Is there enough "game" in this game?

[Gavin Burke]

Controversial subject at times, I know, but when playing other games on my XBox, I've noticed they've done away with ALOT of immersion to make the game more game like and maybe not more fun, but quicker to get at the fun.

For instance, I've been playing Ghost Recon Wildlands lately and noticed if you get in a vehicle and just drive or fly off, the three ghosts just appear after you get a short distance away from them. So instead of being immersive and making you wait for them to get in, you get to just drive off and "play" the game.

Now when it comes to Elite, a hell of a lot of the "game" seems to be about being immersive over a game - but I bought Elite from the game section of the XBox store, not the app section, so I would expect the primary focus of development to be game-like, rather than making sure it does take a long time to do any little thing, like docking, or dropping from orbital flight (this one takes the biscuit, at 25km from surface going 2.5km/s - the game hangs for like 15 seconds.... that equals death in ANY maths of any kind!!).

So would like to get all your thoughts, on how you think this game could be more game-like rather than app-like-space-discovery?

 

[Rob At Work]

It's not just simply a game its a simulation of a fantasy type game type thingy.

 

[c00ky1970]

I think its a balancing act of "realism" (it has faster than light travel and brain trees so not 100% real) and enjoyability (do i really want to wait for 1 hour whilst 200t of cargo is loaded, or await my escape pod being rescued by NPC/Player and returned to station where i can fill out insurance form and have my ship built).

Part of a game is being enjoyed, for Multi-crew a gameplay decision was made by FDev that crewing up is instantaneous, because the whole point of MC is being together pew-pewing stuff, not having to use in game chat/external website to agree to travel to a specific location so all players could join a specific ship.
Part of Elite's attraction is its sense of scale, people haul stuff to Hutton Orbital because it takes a long time, or travel to Sag A* because it takes a long time, or go to Colonia/Beagle point because it takes a long time.

However, unlike other games where you do the long hard thing once and then there is a fast travel/skip button option so you can rinse and repeat quickly, Elite doesn't give you that. This then generates play around quick return locations Sothis/Ceos for fast Sirius ranking, Quince for Empire ranking etc. Part of a players goal is to do stuff, but do it as quickly as possible, this can never be eliminated.

Porting to Xbox, PS4 or even Nintendo Switch (The Elite: Not Really that dangerous version) will not introduce speed up actions as such, as the whole thing is that it is a port of te game based ona common backend data set, the challenges you have is these consoles typically only have controller support (PS4 has Keyboard and mouse support and also supports HOTAS, Nintendo will probably support vigorous shaking of the controllers to escape interdiction ;-) ) so its more about how players can use the controller with its limited set of inputs to control their ships.

Consoles also are no way as powerful as PC's - that si a given, so alot of porting is making the game look as good as a PC experience, ior more likely as close to the PC experience that teh hardware will allow. i don't know what Xbox actual game resolution is and what FOPS it has, w have no idea what the PS4 or PS4 Pro will offer (4k resolution?? more likely some form of upscaling), again thsi doesnt detract from PC game its more how they shoe horn all this stuff into the console.

For the future, the holy grail of walking about in Elite is something that some players (not me) see as critical path, if you take a step back and think about that, any interaction using feet (typically shooting the other person) will definitely game-ify the experience as being "killed" whilst walking about will be a return to rebuy/respawn screen - not realistic.

If the experience isn't enjoyable people won't buy it or play it, which means no cash coming into Frontier, which means 'game over man, game over'.

 

[DoctorDanny]

It's a decent game as it stands. Nothing spectacular though.

The game has by no means fulfilled it's potential or it's promise.
That's the main reason you see so many posts of former fans and supporters (many of them from the KS days) that are now rather critical of the game.
It's pretty depressing to read the KS and DDF stuff and then see what was delivered instead.
Add to that the fact that development appears to be slowing down and you start to see why so many complain.

As to your question how to make the game better. I'd suggest reading through the old DDF threads, it's all there.

 

[danowat]

From my perspective, the "game" part is purely combat, all the other, for want of a better word, diversions are a route to earning money to buy parts for the "game".

 

[K-Rose]

I think it's getitng more "gamelike", and I think it's being done in a sensible way.

I don't mind "hand wavium" and all that stuff.

For me this game is about feeling like the CMDR of a space ship. It still acheives that so it's a success in my book.

 

[Watcher]

Simulations are games too, just of a different type. Game doesn't have to mean as simple and easy as possible.
I'd like to see some more simulation side elements to be honest. Accessibility is important and a certain amount of intuitive play is important but for the longer term depth and breadth of options and opportunities are what I would hope for. Elite isn't bad, but could certainly be better in this regard on both sides of that.

 

[Gavin Burke]

That's the main reason you see so many posts of former fans and supporters (many of them from the KS days) that are now rather critical of the game.
It's pretty depressing to read the KS and DDF stuff and then see what was delivered instead.
Add to that the fact that development appears to be slowing down and you start to see why so many complain.

I understand that from the Kickstarter there was all this promise of a simulation as such, but I bought the game a couple years later, under the game section of the XBox One store and spent quite a while (like I expect most new players for the past year) wondering where the "game" part was as it seemed like an empty sandbox on first few plays

 

[SJT]

I understand that from the Kickstarter there was all this promise of a simulation as such, but I bought the game a couple years later, under the game section of the XBox One store and spent quite a while (like I expect most new players for the past year) wondering where the "game" part was as it seemed like an empty sandbox on first few plays

FD suckered players of the original 80's game into coughing up loads of cash for a remake (including a single player version). They then released this thing (minus the single player version) and suckered people further by acquiring more of their money for poor "seasons" of expansions and features whilst continuing to dumb down what could have been a promising PC game for the console market.

Having said that, like every other company they are there to make money for their share holders and integrity doesn't come into it.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

I bought Ghost Recon hoping I would get a good game. Instead what I got is a game with only a few types of mission, simple enemies and the chance to hold the 'W' key for a long time between doing the same thing as I had done in the previous zone. Elite is far more entertaining than this in every aspect plus it does not have the frame pacing issues GRW has. What it gets right is the story and how it is told. You are given a very free approach to how you finish the campaign and missions - I like to just drive in and shoot everyone, not interested in stealth. Granted there are some mission that say you have to be stealthy but you can just shoot everyone first and then roll in and complete the task - Elite has smuggling missions which are far harder to complete.

This is of course just my opinion but I think Elite has far more 'Game' than GRW.

 

[korombei]

Now when it comes to Elite, a hell of a lot of the "game" seems to be about being immersive over a game - but I bought Elite from the game section of the XBox store, not the app section, so I would expect the primary focus of development to be game-like, rather than making sure it does take a long time to do any little thing, like docking, or dropping from orbital flight (this one takes the biscuit, at 25km from surface going 2.5km/s - the game hangs for like 15 seconds.... that equals death in ANY maths of any kind!!).

But that is 'game'. Would you rather just look at a loading bar when dropping from orbital flight? They've covered the loading and transition processes in a way that at least keeps you in the game world (how successful this is depends on your point of view, I suppose). Docking is part of the game - if you want to bypass the skill aspect then you can get a docking computer, but the tradeoff is it takes longer. That sounds like a game to me.

I don't know, seems like a game to me. If you want an instant action space shooter this isn't it.

 

[Ryan P Bodfirst]

I've always thought that the beauty of elite is that it managed to have great gameplay and be a believable simulation at the same time - I don't see why one has to exclude the other. Though it is more challenging to create a game that achieves this.

Now currently I think Ed does ok in this but there's certainly work still to be done in areas of the gameplay mechanics.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Controversial subject at times, I know, but when playing other games on my XBox, I've noticed they've done away with ALOT of immersion to make the game more game like and maybe not more fun, but quicker to get at the fun.

For instance, I've been playing Ghost Recon Wildlands lately and noticed if you get in a vehicle and just drive or fly off, the three ghosts just appear after you get a short distance away from them. So instead of being immersive and making you wait for them to get in, you get to just drive off and "play" the game.

Now when it comes to Elite, a hell of a lot of the "game" seems to be about being immersive over a game - but I bought Elite from the game section of the XBox store, not the app section, so I would expect the primary focus of development to be game-like, rather than making sure it does take a long time to do any little thing, like docking, or dropping from orbital flight (this one takes the biscuit, at 25km from surface going 2.5km/s - the game hangs for like 15 seconds.... that equals death in ANY maths of any kind!!).

So would like to get all your thoughts, on how you think this game could be more game-like rather than app-like-space-discovery?

Which is why noone will play Ghost Recon Wildlands three years from now, and noone will have hotly contested debates about trivial things on that games forums in a few years. Its 'throwaway fun'. Nothing wrong with it, but not what I want ED to be. I dont mind having some more instant-fun things addded, optionally, to the game (such as MC), but the core game should be as it is. Slow burning.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

Its a galaxy simulation, and as such creates a galaxy complete with a population, the resources and population of the galaxy create opportunities which we seize to make our gameplay.

70% of players voted against instant ship transfer which ought to give you a an idea of the level of dedication to immersion the playerbase has, There is uproar about the third person perspective gunner position in multicrew, and that the freecam is now allowing players to pilot their ships in external views as these are very gamey consoley / arcadey not in keeping with the spirit of the game. Why create an astonishingly accurate one to one scale galaxy simulation, one that has closely paralleled recent discoveries in real astronomy, see trappist 1 nasa's discovery is 40LY from us while ED has a similar system 39LY from Sol that is getting remoddelled to become trappist in 2.3 Live, if you are just going to make it go dumbed down for the iwin instant gratification gamer LOLZ experience?

 

[Faded Glory]

I dont mind having some more instant-fun things addded, optionally, to the game (such as MC), but the core game should be as it is. Slow burning.

Well, it needs to be really, doesn't it, as they plan / hope to keep developing it. ED is very addictive when you first start out, and I think it's easy to burn out.

That said, one thing that I feel would improve the feel of some things for me (and I fully accept that it won't happen), is slightly less reliance on RNG. Not for the engineers as it happens, being a PvE'er I don't feel the need to max out my mods, but more for the way we 'find' things, such as mission targets. I find some of the mechanics for this to be disappointingly slow for no good reason that I can see. Why do we need to wait a random amount of time, sometimes many minutes, for a target to spawn when we get to the place that we have been told they will be? There's no gameplay in that wait, and I believe that a few small changes (which I suggested here) would make the process more engaging.

As I said though, ED is the game it is, and I find by accepting that and not constantly wishing it were different, I can still have some fun in the game.

And @OP, regarding the 15 second hangs dropping from orbital cruise (aka the loading screens), I have them too in the main game, dropping from OC and from SC, but in 2.3 they are a beautiful 2.5 seconds, and 10 seconds has been knocked off my witchspace animation too. Oh, and when I enter a 'session', it is immediately populated with NPCs, no waiting 10+ seconds for them to start to spawn. This is for me by far the best thing that 2.3 has delivered! This is rock solid and 100% of the time (they made some changes to the session join protocol), so fingers crossed that it will continue into the live game.

 

[Gavin Burke]

And @OP, regarding the 15 second hangs dropping from orbital cruise (aka the loading screens), I have them too in the main game, dropping from OC and from SC, but in 2.3 they are a beautiful 2.5 seconds, and 10 seconds has been knocked off my witchspace animation too. Oh, and when I enter a 'session', it is immediately populated with NPCs, no waiting 10+ seconds for them to start to spawn. This is for me by far the best thing that 2.3 has delivered! This is rock solid and 100% of the time (they made some changes to the session join protocol), so fingers crossed that it will continue into the live game.

Maybe that's because all the Live server resources are currently hosting Beta

But yeh if 2.3 knocks off a load of the time between instancing, that would be super awesome

 

[dannysquid]

Isn't it really just a side-effect of doing everything procedurally? There's no huge storyline to progress through. It is what you make it.

I just play it when I fancy flying around in a spaceship!

 

[Faded Glory]

Maybe that's because all the Live server resources are currently hosting Beta

But yeh if 2.3 knocks off a load of the time between instancing, that would be super awesome

Yes, that's been suggested...

Then again, it was suggested in an earlier beta (when these transitions became very slow) that the slowdown was down to beta servers. But no, I believe that it's a technical change, if it were down to network / server loads it would be variable to some degree, and it's not.

 

[Vorxian]

I don't mind one or the other, game or simulation... or even a sensible mix of both.. Space legs will help a lot. Crewing a ship will help a lot. Even a different perspective on things, first person, ships, stations etc will add a new level of immersion.

What displeases me are pointless gamey walls stopping me having fun. Grinding is pointless and not fun. Jumponium is pointless and not fun. Being able to jump against the amount of fuel you have in the tank will be a great start for example. Bring back a good use for extra fuel, and add to the explorers reach. Right now exploring burns me out due to the pointless jump grinding (that's basically what it is). Stuff like that is not interesting or exciting for me. Is that gamey for being gamey? or is it gamey to pad out missing content? I don't even know the answer.

We have a game framework, that's filled out with foam. Occupies space, but is tasteless and has no nutritional value.

I'd rather see immersive content, and I believe legs / first person will help a lot with possibilities. If FDEV capitalise on these possibilities is another jagged rockface... but one step at a time I suppose.

 

[Troubletcat]

I really wish they'd added gameplay by making it more sim-ish, not less. Honestly FSX has more interesting gameplay to it than ED does, and that game has no combat or missions or trading or smuggling or any of those features.

What it does have is a core game experience that has an enormous amount of depth for people who want it, allowing players to use different kinds of navigation with their associated differing levels of challenge, control a fairly realistic radio, computer systems, autopilots, manage fuel mixture, deal with trim... All of these things mean that unlike in ED, you often actually have things to do for large chunks of the duration of an hour long flight (doesn't hurt that it being single-player means you can accelerate time during the parts when you don't).

ED was never going to be a super hardcore simulator, that's not what I'm asking for here. But maybe the question should've been asked at some point... "Hey, these 15 minute super-cruise journeys are pretty boring. Maybe we should give the player something to do during that time." And then the answer could maybe be something inspired by flight sims since... those are games that feature long journeys that don't get super boring. Ditto with "Hey, making 20 jumps in a row while traveling gets pretty repetitive and bland, what can we do to mix this up so the player is doing something other than just going through the motions?"

I'm not in favour of just making these things faster because I want space to feel big. But as it stands I find myself rarely willing to play the game because no matter how you choose to play it's a whole lot of not doing much interesting. Unless you're just grinding in a res or something you spend most of your time in ED traveling. And it's really bloody dull. Flight sims and similar are games based entirely around traveling that manage to not be nearly as boring. Maybe FDev could've taken a few more cues from them.