General / Off-Topic Is the world becoming less forgiving and less humanly for our wrongdoers?

[AluminumAlloy]

Think we already have more than enough answers that are balancing the self-defense/survival thing to the point that there's no way of telling which side has won. We should probably get back on the discussion as to how an individual being imperfect and/or a criminal justifies themselves to be killed on discretion and not danger, justified according to the people in a nation of democracy, indicates a rising trend in dictatorship and inhumane personalities.

 

[Arry]

Think we already have more than enough answers that are balancing the self-defense/survival thing to the point that there's no way of telling which side has won. We should probably get back on the discussion as to how an individual being imperfect and/or a criminal justifies themselves to be killed on discretion and not danger, justified according to the people in a nation of democracy, indicates a rising trend in dictatorship and inhumane personalities.

Every one deservers a trail, a hearing, an examination of the fasts. Unfortunately: Layers get involved and the truth becomes man made; facts are changed. But still justice must be seen to be done.

 

[Ozram]

Think we already have more than enough answers that are balancing the self-defense/survival thing to the point that there's no way of telling which side has won. We should probably get back on the discussion as to how an individual being imperfect and/or a criminal justifies themselves to be killed on discretion and not danger, justified according to the people in a nation of democracy, indicates a rising trend in dictatorship and inhumane personalities.

I think I may be struggling to understand you because of a language barrier. You have a lot of non sequiturs in the above two run on sentences.

 

[Demascus]

an individual being imperfect and/or a criminal justifies themselves to be killed on discretion and not danger, justified according to the people in a nation of democracy, indicates a rising trend in dictatorship and inhumane personalities.

Your opinion, I see no such evidence showing democracy trending towards a dictatorship. I would argue that an armed population counters a rise in dictatorships.

 

[AluminumAlloy]

snip

Please don't be offended, but that Arabic writing above the "NEVER FORGIVE .." for whatever it says that I can't understand is a little questionable.

 

[Demascus]

I am not offended. "Never forgive those who took the lives of our brothers, Never forget their memory or their sacrifice in the line of duty." A sentiment I carry in memory of the 18 Marines and friends I lost in Afghanistan 2009. Anything else?

 

[verminstar]

Every one deservers a trail, a hearing, an examination of the fasts. Unfortunately: Layers get involved and the truth becomes man made; facts are changed. But still justice must be seen to be done.

That's half the problem sometimes...lawyers can bend the truth into a lie and a lie can be dressed up to look like a truth. They twist things and fall back on little technicalities because it's their job to ensure the guilty walk free...the more money ye throw at them, the better they are at it. Happens every single day here...me own family have done it and walked free even though they guilty as sin...because they had a top notch brief so I'm really not making this up.

And therein lies the rub...people have lost all faith in law and order because it has failed so many times. Perhaps before we adjust our attitudes, the broken laws that gave us this attitude needs to be fixed, otherwise it will just keep happening over and over. Of course people look for alternatives because that's the single only way they can get any form of justice and retribution.

If people wanna stop this sorta thing from happening, then look to the reasons why. What caused this to happen? Fix the cause and this little problem goes away...ignore the cause and this problem will simply get worse.

To the OP...accusing those attitudes of being inhuman or a dictatorship just doesn't make sense and does absolutely nothing to explain it. How does that attitude point towards a dictatorship? It's not even logical and as for being inhumane...I would say it's the law of the land that is inhumane, hence why the people look for alternatives...yet according to your logic, the people are in the wrong.

I'm really not understanding yer point of view at all...so far all ye seem to have done is point out several points that ye think are the actions of the inhumane and dictators without explaining why.

So why do ye think those views are inhumane and dictatorial? I'm curious because the logic I see makes it the exact opposite...the state and outside influences are telling us what's fair and right and ignoring our calls for a tougher line completely and quoting "human rights" to us and telling us we are wrong and that's that...which means the state itself is being the dictator and inhumane. And yet you come to a very different conclusion, how exactly?

 

[Ozram]

That's half the problem sometimes...lawyers can bend the truth into a lie and a lie can be dressed up to look like a truth. They twist things and fall back on little technicalities because it's their job to ensure the guilty walk free...the more money ye throw at them, the better they are at it. Happens every single day here...me own family have done it and walked free even though they guilty as sin...because they had a top notch brief so I'm really not making this up.

And therein lies the rub...people have lost all faith in law and order because it has failed so many times. Perhaps before we adjust our attitudes, the broken laws that gave us this attitude needs to be fixed, otherwise it will just keep happening over and over. Of course people look for alternatives because that's the single only way they can get any form of justice and retribution.

If people wanna stop this sorta thing from happening, then look to the reasons why. What caused this to happen? Fix the cause and this little problem goes away...ignore the cause and this problem will simply get worse.

To the OP...accusing those attitudes of being inhuman or a dictatorship just doesn't make sense and does absolutely nothing to explain it. How does that attitude point towards a dictatorship? It's not even logical and as for being inhumane...I would say it's the law of the land that is inhumane, hence why the people look for alternatives...yet according to your logic, the people are in the wrong.

I'm really not understanding yer point of view at all...so far all ye seem to have done is point out several points that ye think are the actions of the inhumane and dictators without explaining why.

So why do ye think those views are inhumane and dictatorial? I'm curious because the logic I see makes it the exact opposite...the state and outside influences are telling us what's fair and right and ignoring our calls for a tougher line completely and quoting "human rights" to us and telling us we are wrong and that's that...which means the state itself is being the dictator and inhumane. And yet you come to a very different conclusion, how exactly?

Remember that kid that got away with killing pedestrians while drink driving because of "affluenza"? Yeah...

 

[verminstar]

I remember the case of the convicted peedo being released on a technicality which involved his human rights being breached during the police search for evidence...guy went onto kidnap,      and murder a 14year old girl less than a week later.

So many great examples of how human rights are protecting us and making us more humane...so what if it costs us some of our children hmm? So long as we get to keep the moral high ground ^^

 

[Adept]

I remember the case of the convicted peedo being released on a technicality which involved his human rights being breached during the police search for evidence...guy went onto kidnap,      and murder a 14year old girl less than a week later.

So many great examples of how human rights are protecting us and making us more humane...so what if it costs us some of our children hmm? So long as we get to keep the moral high ground ^^

You have to consider the bigger picture. There will be outrageous miscarriages of justice, but that doesn't mean things wouldn't be much, much worse without things like Miranda rights, Habeas Corpus and human rights in general. It's not some abstract thought experiment. History tells us how things were before those things, and it wasn't pretty.

Harsh justice can be appealing, but the cost is way too high. They are never applied only to the wicked and the guilty.

 

[AluminumAlloy]

So what I get here are people saying "If someone is a criminal, who cares if they die!" and the notion that if one commits a crime, they'd do it again. Tell you what, my father has a friend that faced several big charges decades ago. He took off his criminal records by Pardons Canada and now he's living his life with kids as a good man, we also go fishing with him once or twice every summer and he talks on the boat about this "barbaric", low sense of morality some people out there have that nearly stopped him from having a family. It's up for you to decide how to view criminals, but from my Catholic perspective as to what iv'e seen not only happen for the future of my father's friend, but for many others, it surely won't be the same perspective for the personality of people here who have posted negative responses.

 

[verminstar]

So what I get here are people saying "If someone is a criminal, who cares if they die!" and the notion that if one commits a crime, they'd do it again. Tell you what, my father has a friend that faced several big charges decades ago. He took off his criminal records by Pardons Canada and now he's living his life with kids as a good man, we also go fishing with him once or twice every summer and he talks on the boat about this "barbaric", low sense of morality some people out there have that nearly stopped him from having a family. It's up for you to decide how to view criminals, but from my Catholic perspective as to what iv'e seen not only happen for the future of my father's friend, but for many others, it surely won't be the same perspective for the personality of people here who have posted negative responses.

Yer assuming a great deal here. I too have a criminal record and quite a serious one by most standards, however much like yer friend, my past stays in the past and I took the consequences afterwards. However, the situation was something I was born into and many choices were already made fer me...times have changed here. This does not change my perspective because as a young man, I still feared my own side more than I feared the law itself...which is quite an achievement considering the RUC in the later part of the last century had a bit of a reputation for brutality. Can assure ye that reputation was highly deserved.

I have been discriminated against because of my past many times...was a time I got arrested in London simply because of my accent. "Criminals" is a very wide sweeping word which could describe a great many different people...you assume ye knew what my background was due to my opinions, however ye couldn't have been more wrong if ye tried. My opinions on the worst offenders however stays the same...life for a life and crimes against children are dealt with very harshly and to hell with the human rights. What about their victims rights?

I'm not coming at this from a catholic perspective...or any religious perspective fer that matter. You were the one that asked for perspectives with the thread...religiously biased perspectives were not specified and I see it simply as right and wrong and consequence...a game of three halfs as we say around here.

@Adept...the bigger picture being that many people have lost faith in the current law and order system. Used to be lawyers who boasted about helping the guilty walk free from court if ye could afford them and just about everyone knows that justice is not blind when enough money is involved. That's how I see the bigger picture because that's by and large what it's like on ground level which is where my perspective is based on.

I appreciate that miscarriages of justice happen, both when the guilty walk free and when the innocent get locked up fer decades...I'm from northern ireland where we have many examples of both and even a few movies made about them. Just that sometimes, it feels as though there are too many miscarriages happening. Too many of the most dangerous slipping through the cracks and too many with the money to throw at the system to turn a blind eye. The law needs tightened and toughened up if it's to be effective in some places because as much as anyone might disagree with harsh justice, it's only a problem because the law is ineffective at dealing with the original problem in the first place. Deal with it properly the first time and there won't be any need fer harsh justice. Keep the current imperfect system and harsh justice will be inevitable, especially given the current tinderbox situation in the world.

It would be unwise to ignore the huge groundswell of anger and resentment twice considering that's what lost brexit...imagine the consequences of continuing to ignore the problems.

Simply shrugging and deciding that the good of the many outweigh the good of a few doesn't really cut the mustard fer me. Gonna have to agree to disagree on this I'm afraid.

 

[Yaffle]

All

I've had to delete a few posts dealing with personal attacks and insults. Please don't do that. Stick to the topic, don't snipe at each other.

 

[Patrick_68000]

All

I've had to delete a few posts dealing with personal attacks and insults. Please don't do that. Stick to the topic, don't snipe at each other.

But why ? Can we make an exception for the French commanders ? It is the tradition

 

[Adept]

I absolutely agree that we need to do better Verminstar. I still think we mustn't go back into any kind of non-democratic system or allow backsliding on human rights. Criminals needs to get caught, studied and helped to become regular members of society where at all possible. You know from personal experience that it does happen.

This must not mean leniency in the sense that violent and sex offender criminals get mild sentences for example. The goal should be to make sure repeat offences are as rare as possible. Councelling and monitoring can both be useful here, as well as improving the prisons. "Punishing" the guilty is not the real goal, protecting the innocent is.

 

[verminstar]

The whole way in which harsh justice works is that it is illegal in itself, and I fully agree that it should stay illegal...even though I support the UK bringing back the death penalty in the form of public hanging. Harsh justice happens when the law fails, and it has failed so many times that vigilante justice has become quite common in some areas. The groups and individuals who do this were asked...by the community who have just had enough of being dictated to by a soft political system. These guys didn't just decide to become vigilantes one day, while others go around with the romantic notion of wearing a black cape and mask. Nothing so romantic I can assure ye.

It's the community itself that demands this action be taken, so how do you appeal to those people? Normal law abiding people, more or less...many of them go to church, have 9 to 5 regular jobs, 2 cars, a mortgage bla bla whatever "normal" people have these days...these are the people who have lost faith in law and order. Our politicians and our law makers use the same line you do, but it's not enough and the people want more and they want it now...not 5 years down the line...now.

Ye know the police don't even bother appealing fer witnesses when the likes of punishment beatings take place on the estate? They learned long ago that witnesses are non existent either because they support the paramilitaries or they simply fear the consequences should they start telling tales on the neighbors. This happens because the law has failed and continues to fail and so the community itself turns to whatever alternatives exist. By all means, argue up a solution for the likes of my estate...there is no house breaking here...no car crimes, no joyriding, no muggings, no sexual assaults and no kids being bullied. Following your advice means welcoming all that lovely stuff back into our community because criminals have no fear of the law here...they fear the community itself. Even vandalism of the kids playground is not tolerated.

So by all means...how would you appeal to this community for example? Because as much as you dislike this form of harsh justice, it works. So without fairly fundamental and profound changes in the law, yer argument will be to stop doing what we do and allow the worst of the worst to move back into our community and do as they please, whilst hoping the keystone cops keep our streets and children safe. Ye do see how this looks right? Changing the law isn't a request, its a demand...a demand that translates into "do it or this continues" There is no compromise here, no deals to be made...we have been trying to get deals over the course of half a century and all that happens is our community suffers more, because of decisions made elsewhere.

Ye want us to change but offer nothing in return...nothing. The law can barely deal with day to day crime as it is, so how exactly are they gonna stop harsh justice when they can't even deal with petty stuff efficiently? They been trying for decades to stop it and they have failed quite spectacularly.

Bottom line is, the law has to change...otherwise we won't.

As fer being resettled into society when ye have a record. I've been asked to leave city center restaurants because of the tattoos on my arms and neck, the short receding hairline that shows the scars of a violent past. I get stopped when driving by cops who know me and have my car searched at the side of the road while me and my daughter stand in the rain...even though I turned my back on violence over 15 years ago, they take any opportunity they can to make life difficult fer me. I can't emigrate to canada...that being the plan if we got dragged back into the EU...my daughter can go but not me because of my past. Can't get a job unless it's low paid and the boss a personal friend of mine...sorta more along the lines of an old m8 doing a favor.

In short, society has done absolutely nothing to resettle me...if anything, they made it as hard as possible and everything I have in my life now, I had to fight tooth and nail for. I walked away from a past life and all society has done in the last 15 years is make my life as hard as it was possible to make it. I know all about discrimination I can assure ye of that. The part where people judge ye on first sight is something I see every single day...so I really don't feel as though I owe "society" a single damned thing. Especially not when ye see guys who were guilty of far worse things in the 70s and 8os of far worse atrocities now in politics with nice big houses...funny how that happened, wouldn't ye agree? Who was it said crime doesn't pay? Trust me...it does so long as yer smart enough to know how the system really works ^^

 

[Minonian]

Well... Here comes a big necromancy.

To be honest i'd given a lot of tough about fear and terror this is possibly one of the hardest questions i ever faced, and right now i'm just want to get over it for good, so i don't wait for the opportunity but rather make it to myself.

So? I don't think the world, becomes less forgiving toward wrongdoing. In the matter of fact, i think humankind was alnd always will unforgiving towards wrong and fear. There is something within our genes our blood, what's ultimately i can't describe any better than primal rage against fear. Think it over! We hunted into extinction any species what's ever threatened us, stating with cave bears, and saber tooth tiger. And the list of our victims are awfully long. We are not prey, neither predator we are something else. A specie whom does not tolerate threat. And the wery same goes to every person society nation and ideology who tires to operates the methods of terror as we call it today. A dictator can think he can use this methods to keep his people in check and it's works for a whlle because life instinct is a powerful tool. But in the first opportunity given? We rebel against it, and end it. This is how our nature works. And this is what's waits to the terrorists too.

We going to hunt them until just a single one remains, just because they made us fear!
We hate to fear!
This is what's waits every dictatoric system.
We always going to rebel against them so if they want to remain in power? The only possible method is terror and death, but with it they are just making things worst. as they using more and more intimidating tactics to keep the population in check, so as the rage against them is deepens.

And this is the method, the instinct what abused by racists and anyone whom building his religious and political carrer into fear, and rage whatever form of we speak about it? Fear from hell, or xenophoby? makes no difference! They are trying to stir up our darker side to control us, make us predictable. But ultimately? It's bites into their butt! Because this kind of fear once awakens it cannot be stopped until anything remains to destroy, and in turn? The rest of the world going to destroy them out of fear from the awakened beast.

The cornered rat is a pale comparsion considering what we do under the pressure of threat. Don't play with fear, and don't think it's serves you, you can make others to serve you. Never ever underestimate the power of the dark side, because its uncontrollable and unstoppable, and ultimately eats up alive and destroys everything.

We humans wipe out everything we are afraid of, and we don't stop until a single trace of it remains.
And what's more fearful than the perfect destroyer? This is the ultimate folly to use fear as a tool.

 

[L0CI]

Indeed. I am certain I'm quite capable of killing in hot blood or cold rage, and I suspect I would of I caught somebody doing something utterly unforgiveable. The thing is, I don't think I should get any kind of free pass for doing so. Taking a life to avenge a loved one is something we can't stop from happening with legislation, but it shouldn't be encouraged either. If you have to kill, do it and accept you will go to prison for it.

That's about the long and the short of it!

_

As for the death penalty, that's not something I can currently support. You can free a man from incarceration if it transpires he is innocent. Reanimation is decidedly trickier. As much as some people may 'deserve' to die, the justice system isn't competent to mete out this kind of punishment.

 

[Minonian]

That's about the long and the short of it!

_

As for the death penalty, that's not something I can currently support. You can free a man from incarceration if it transpires he is innocent. Reanimation is decidedly trickier. As much as some people may 'deserve' to die, the justice system isn't competent to mete out this kind of punishment.

No? What about the peoples like the mass murderer Breivik?
I think his situation is pretty oblivious, and altrough i think its fine if he rot in prison, but honestly? He deserves worst.

 

[Ian Skippy]

No? What about the peoples like the mass murderer Breivik?
I think his situation is pretty oblivious, and altrough i think its fine if he rot in prison, but honestly? He deserves worst.

The thing is you cannot determine who you are certain about and who not. You can try, but history shows completely innocent people get sentenced to death anyway. You may argue the death sentence is fine in case X or Y, but it automatically means accepting false positives. Whether you are okay with that or not is anyone's personal choice.