die And that's a challenge we hadn't anticipated even with the simplified mechanics.

Hopefully FD will get Universal Cartographics into a state that can handle selling thousands of systems worth of data by then. I'm currently carrying about 300 systems worth and UC crashes my client, even with the 20 system cap.

 

[Gibbonici]

What the game seriously needs is a limitation based on wear, that includes a gradually increasing chance of ship hull and engine failure over time. Personally I'd like to see the practical distance between full servicing as 2,000LY, with catastrophic failure practically guaranteed at 10,000LY.

Yeah, that would be good. Having some mechanism to jury-rig running repairs would be good too, so that you can partly service modules with an unpredictable chance of failure and therefore delay.

But for true cooperative exploration, being able to fit out a ship as a maintenance vessel would be great. Maybe modules that deploy one use repair and servicing drones which have to be built in a separate module out of specific mined resources. Having a chain of activities through a series of modules, potentially on different ships for efficiency, is definitely a good way to go to encourage cooperative exploration.

Heh, given the amount of thought we've put into the Expedition since April, and the fact that we actively want it to be as challenging as possible, maybe FD should consult with us on how to make this stuff work