General / Off-Topic Is it wrong to just drop everything and pursue a life of blissful isolation?

[rootsrat]

[Mod hat on]

May I just remind everyone that discussing politics is against the forum rules

This thread will be closed if the discussion continues in the current manner.

Thanks.

 

[jasonbarron]

None of them were communists they were all murderous dictators who used communist propaganda to gain popular support to set themselves up. The biggest problem with communism is that people simply don't measure up to it as they never apply the rules to themselves, their friends or their wives tennis partners.

Its a bit like the myth of Hitler being an atheist, its only spread to denigrate the thing inaccurately attached to him without a clear focus on the individual themselves.

(yeah yeah Godwins law)

Sorry my friend, but that distinction is so weak as to be transparent, What you're doing is removing blame, and we're talking some pretty egregious blame here on a genocidal scale, in order to keep the concept of communism warm and fuzzy for all the little socialists and communist wannabe's out there who love the concept and have never experienced atrocity. Also, you're side stepping the original reason this came up in the first place because Mad Mike was all like "I just can't understand why anybody would have a problem with Communism" to which my points have been made.

Edit: sorry rootsrat, I was typing while you posted that.

 

[jasonbarron]

For what it's worth, all those communist guys were massive jerks and deserve the scorn they get. Also, have you seen Death of Stalin yet? You'd love it.

That said...

My own country, the United States, is not a place I would want to raise a family either. Big reason I say this is I believe there's a lot of value in pointing the finger at our own failings. It's all fine and good to talk about failed communist states and whether they were truly communist or not and this and that... but I don't live there. I live here.

This opens up an entirely new line of conversation, and I'll decline to go down it in favor of staying somewhere in the vicinity of the original topic. With that said, it sounds more like something that has to do with your general view on whether you and your partner/wife should start a family or not, not so much a "place" argument. For what it's worth, I want my kids to grow up where they have the best chance for freedom against tyranny and the widest range of opportunities to pursue life, liberty and happiness

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

This opens up an entirely new line of conversation, and I'll decline to go down it in favor of staying somewhere in the vicinity of the original topic. With that said, it sounds more like something that has to do with your general view on whether you and your partner/wife should start a family or not, not so much a "place" argument. For what it's worth, I want my kids to grow up where they have the best chance for freedom against tyranny and the widest range of opportunities to pursue life, liberty and happiness

Feel free to PM me. I'd love to go down that road.

I'll just say here the place factors into it and it's obviously a very personal decision.

And to bring it back on topic I can't agree more with your last statement. Granted, it might look different for me and you and everyone else, but I believe deeply we can make it there. It's core to how I identify, and make peace with, being an American. We can be better than we are.

 

[jasonbarron]

Feel free to PM me. I'd love to go down that road.

I'll just say here the place factors into it and it's obviously a very personal decision.

And to bring it back on topic I can't agree more with your last statement. Granted, it might look different for me and you and everyone else, but I believe deeply we can make it there. It's core to how I identify, and make peace with, being an American. We can be better than we are.

I will be happy to, my friend. Unfortunately I'm working at the moment, so I can't indulge deep thoughts until I get that wrapped up

 

[Patrick_68000]

Doesn't matter, that wasn't your argument. This was:

Also, how much time have you spent in the states?

I've never been.

Of course there are great things in the United States.

But from what I see, weapons, buildings, pollution, obesity, justice, violence, frankly really I want not to go there.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Switzerland disagrees.

Switzerland agrees not to be excluded from Schengen area and anti-terror laws.

Semi-automatic weapons equipped with a large capacity magazine are now prohibited. By a large majority, the Swiss approved (May 2019) the referendum reform of the weapons legislation.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Obviously those are a large issue. I live less than 10 minutes driving from one of the major shootings in the past few years and have very close friends, both pro and anti guns, that were affected by it. People are working to address the issue and make it better. To simply dismiss us all as savages is idiotic in the extreme.

We're humans. All the good. All the bad. Everything in between.

Take the advice I give myself regarding these issues. Mind your business.

I did not think of the word "savage" basically.

I wanted to say that in 2019, still believing in the Wild West at the time of cowboys and the duels in the street was perhaps a little outdated, and in all cases frankly ridiculous.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

I've never been.

Of course there are great things in the United States.

But from what I see, weapons, buildings, pollution, obesity, justice, violence, frankly really I want not to go there.

You're missing out on some amazing natural beauty like Yellowstone National Park, Zion National Park, or the Grand Canyon. Beyond that, we've got some incredible cities like New York City or Las Vegas (what happens there stays there! ).

Or heck, visit my humble hometown of Cleveland, Ohio and get yourself some world class orchestra action. Amazing food, too!

 

[Naj3here]

No. Do what you want......

 

[Patrick_68000]

You're missing out on some amazing natural beauty like Yellowstone National Park, Zion National Park, or the Grand Canyon. Beyond that, we've got some incredible cities like New York City or Las Vegas (what happens there stays there! ).

Or heck, visit my humble hometown of Cleveland, Ohio and get yourself some world class orchestra action. Amazing food, too!

I am the first to recognize that there are wonderful landscapes in the United States and certainly also very pretty small welcoming cities

Concerning New York, Las Vegas or other megacity, my god what a horror ! Give me oxygen.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

I am the first to recognize that there are wonderful landscapes in the United States and certainly also very pretty small welcoming cities

Concerning New York, Las Vegas or other megacity, my god what a horror ! Give me oxygen.

Then Cleveland is for you! Go there in the spring. Some of the nicest people you'd ever meet.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Sorry my friend, but that distinction is so weak as to be transparent, What you're doing is removing blame, and we're talking some pretty egregious blame here on a genocidal scale, in order to keep the concept of communism warm and fuzzy for all the little socialists and communist wannabe's out there who love the concept and have never experienced atrocity. Also, you're side stepping the original reason this came up in the first place because Mad Mike was all like "I just can't understand why anybody would have a problem with Communism" to which my points have been

The only person here who cannot tell the difference between vastly different concepts such as dictatorship and communism is you.

Did you ever consider that when your answer is different to everybody's, maybe you should check why that is?

Maybe everybody else isnt a "liberal commie out to get you"?

See if you can figure it out.

 

[Morbad]

The bottom line is this, gents: it doesn't MATTER what the ideal in the manual of communism says, or how rosy it appears in theory, when it leads down the road to such atrocities that are well documented and widely known.

Words have meanings. To ignore their meaning then misapply them as labels just obfuscates actual history and actual issues.

Communism didn't lead down the road you are talking about.

Show me any example of where communism lead to an outcome where you would want to live and raise your family.

Closest thing I can think of to a communist state would be some of the Scandinavian countries. I could could probably live as well there as anywhere.

All the best examples of communism never called themselves communists, either because they predated the coining of the term, were other things first and foremost, or wanted to avoid the stigma of despotic regimes that falsely claimed to be such.

For what it's worth, all those communist guys were massive jerks and deserve the scorn they get.

My point is that none of them were communists in practice and the assertion that communism, something that they never implemented and barely held on to the pretense of, is what made them among the worst of dictators, is absurd. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, North Korea's Kim dynasty...these weren't communists, they were despots and they didn't use their power to impose communism, they used it to retain personal power.

What you're doing is removing blame

He's not removing blame, you are...by misdirecting it onto a convenient, but fallacious, label.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

My point is that none of them were communists in practice and the assertion that communism, something that they never implemented and barely held on to the pretense of, is what made them among the worst of dictators, is absurd. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, North Korea's Kim dynasty...these weren't communists, they were despots and they didn't use their power to impose communism, they used it to retain personal power.

Bingo. You seen Death of Stalin by chance? Can't recommend it enough!

 

[Morbad]

Bingo. You seen Death of Stalin by chance? Can't recommend it enough!

Yes, I quite enjoyed it.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

As usual, its doubtful that we've been much use to Uni. His situation is too unusual for general advice to be applicable.

Some kind of farm work might be a better fit for him? Whenever people give me a hard time, I enjoy the quiet company of animals much more.

 

[jasonbarron]

Words have meanings. To ignore their meaning then misapply them as labels just obfuscates actual history and actual issues.

Communism didn't lead down the road you are talking about.



Closest thing I can think of to a communist state would be some of the Scandinavian countries. I could could probably live as well there as anywhere.

All the best examples of communism never called themselves communists, either because they predated the coining of the term, were other things first and foremost, or wanted to avoid the stigma of despotic regimes that falsely claimed to be such.



My point is that none of them were communists in practice and the assertion that communism, something that they never implemented and barely held on to the pretense of, is what made them among the worst of dictators, is absurd. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, North Korea's Kim dynasty...these weren't communists, they were despots and they didn't use their power to impose communism, they used it to retain personal power.



He's not removing blame, you are...by misdirecting it onto a convenient, but fallacious, label.

You can hide behind semantics in a cheap attempt at scoring forum points all you want, but these were considered "communist regimes" by historians, no matter how badly you want to move the goalposts and hide behind pedantry.

https://www.history.com/topics/cold-war/pol-pot

https://www.history.com/topics/russia/joseph-stalin

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/mao_zedong.shtml

I don't need to argue with you on this, history is pretty clear. The above were just some random hits on a quick Google search, but the information is damning. You can run your choppers at me for the sake of it, or perhaps you fall in the category of thinking communism is for the cool kids, but I really don't care either way.

Anyway, signing off this thread. Un1 isn't getting much help with this and I'm not going to contribute to further derailment.

 

[Arry]

Logically: he should have made a few applications, by now; without leaving his hiding place. Everything like this, is mostly done on-line, these days.

How's it going Rainbow Farts?

 

[Morbad]

You can hide behind semantics

If I'm hiding behind semantics, then you're weaving definitions out whole cloth.

I don't need to argue with you on this, history is pretty clear.

It's not the history that's in question, but your dubious grasp of it. So far you've regurgitated some middle-school level articles mixed in with a whole lot of Cold War era propaganda and bias.

If you think you could define communism in your own words, and then explain what you think made these regimes or states communist, by all means, please do. I've looked far and wide for such an argument that goes beyond "well, they put the word in their name/manifesto, so that must be what they are" and have never seen one...well, not one that was rooted in anything that could be mistaken for fact (though there is some fascinating alternative history fiction out there).

these were considered "communist regimes" by historians

Some historians consider them "communist" in the same sense the DPRK is "democratic" or that Zimbabwe under Mugabe was a "republic"...they take a title or statement of intent at face value, for whatever reason. Not going to be easy to find a credible historian who believes any of these states ever really got close to realizing communism, or that their policies were ever seriously headed in that direction.

If your primary criticism of these regimes seems to come down to the lip service these despots payed to their take Marxist philosophy, you've completely missed the point of how and why they were so destructive.