Is it possible for big ships to beat small ships in PvP?

[Vedmo]

Why would you fly a Courier tho?

The cockpit view alone! It just has a feeling to it I get from no other ship as well, like I'm strapped into a cockpit that is attached to a rocket with a few weapons tied on as well.

I have one built for small bug hunting, one to play around in has rez, and then my personal favorite, the exploration Courier that jumps over 40 and boosts over 800 with an SRV Bay and decent shields to boot!

 

[Simplystyc]

The cockpit view alone! It just has a feeling to it I get from no other ship as well, like I'm strapped into a cockpit that is attached to a rocket with a few weapons tied on as well.

I have one built for small bug hunting, one to play around in has rez, and then my personal favorite, the exploration Courier that jumps over 40 and boosts over 800 with an SRV Bay and decent shields to boot!

I approve of the Tank in your Profile Pic.

Those MK IV's are underrated.

 

[Grinningghillie]

If the small guy sticks around, it'll inevitably get beaten.

Depends on the flying skills and proper build of the large Ship though - although same could be said about the speedboat driver.
Make a few classic mistakes and both can vanish rather quickly.

So what's a proper large ship build?

 

[Deleted member 38366]

So what's a proper large ship build?

Like.... i.e. one with an Engineered 7A Shield instead of of a lightweight 5D Shield. One that isn't an all-Turret build. One that carries a sensible Weapon loadout and proper Defenses & Utility placement. With sensible Shield and Hull/Armour Resistance considerations.
Basically stuff that avoids ending up being considered a "Rookie build".

 

[Grinningghillie]

Like.... i.e. one with an Engineered 7A Shield instead of of a lightweight 5D Shield. One that isn't an all-Turret build. One that carries a sensible Weapon loadout and proper Defenses & Utility placement. With sensible Shield and Hull/Armour Resistance considerations.
Basically stuff that avoids ending up being considered a "Rookie build".

I'm a rookie looking to build smarter (I already have the specifics you listed, but I dont know what "sensible weapon loadout," "proper defenses/utility placement" or "sensible shield/hull/armor considerations" mean. Where should I look for info?

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

For a PvP spec large, a lone courier shouldn’t be a problem.

Of course, if they really don’t want to die, there’s not much you can do to catch them.

Edit to add: Long range hitscan weapons Like rails/lasers are pretty great for poking small fast targets.

 

[Simplystyc]

I'm a rookie looking to build smarter (I already have the specifics you listed, but I dont know what "sensible weapon loadout," "proper defenses/utility placement" or "sensible shield/hull/armor considerations" mean. Where should I look for info?

You don't want turrets if you are trying to PvP.

Most PvP pilots run single, if not double chaff. Run Dispersal field plasma or cannons as well. Plus Turrets do such abysmal DPS that they render a Large ship basically useless in PvP.

Decent for PvE though if you want to farm.

 

[photomankc]

Like.... i.e. one with an Engineered 7A Shield instead of of a lightweight 5D Shield. One that isn't an all-Turret build. One that carries a sensible Weapon loadout and proper Defenses & Utility placement. With sensible Shield and Hull/Armour Resistance considerations.
Basically stuff that avoids ending up being considered a "Rookie build".

To beat or to survive till it's not fun? Played a bit sparring with a iCourier using reverbs/rails. The little sucker was all but un-hittable. His shields went down easy but came back fast so very short window to get any damage in and getting hits on his hull was FREAKING HARD. Got him once with rails to the PP and some other lucky hit moments but I was in a Krait. Doing that in one of those fat-bottomed girls like the big three would be even less fun. Add a couple Vultures and some quality sniping from the gnats on the FSD, Drives and you're going to feel sort of like a whale trying to kill a flea.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

I'm a rookie looking to build smarter (I already have the specifics you listed, but I dont know what "sensible weapon loadout," "proper defenses/utility placement" or "sensible shield/hull/armor considerations" mean. Where should I look for info?

IMHO it's not really feasible to give a specific build for large Ships to another (especially a new) Player, since personal flying/fighting style and personal preferences vary way too much.
Plus, if you ask 10 people you might easily get 10 different recommended builds.

It's best to experiment with various builds yourself and determine what's best for you. If PvP is your goal, nothing can replace that mandatory experience of Basic/Advanced Ship Handling that'll define your combat style, Pips Management and post-Shield (= Shields gone) Combat Management.

Defenses/Utility placement mean to i.e. carefully position i.e. a Point Defense where your personal fighting style requires it to be.
A PD on the wrong Utility slot of a Large Ship is useless if it doesn't face the threat most of the time due to your flying for example.
Depending on your Combat plans, you'll have to decide to carry Chaff, ECM, Heat Sink and PD vs. how many Shield Boosters your Ship needs both for optimal Shield Strength and Resistances (Thermal/Kinetic/Explosive).

Those Resistances are critical as well when it comes to Engineering Hull/Armour and will decide how many HRPs and which Engineering Blueprints/Special Effects you'll apply to attain maximum possible Hull protection for your Ship and how much Module Protection you desire. A build taking those considerations into account I call "sensible".

(all under the assumption that you got full Grade 5 Access to all relevant Engineers)

To look things up, I guess the best bet would be to have a deep look at the whole Engineering process, which drastically defines the effectiveness and role of specific Ship builds.
That one isn't explained in a few lines and can be a bit tricky.
One of the best 3rd Party tools to "theorycraft" Engineered Ships of all types is https://coriolis.io/ .
IMHO an exceedingly powerful tool to create a desired Ship build while keeping all Engineering Details (and its effects on the Ship) in one simple Page.
Good stuff and well worth spending alot of time with before Equipping a Ship and taking it to the Engineering round-robin.
Any mistakes or omissions would cost precious Materials and additional/re-engineering after all, so having the Ship "Mission ready" on paper with all specific Details is extremely helpful.

 

[Vandaahl]

To me anything without cargo space was pretty useless unless it was combat ship.

Mine only has an engineered wake scanner, zipping with 800 m/s from high wake to high wake like a boss

 

[Northpin]

Basically the title- I'm curious as to how big ship commanders deal with a specific type of small ship opponent in the current meta.

Let me explain. A friend and I have been messing around with putting a Fed Corvette up against an Imp courier. The courior is engineered to be crazy fast (around 800 speed) with solid shields (600, with about fifty percent resistance to everything). Using resonating cascade, the courior can disable then destroy the corvette if it gets favorable positioning at the start of the fight.

Conversely, the corvette seems completely incapable of ever killing the courior- with the courier's speed, we have yet to come up with a setup that allows the corvette to burst down the courior before if can boost away.

Thus, the courior never dies, always can dictate if a battle will happen, and will eventually get the right circumstances to take the vette down.

Is there any counter to this sort of strategy or is that simply the meta?

(Note, I'm not complaining, purely curious. A small ship should definitely be able to beat a big ship with the right setup- I just don't see ANY setup that can beat this sort of small ship build)

This might do.

It won't die to the Courier (or other small ship) and it might even have a chance at killing it if the courier pilot gets unlucky or stupid

 

[Ian Doncaster]

With the weak hull on a high-speed courier, fitting long range fixed phasing pulse lasers to every hardpoint should give it a pretty bad time long before it can eat through several thousand points of hull with its one remaining hardpoint that wasn't a torpedo launcher, if neither ship is allowed to flee.

But realistically, neither can seriously harm the other - the courier can just boost away, and the corvette can just low-wake, and every other result will take hours in full combat builds if no-one messes up badly.

 

[Northpin]

before it can eat through several thousand points of hull with its one remaining hardpoint that wasn't a torpedo launcher

If the vette fits a thermal shield, the courier won't have enough torps to drop the shields

 

[Mr.ziPPeR]

A good tactic would to let them come to you and not chase them. When they are 1.5 or 2kms and closing in, boost toward them and ram the heck out of their tiny ships. Then release the hounds when they are spinning after the ramming !

 

[Rubbernuke]

Depends on your concept of winning really. Sometimes making people run away is a win- in ED outright destruction is rare unless you have overwhelming firepower and have your opponent pinned.

I've seen shieldless Sidewinders make unwary Cutter pilots high wake through a mix of skill, outfitting and sheer balls.

 

[nosleepdemon]

You can't kill the Courier but you know you can just wake, right?

 

[Madrax573]

Wouldn't just a couple of phase lasers melt the paper hull of a fast courier anyways?

And a courier has a very hard job of keeping a vette in a fight as it can just leave... so if you die to a courier then you made the choice to...

 

[Airtroops83]

a courier?
yeah no.
I can see cacade torps dropping the shield but if the courier can actually take down the vettes massive hp pool, with even only 2 or 3 hrps, with... a single medium hardpoint..
before the vette completely annihilates its tiny healthpool (because its a lightweight build) with its massive firepower... or even just... jumps away...

yeah no. I dont see the courier EVER winning unless the vette pilot has no shields or hull reinforments at all. even then, all he has to do is... jump.

Heres your best case courier.

https://s.orbis.zone/5l8k

You need 4 torps to take down that shield semi-reliabley, (pray he doesn't have any point defense turrets) then you're gunna have to single rail down the powerplant.
with about 500 eHP.
all before he jumps.

If you can do it against your average player controlled vette with even a somewhat below average pilot I'll release halflife 3.

 

[Mr.ziPPeR]

Your best bet is cascade mines and the Corvette pilot isn't aware of his environment and flies into them.
Single railing the FSD is of course doable (did that a couple times in my bomber courier) you just gotta be lucky with a couple FSD malfunctions while you get through the MRP if he equipped one. When FSD is toast, the Corvette CMDR is dead in the water.

That's a lot of «ifs» but it can work.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Why would you fly a Courier tho?

Because it's fun while retaining utility. Mine is used as a light combat/USS prospector/courier mission runner/bubble taxi.

My Courier boosts to 810m/s (max cruise speed about 600m/s), has ~350 shield with decent resistances all round (I focused on quick recovery rather than max hit points, as I can easily remove myself from any threats until shields come back up), close to 700 hull, a collector limpet controller to pick up mats, jumps between 32 and 38LY (depending on fuel/cargo), and looks great (more so with the ship kit). 3 medium fixed MCs pack a reasonable punch all things considered. Oh and a SC assist for easy commuting between USS's.

I recently made a Prismo Cutter leave Farseer's base because they couldn't drop my shields (I either stayed out of their line of fire or out paced their missiles) and I must've become just annoying enough to make them stop clubbing seals there. I count that as a solid win despite barely making a dent in their OP'd shield tank.