is frontier being too clever for their own good

To play devil's advocate here (at great personal risk!) are ELITE/FRONTIER really deeper than the X series? I'd say there's maybe less going on gameplay-wise.

Isn't it more about the believability of the universe in ELITE and FRONTIER? It's got a depth of immersion, a sense of really being there, but that's maybe more about graphics than gameplay. I'm not sure the actual game bits (shooting at things, deciding which cargo to buy) are all that sophisticated really.

The thing with Frontier though is it was written for 16 bit machines with limited scope... so yes maybe game play-wise it may have been limited in some respects - but it still set a bench mark that I personally thought other games would follow. To me its realism depth should have been the foundation that all games of its genre that followed should have been built on. I guess that's where my disappointment came from - I expected the new games developers and the technologies they'd use would look at Frontier and First Encounters, pick up the realism baton, and take it from there.

When Eve Online came out in 2003 I remember going into my local games store, seeing the DVD on the shelf, reading the blurb on the back and thinking, great! This is an online version of Frontier!

How disappointed was I when I learned the galaxy was tiny, the background environment static and just canvass back drops, planets weren't real (you could even warp through them !), and the sense of adventure non-existent within a week. Granted it had a lot of other cool stuff going for it, but it just didn't have that 'wow' factor that Frontier had 10 years earlier. And this from the CCP guys who quoted Elite and Frontier as being their inspiration for developing Eve!

Braben laid the foundations for realism but no one else built on them. They went for the lowest common denominator in my book - which was all show and little substance.
 
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Braben laid the foundations for realism but no one else built on them.

As a counterbalance to this he may have made a rod for his own back.

Elite (classic) was basically boxes in space - Frontier was free roaming - The initial design for ED was boxes in space as well. The DDF kicked off royal about that which I suspect is slowing down production .. we wanted free roaming play style which (in a MP setting) I guess is quite hard to do.

It could explain why no one else has done it yet.
 
* /me reaches for the non-oik switch. *

CLICK!

What was that? Did someone say something? :p

yeah, Braben said something which I quoted and agree on.
Multiplayer combat is "deeper than fighting robots".
Now bring on the deeper rewards for my deep pockets, FD. :cool:
 
As a counterbalance to this he may have made a rod for his own back.

Elite (classic) was basically boxes in space - Frontier was free roaming - The initial design for ED was boxes in space as well. The DDF kicked off royal about that which I suspect is slowing down production .. we wanted free roaming play style which (in a MP setting) I guess is quite hard to do.

It could explain why no one else has done it yet.

Classic Elite wasn't boxes in space, in system jumpdrive was free roaming as well but, with only a single planet and a space station.

The problem is that a free roaming in system jumpdrive in ED will complicate MP prediction but I think is solvable with some clever spatial partitioning, it also makes it harder for random people to meet each other, which I can live with since space is supposed to be big anyway.
 
Classic Elite wasn't boxes in space, in system jumpdrive was free roaming as well but, with only a single planet and a space station.

I believe you are not quite right.

Each system was a box .. endless/edgeless, but a box nonetheless. Yes, you could J key it about the place but it was impossible to use it to get to the next system .. you were essentially bound in a box at a random coordinate with (I presume) the space station at (0,0,0). I tried once to escape this box and flew for a very long time in one direction .. the space station & sun shrank to mere dots but I didn't manage to get free! :eek:

Contrast that to Frontier .. you could move freely from one star system to another - no hyperspace - no cut scenes (and thus no boxes in space)

ED was going to be boxes in space.

That is what I meant.
 
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I tried once to escape this box and flew for a very long time in one direction .. the space station & sun shrank to mere dots but I didn't manage to get free!.
Ah yes... I wonder how many of us tried that. I've even heard of people who left their machine/game running all night.
 
Ah yes... I wonder how many of us tried that. I've even heard of people who left their machine/game running all night.

Freeeeeddddddoooooommmmmmmm!

At any rate - massive undertaking that if they solve ... Kudos to them if they do and sales ahoy as it would be a major selling point.
 
sorry but Frontier (Elite II and FFE) were still boxes.
If you mis-jumped and found you now had 400t of scrap metal where your engine was, it didn't matter what you did ... even ejecting, getting up to full speed and sticking the stardreamer on full balst for days ... you were stuck ... Game Over.
 
sorry but Frontier (Elite II and FFE) were still boxes.
If you mis-jumped and found you now had 400t of scrap metal where your engine was, it didn't matter what you did ... even ejecting, getting up to full speed and sticking the stardreamer on full balst for days ... you were stuck ... Game Over.

Is that the same thing though ? (A misjump I mean)

Could you go from the surface of Earth and fly (using star dreamer) all the way to Alpha Centuri without hyper spacing ? Could you do that in 1 take ?

Elite - no (boxes for sure)
Frontier - I am sure wifey was saying you could (which implies no boxes)

Misjumps .. surely that was a bug when your engine was replaced by scrap ? (it was terrible at release I am told)
 
Could you go from the surface of Earth and fly (using star dreamer) all the way to Alpha Centuri without hyper spacing ? Could you do that in 1 take ?
No, you couldn't ... the mis-jump was an example as to why you'd have the stardreamer on full blast for days

and did you ever try to land at Alpha Centari? I tried ... and didn't land (didn't even get there!)
 
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I believe you are not quite right.

Each system was a box .. endless/edgeless, but a box nonetheless. Yes, you could J key it about the place but it was impossible to use it to get to the next system .. you were essentially bound in a box at a random coordinate with (I presume) the space station at (0,0,0). I tried once to escape this box and flew for a very long time in one direction .. the space station & sun shrank to mere dots but I didn't manage to get free! :eek:

Contrast that to Frontier .. you could move freely from one star system to another - no hyperspace - no cut scenes (and thus no boxes in space)

ED was going to be boxes in space.

That is what I meant.


That's not true, FE2 and FFE star systems were spheres, you couldn't seamlesly travel to another star system, believe me I tried, you would hit an invisible edge if you went far enough where you would just sit there circling at the edge of a star system.
 
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No, you couldn't ... the mis-jump was an example as to why you'd have the stardreamer on full blast for days
That's not true, FE2 and FFE star systems were also boxes or maybe spheres, you couldn't seamlesly travel to another star system, believe me I tried, IIRC you would just sit there circling at the end of a star system.
Then 2 things ..

(a) I must have misunderstood my wife, which means
(b) I am talking out my rear :eek:

Please ignore previous posts about boxes in space - I was obviously wrong.
 
The realism I was talking about was the galactic mechanics. The fact that he modeled the milky way galaxy (to the best of his knowledge) and planets had realistic orbital movement. You could land on the surface of Titan and watch Saturn set over the horizon - that sort of stuff.

By the way I'm so glad the DDF convinced FD to ditch the boxes in space stuff. Free roaming play may be harder to implement in MP but it'll be so worth in imho :cool:
 
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In Elite, I used to fly to the other side of the star quite a lot, just to see if I'd find anything, like a generation ship!
Never did tho....

Actually, that's one of the things I loved about Elite - the sense of not knowing.
 
By the way I'm so glad the DDF convinced FD to ditch the boxes in space stuff. Free roaming play may be harder to implement in MP but it'll be so worth in imho :cool:

Nothing set in stone yet .. FD took on board our comments and were going to get back to us. Having a poor memory they may well have done that already but I don't remember reading anything about it.
 
Having the box is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as it's big enough.

And remember it's connected to 399,999,999,999 others, although you'll have to figure out how to get to most of them.
 
Just to be clear.

The only thing seamless and free roaming about FE2 and FFE was the interplanetary in-system travel including atmospheric transitions and landing on planets, which is already way more than most other space games allow.

What ED will add is seamless interstellar hyperspace but that won't be free-roam.

The ED seamless in-system travel is the thing that the DDF was concerned about and it looks like they are gonna find a way to make it work, from what I understand form the LaveCon Q&A

http://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/1i9k4t/lave_radio_ep_12_lavecon_2013_qa_panels_with
Mr Brookes talks about it at around 17:30
 
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