Isnt it somehow lame that Multicannons are so much better than Railguns and Cannons?

[TeRRoRiTe]

I currently fly with scatter cannons. When I manage to get into a good position, they totally devestate a target faster than multicannons ever could. Problem is: getting into that good position, lol.
I've had a few fights where I simply ran out of ammo for them, simply because I couldn't get into an ideal angle, and as a result, had to "shoot for whatever it's worth", winding up dealing damage similar to or even less than a shot from a multicannon, but having waaaaay less ammunition to waste. You simply don't get into the < 400 meters looking from above or below the target and your ship facing the target at the right angle for the pip to line up very easily.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

-- Deleted --

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

Kinetic rounds do higher damage on hulls not shields. Multicannons don't actually do more damage per round of ammo, they just expend more rounds per second then any other weapons.

thats why i said dps, damage per second, not damage per round.
sure, cannons and railguns have alot higher damage per round, but gatlings can ignore that just through the large amout of bullets they can spit out.

Heres a thought - high ammo costs and low ammo count do not "balance" weapons, they merely restrict their use to PvP (where generally you dont care about costs and sustainability within reason).

So I'm tempted to suggest that all ammo costs (except for missiles) be reduced to token levels and with decent ammo counts for everything (again excepting missiles) that way everything becomes viable for PvE use.

thats the thing. if 30 shots from the railgun would cost the same as 2000 gatling while dealing a similar amount of damage per second - fine.
Gatlings would be good for sustained damage or dogfights, railguns for medium-long range burst, and cannons somewhere in between i think.

also you have to see, that even a sidewinder can buy those weapons...and seriously...if you would start from scratch...could you afford a cannon or railgun in pve? if you have enough money so that you dont care anymore...sure, i would do the same. railguns for the win. but since those weapons are limited in two ways (not just one), they are barely worht using.
if Railgun and Cannon would cost a lot less and keep the ammo-limit - fine
if they would have increased magazine capacity for the same price - fine
simply a balanced cost per magazine or cost per damage. i guess the weapons would need a total overhaul to make them balanced, not just screwing with a few values.

 

[OneAmongOthers]

An Asp with 6 multi cannons will destroy shields. And against the eagle? It's shields are so weak that once they drop that ship folds like an empty beer can. Granted it's much more nimble than a Asp by a long shot, but with 6 multis spitting dirt cheap ammo that's hardly a problem. Gimballed instant hit weapons remove skill. I can see you, I can hit you. Your dodging and weaving means nothing since the second I pull the trigger damage is applied. Only chaff will stop an accurate hit.

 

[InMemoriamSirocco]

when will people learn not to complain about something being better than something else in this game?

All you are gonna achieve with this is getting MCs nerfed. They won't buff rails and cannons because THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE.

Instead, they are going to make MCs useless.

Don't complain! Haven't you people learned anything by now?

Be happy with what you got and don't criticize anything for being too powerful!

 

[Mike Evans]

Cannons and Railguns are meant to be able to deal more damage against larger ships than the ship you're firing from than a same sized multicannon would. If you're attacking smaller or same sized ships then multicannons may do better because of the amount of damage you can still do when missing a few shots where cannons and railguns are punishing if you miss.

 

[Briarée]

yeah, but the IF fits for all of them.

smaller target = less hit chance = less damage with all of them.
So miss with a Gatling a few times - no problem.
Miss with Cannon and Railgun - Ouch
bigger target more hits, still the multicannon is superior here. simply because it has a higher dps.

spending like 10x or even more money for ammunition just to damage subsystems better? do you realy think that is worth it, if you can just spend a few more gatling shots to totally shred the target?

burst damage is nice, if the dps would be balanced. if i can deal more damage in the same time with a gatling (even when i miss a lot of shots), then the burst damage is not worth it. burst damage is usually only good when you have enough range so that the enemy cant hit you...usually you dont have that advantage, and hitting with a cannon is pretty hard because of its slow moving projectiles.


from damage and function...yes, there they seem to be nice.
The ammo is the problem there...just a few shots that will make you poor in a very short time.
as i said...i think it would be better to actually balance those values. ammo price per magazine, damage per second, maybe even damage per magazine.

actually i love running my viper with 2 med pulse and 2 small gimballed canons.

i find it more effective than multi canon.

to kill sidewinders, no canon required, they just melt.
to kill cobras, clever usage of canon, it is rather rare occurence that i miss, just wait for the target to get a stable vector.
anything bigger is not a problem.

i was running 2 small beam + 2 med gimballed multi's before, and i had to refill ammo after i roughly stacked up 200K credits.
now i stil refill around the same time, but the stack is around 300k credits, so clearly, for me at least, it boosted my efficiency

ps: the credit amount i'm talking is the MAIN one (fed. for me) and doesn't account for the side one (empire / alliance / minor factions)

answer is probably because i rely more on lasers, and that the "burst" damage on modules is higher meaning less time spent / kill.

plus it is easier to take down bigger than cobra target now

thing is when using cannon, you just can't "spray" at will, you need to get smart at shooting to make them land on target

 

[Tigga]

I use cannons on the class 1 slots on my Asp. Why MCs really melt small ships quick, I find the cannons are better against Asps/larger, which I guess is what Mike just said.

They also have the advantage of being burst damage. I can use them for snapshots much better than multi-cannons, and I can fire in the gap between people reactively chaffing.

Burst damage is also one of the main advantages of rail guns. A lot of people use shield cells. You have to pop them early enough to allow them to activate before you shields go down. Doing a large amount of burst damage can often take the shields down quickly, which is very desirable against shield cells.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

Cannons and Railguns are meant to be able to deal more damage against larger ships than the ship you're firing from than a same sized multicannon would. If you're attacking smaller or same sized ships then multicannons may do better because of the amount of damage you can still do when missing a few shots where cannons and railguns are punishing if you miss.

but even there it seems that mutlicannons are stronger.
its not about the damage alone, as mentioned in this topic. the main problem is that its mostly not worth a shot (literaly). The bounty you get will maybe cover the price you had to spend in railgun/cannon shells, while a multicannon would mage a huge profit (seriously, imagine it like a guy who buys gatling ammo in an open crate - he doesnt care about a few bullets that fall out)

so the main problem is not about the usability of those weapons, not the damage or rate of fire or anything like that.
its simply that its not worth buying the ammo for them.
as mentioned in this topic, those are mainly pvp weapons were you dont care anymore.
if the values are correct, cannon and gatling deal a similar amout of damage per second (what is fine), but the ammo for the cannon costs like 10x more.
so the price per damage is waaaay off.

 

[tagos]

They are not better. They just require less skill. A pilot skilled in the use of fixed rails and cannons will punch way above the weight of someone rocking the standard gimballed beams and multi-cannons.

 

[GDMNW]

That could be the case Tagos, but it means practicing with them when you could be enjoying more success now with the gimballed beams and multicannons. I think most players will choose success now.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

Also a theoretical question:
From the wiki:
Class 1 Muticannon has 2dmg and armor pen A, 8 shots per second, 3dps, each shot costs 1c
Class 1 Cannon has 5dmg and also armor pen A, 0.5 shots per second also 3dps, but each shot costs 200c

so, a Gatling costs 8c per second, while a Cannon costs 100, both with the same damage per second. So i can deal 12.5x the damage for the same price.
Is that correct?

 

[Spork]

Ammo capacity upgrades would make them a more attractive option. I'm not going to head back to a station every 10 mins to reload when hunting in a combat zone/res/nav beacon. With the laser/mc combo you can do a combat zone for 1.5 hours between reloading. I've never even tried 1/2 the weapons because the ammo limits are pathetic.

Either have it as a fixed upgrade like armor or have it take an internal slot. Put in a longer "restocking/refilling ammo" timer when we reach the standard ammo limit so we still can't spray and pray with cannons.

It's so stupid that a ship capable of taking a couple hundred tons of cargo can only take the same amount of ammo as a sidewinder.

 

[Cathalo]

I have watched a few videos now, about weapons, combat, systems...
and all came to the same hidden conclusion: Cannons, Railguns & Co are not worth it.

Ammo is expensive for Cannon and Railgun
A few missed hits from the Gatling wont hurt much, but a missed shot from C&R does. You cant cary around a huge amount of ammo, and each missed shot means a lot of missed time and so damage.

DPS is way higher for Multicannons
If you can get a steady hail of bullets on the enemy ship, they seem to be waaaaay stronger than C&R (just watched a video on how long it takes with different weapons to kill Anaconda´s...cannons were the slowest, then railgun, gatling, dumbfire).
Bigger Ship = Easier Target = More Hits = More Damage

I mean...what is the reward of using them? shouldnt it be like a balanced system? Why should i waste money on C&R Ammunition, when Gatling is so much cheaper, a kill is so much faster?
Wouldnt it be better if the "dps" would be closer to eachother? so that one cheap gatling cant dominate a huge railgun in damage, cost and usability?
Also wouldnt it be usefull to balance the prices for full magazines? so that a x thousand shot magazine of small gatling bullets costs nearly the same as a few hundred cannon bullets or a few railgun shells?

I mean...i like the style of Cannons and Railguns, i dont like those "shoot as much as you can" weapons...i like slow weapons that can hit like a truck, Grenades, Snipers... But from what i have seen they are not even close to be usefull (besides sniping modules)

Also from a "realistic" aspect...why is Railgun ammo so expensive?
All you need is enough energy to charge the capacitors for the rails, and a chunk of metal to accelerate. As long as it is conductive, you can fire almost everything with it. And even if its not conductive you can still use plasma to accelerate it.

Jesus told me to equip Multi-Cannons and he was right. They own beach-front property in Wyoming. Thank you Jesus!

 

[Koen]

It's so stupid that a ship capable of taking a couple hundred tons of cargo can only take the same amount of ammo as a sidewinder.

I would gladly give up a cargo rack for an ammunition rack.

Until yesterday I had 4 multicanons on my Cobra, but fell out of ammo in a fight - I was at 100%, the enemy at 27%. I had started the fight with full ammo.

So I replaced the small MCs by beam lasers - and loving it, medium MCs + small beams is a great combo, everything melts so fast now and if I'm out of ammo I can still beam.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

Ammo capacity upgrades would make them a more attractive option. I'm not going to head back to a station every 10 mins to reload when hunting in a combat zone/res/nav beacon. With the laser/mc combo you can do a combat zone for 1.5 hours between reloading. I've never even tried 1/2 the weapons because the ammo limits are pathetic.

Either have it as a fixed upgrade like armor or have it take an internal slot. Put in a longer "restocking/refilling ammo" timer when we reach the standard ammo limit so we still can't spray and pray with cannons.

It's so stupid that a ship capable of taking a couple hundred tons of cargo can only take the same amount of ammo as a sidewinder.

still, would cost you a lot more credits to refill ammo, wouldnt it?
i have absolutely no idea if the values in the wiki are correct...but if they are, a cannon is more than 10x as expensive for the same damage.

 

[bassman]

but even there it seems that mutlicannons are stronger.

They arnt, beams and rails do way higher dps vs shields assuming 100% accuracy and no thermal restriction.
A skilled pilot can mitigate both these factors.

its not about the damage alone, as mentioned in this topic. the main problem is that its mostly not worth a shot (literaly). The bounty you get will maybe cover the price you had to spend in railgun/cannon shells, while a multicannon would mage a huge profit (seriously, imagine it like a guy who buys gatling ammo in an open crate - he doesnt care about a few bullets that fall out)

so the main problem is not about the usability of those weapons, its simply that its not worth buying the ammo for them.
as mentioned in this topic, those are mainly pvp weapons were you dont care anymore.

Thats exactly the point I was making also. Cost is IMO a broken mechanic for balancing since it has the effect of making weapons effectively PvP only. The other paradox of high ammo costs is that it makes them less viable for fighting professions than for say rich traders, IOW those most restricted in weapon choice are those who specialise in weapon use for earning money. This is just daft.

 

[Hawkmoon]

Rails and cannons have better armor penetration than multi cannons but at the moment there are no ships that can withstand multis, once we have the full range of ships I expect there to be some that that will have armor that can bounce multis and seeker missiles and then Rails and Torpedoes will come into there own, maybe for use against Thargoids as well. At the moment Rails are OP for hunting most ships and very hard to aim at the fast turners that we currently have so again with some larger ships we may see these heavy weapons coming into their own.

 

[Mephane]

so the price per damage is waaaay off.

Plus, 30 ammo for railguns (and fragment cannons) is just far too little, because all that flying back to rearm is time spent not earning more bounty claims, in other words, an extra opportunity cost on top of the already increased cost.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

They arnt, beams and rails do way higher dps vs shields assuming 100% accuracy and no thermal restriction.
A skilled pilot can mitigate both these factors.

it was not about VS shields and VS hull, it was about Cannons/Railguns are better against larger ships, what might be true when you can hit modules better. But still it would not justify the cost.
from a VS shield perspective, Gatlings were faster than Railguns and Cannons at shredding Anaconda´s...and they were cheaper. a lot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02jPpec4SMc&t=18m16s

Thats exactly the point I was making also. Cost is IMO a broken mechanic for balancing since it has the effect of making weapons effectively PvP only. The other paradox of high ammo costs is that it makes them less viable for fighting professions than for say rich traders, IOW those most restricted in weapon choice are those who specialise in weapon use for earning money. This is just daft.

exactly

Rails and cannons have better armor penetration than multi cannons but at the moment there are no ships that can withstand multis, once we have the full range of ships I expect there to be some that that will have armor that can bounce multis and seeker missiles and then Rails and Torpedoes will come into there own, maybe for use against Thargoids as well. At the moment Rails are OP for hunting most ships and very hard to aim at the fast turners that we currently have so again with some larger ships we may see these heavy weapons coming into their own.

that might be true.
if Multicannons could just "plink" a target, a cannon or railgun would be the better coice - if you can afford it...but with the current ammo prices...i dont think so