It is shameful for Frontier that you cannot create a European zoo!

[KönigDerKaffeebohnen]

I dont get the whole "brown bear + wolverine" thing.
Thats the easiest way to see that the person isnt an european.
For the brownbear, we got 2 allready and when you dont use subs yeah europe has a pretty limited roster but not more then other regions and with most of these animals the visual difference is minimal.
Wisent? I can see it
Old world other? Significantly different due to group size so i get it
Bear and beaver? No?

And for the wolverine, its pretty much limited to skandinavia and plays no role in wildparks or europe sections in zoos and often is just thrown in from people who just want the wolverine, which is fine but really not whats needed for europe.

Europes needs can be boiled down to ungulate diversity, birds, a climber and maybe some specific regional variety.
So case in point the wild boar, white stork, red squirrel and alpine marmot would fill pretty much all open niches and while id never be against more, saying that the EBB for example is more important is just mind boggling to me.
I get not wanting to use subs but we got 2 brown bears allready, brown bears arnt very morphologically different from each other anyways and we allready got 6 bears in the game. Meanwhile we got 0 squirrels, 0 storks and no pig that even somewhat resembles the wild boar, making that substitution not just much harder if not impossible but also adding something for people outside of europe who dont care if the brownbear has a european prefix or not.

 

[Aramar]

While I understand that sometimes we have doubts in considering a polar bear as a European animal since they only live in the remote island of Svalbard, I don't really understand why someone people say that the flamingo or porcupine don't really count as European animals because their range in Europe isn't too big, or that the wolverine is only Northern European (not Scandinavian!) so it's not a good representative for Europe.

However, reticulated giraffes or white rhinos also have a very limited distribution in Africa, or the giant panda or orangutan in Asia, or the cassowary in Asia and Oceania. No-one says those animals aren't good representatives for their continent because they only cover a small part of it.

And before someone says it's because those animals are endemic to only one continent and European fauna is usually found in 3 continents, that doesn't make them less European for not being endemic. The salt water crocodile is as Oceanian as Asian. The wolverine is as European as it is North American or Asian.

 

[KönigDerKaffeebohnen]

While I understand that sometimes we have doubts in considering a polar bear as a European animal since they only live in the remote island of Svalbard, I don't really understand why someone people say that the flamingo or porcupine don't really count as European animals because their range in Europe isn't too big, or that the wolverine is only Northern European (not Scandinavian!) so it's not a good representative for Europe.

However, reticulated giraffes or white rhinos also have a very limited distribution in Africa, or the giant panda or orangutan in Asia, or the cassowary in Asia and Oceania. No-one says those animals aren't good representatives for their continent because they only cover a small part of it.

And before someone says it's because those animals are endemic to only one continent and European fauna is usually found in 3 continents, that doesn't make them less European for not being endemic. The salt water crocodile is as Oceanian as Asian. The wolverine is as European as it is North American or Asian.

The point wasnt that the wolverine isnt european, but that its not what europe needs.
People talk about it because its popular and happens to live in northern europe, but ive never been to a zoo or wildpark and saw them featured as a distinctly european animal.
Meanwhile theres a ton of other animals that frequently show up and fill new more needed roles for the continent then the 7/8/9 carnivoran.
And even among carnivorans a marten or the european wildcat would easily be prefered options

 

[Marvinb]

While I understand that sometimes we have doubts in considering a polar bear as a European animal since they only live in the remote island of Svalbard, I don't really understand why someone people say that the flamingo or porcupine don't really count as European animals because their range in Europe isn't too big, or that the wolverine is only Northern European (not Scandinavian!) so it's not a good representative for Europe.

However, reticulated giraffes or white rhinos also have a very limited distribution in Africa, or the giant panda or orangutan in Asia, or the cassowary in Asia and Oceania. No-one says those animals aren't good representatives for their continent because they only cover a small part of it.

And before someone says it's because those animals are endemic to only one continent and European fauna is usually found in 3 continents, that doesn't make them less European for not being endemic. The salt water crocodile is as Oceanian as Asian. The wolverine is as European as it is North American or Asian.

Well the procupines are technically an invasive species, thats why it doesnt really count as a european animal.
On the flamingo: The difference between them and your examples is that while the other also have small ranges, they are exlusive to that area. Flamingos only accur in small areas in europe, but are widespread throughout africa and parts of asia. And these are the places you accosiate them with
Like you dont see the jaguar coming up when talking about USA animals despite a small part of their range bleeding into them

 

[zoomaster1994]

Let's see how Europe is doing for the key "zoo groups":

Carnivorans - Very solid, we have bear (different ssp but it literally looks the same come on) wolf, and lynx which is the big three as well as an aquatic option with the seal and smaller options with badger and fox. Could always do with more like wolverine or marten but hey it is pretty good.
Ungulates - 4/5 we have are deer... Wild boar and wisent would help a ton because of this. Yes Europe doesn't have many ungulate species but reducing it to 4 deer and a goat is a bit much.
Small Mammals - We have the porcupine but that hardly counts... Giving us the marmot or mountain hare would be a big boost.
Birds - There is the flamingo which similarly to the porcupine doesn't count much. This is where Europe is most lacking, the stork, capercaillie, waterfowl, pelican, etc would all be great and that is barely scratching the surface.

So really, Europe is very good for carnivorans and ok for ungulates but still heavily lacking in the small mammal and bird departments. Any other groups aren't really applicable to Europe unless we want to talk about exhibits which yes it would be nice to see European reptiles like a tortoise or adder.

I quite agree with you as with everyone else. Europe is pretty decently represented, only lacking species like the wild boar, wisent as ungulates and the wolverine as carnivore. Jackals could be seen as fun extras.
About the birds; most continents are underrepresented when it comes to birds, even Africa

 

[NZFanatic]

Well the procupines are technically an invasive species

It's a naturalised species. Invasive means it competes with and harms the natural ecology. At one point it would have been invasive, now thousands of years later it's native (but not endemic); naturalisation of an invasive species means that the local ecology adapts to its presence. This has happened to many species (including the dingo in Australia).

 

[Marvinb]

It's a naturalised species. Invasive means it competes with and harms the natural ecology. At one point it would have been invasive, now thousands of years later it's native (but not endemic); naturalisation of an invasive species means that the local ecology adapts to its presence. This has happened to many species (including the dingo in Australia).

To my knowledge there is no real agreed upon definition on when an alien species can be counted as native.
Also invasive species dont have to nessecarily be harmful or cause any mayor trouble

 

[Chuditch]

It's a naturalised species. Invasive means it competes with and harms the natural ecology. At one point it would have been invasive, now thousands of years later it's native (but not endemic); naturalisation of an invasive species means that the local ecology adapts to its presence. This has happened to many species (including the dingo in Australia).

Hystrix porcupines also occurred throughout much of Europe during the Pleistocene (maybe into the early Holocene), and although they aren't the same species it's possible that the naturalised crested porcupines fill a similar ecological role.

Also invasive species dont have to nessecarily be harmful or cause any mayor trouble

They do, introduced species and invasive species are terms often used interchangeably when their definitions are actually slightly different. An introduced species is an organism that establishes in an area where it did not exist previously thanks to humans, while an invasive species is an introduced species that is actively detrimental to the native ecosystem. So all invasive species are introduced, but not all introduced species are invasive.

What you said about there being no real agreement about when a species becomes "native" is true though, nativity is a man-made concept anyway.

 

[NZFanatic]

Also invasive species dont have to nessecarily be harmful or cause any mayor trouble

"An invasive or alien species is an introduced species to an environment that becomes overpopulated and harms its new environment." It's literally why they're called an 'inasive species'.

To my knowledge there is no real agreed upon definition on when an alien species can be counted as native.

"Naturalisation (or naturalization) is the ecological phenomenon through which a species, taxon, or population of exotic (as opposed to native) origin integrates into a given ecosystem, becoming capable of reproducing and growing in it, and proceeds to disseminate spontaneously."

Naturalised species can still be invasive, but generally speaking a distinction is made when discussing the impact on an environment.

 

[markun]

On the flamingo: The difference between them and your examples is that while the other also have small ranges, they are exlusive to that area. Flamingos only accur in small areas in europe, but are widespread throughout africa and parts of asia. And these are the places you accosiate them with

That’s incredibly subjective. The only place I have seen wild flamingos is Spain so I associate them very much with there.

 

[Marvinb]

"An invasive or alien species is an introduced species to an environment that becomes overpopulated and harms its new environment." It's literally why they're called an 'inasive species'.

"Naturalisation (or naturalization) is the ecological phenomenon through which a species, taxon, or population of exotic (as opposed to native) origin integrates into a given ecosystem, becoming capable of reproducing and growing in it, and proceeds to disseminate spontaneously."

Naturalised species can still be invasive, but generally speaking a distinction is made when discussing the impact on an environment.

Yeah didnt know there is a difference between invasive and introduced species in english, my bad.

 

[Marvinb]

That’s incredibly subjective. The only place I have seen wild flamingos is Spain so I associate them very much with there.

Yeah ofcourse. I meant generally speaking

 

[KönigDerKaffeebohnen]

Yeah didnt know there is a difference between invasive and introduced species in english, my bad.

For 2 examples, in the rhine valley of north Western germany there have been both racoons and rose ringed parakeets introduced atleast 50 years ago by accident.
The racoon raids the nest of local birds and eats small mammals, threatening their numbers (even if its nothing in comparison to house cats lol) so they are classed as invasives and are activly exterminated.
Meanwhile the parakeets mostly feed on hard nuts and seeds that are not contested in meaningfull way by local birds and small mammals, while prefering to rest in groups in large tree, only rivaling for shelter somewhat with groups of corvids and nest in hollowed out trees, again rather uncontested by local wild life.
The parakeet found an open niche to inhabit without putting meaningfull pressure on native species, while the racoon does, making one harmfull and invasive and the other a new and welcome addition to the local biodiversity

 

[Laura_91]

From the UK and I cant remember going to a zoo that has some of the European animals we have in game. Only ones I can think of are the ones on grounds of stately homes that have deer. Obviously there's also the possibility ive passed by them as I live in the countryside and have thought I've seen them in the wild.

So im assuming you mean a zoo of European animals not so much a typical European zoo.

 

[SivatheriumGuy]

I don't know much about European zoos, but you gotta consider the fact that, worldwide, how many zoos actually have a dedicated European section?

Not as many as they should have, I always wish that more zoos had interesting European zones because every time one is done as it should be done it's usually incredibly cool (GaiaZoo, Zagreb Zoo, the entirety of AlpenZoo Innsbruck,...).
Coming back to the thread, I'm the first that wants more European fauna in the game (I'm pretty sure I'm the wisent biggest defender and I'd love to see the wild boar at some point) but ever since the Europe Pack we have been getting pretty cool additions!

 

[markun]

From the UK and I cant remember going to a zoo that has some of the European animals we have in game. Only ones I can think of are the ones on grounds of stately homes that have deer. Obviously there's also the possibility ive passed by them as I live in the countryside and have thought I've seen them in the wild.

So im assuming you mean a zoo of European animals not so much a typical European zoo.

To quote a post I made a couple of years ago in another thread:

Europe, including the UK is full of zoos with animals like Eurasian and Iberian lynx, wild boar, wisent, various deer species including moose/elk and more. They are found in all kinds of zoos from city zoos like Amsterdam to specialised collections in the Alps or Scandinavia.

In the UK alone there are around 28 zoos with lynx and 28 with fallow deer - that’s not counting deer parks or stately homes with just deer in their grounds. The UK also has zoos specialising in European/British wildlife like the British Wildlife Centre in Surrey, Wildwood in Kent and the New Forest Wildlife Park. Then there is the amazing Highland Wildlife Park with wolverine, Eurasian elk, red deer, Finnish forest reindeer, grey wolf, wisent, lynx, Arctic fox and many more species from colder parts of Asia.

 

[wanderoo]

Just since the question of ungulates has arisen a few times: always bears reminding that Europe has four deer when the Indian subcontinent, temperate East Asia, and even the otherwise well-represented SE Asia have zero. This is wild when compared to actual cervid diversity - a single national park in India (Dudhwa) has as many deer species as the whole of Europe.

This compounds the existing problem of India not having a single antelope. Similarly, the other antelope-rich region outside Africa (West/Central Asia) also lacks an antelope.

Moreover, Europe has a caprid when the absolute GOAT region for goats (Himalayas, Tibet and East-Central Asia) famously have zero. Hopefully to be redeemed soon.

All this to say that I think Europe has it good when it comes to ungulates. Wild boar is an addition that would benefit all of Eurasia but the much more ungulate-rich regions of the Eurasian landmass (Indian subcontinent and Tibetan Plateau/China) need love more.

https://biodiversitymapping.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Mammals_Cetartiodactyla.jpg

 

[Eletan888]

I am American, but do zoos in Europe even have European sections? I don't think I've ever seen one. I know not everyone builds realistically and may just want to build an exhibit with only European animals. I think that this group of players is small, and a second DLC devoted to Europe would probably perform fairly poorly.

 

[Marvinb]

I am American, but do zoos in Europe even have European sections? I don't think I've ever seen one. I know not everyone builds realistically and may just want to build an exhibit with only European animals. I think that this group of players is small, and a second DLC devoted to Europe would probably perform fairly poorly.

There are few dedicated european sections at european zoos, but youll definetly find european animals in basicly every zoo. Its mostly the more "exciting" megafauna like bears, wolves and lynx, but also deers, and smaller animals. But we also have ALOT of wildparks that cover the local animal niche, so "true zoos" focus more on the exotic stuff.
Dont see any reason why a second european dlc should do worse than other revisit dlcs tho

 

[Aramar]

I am American, but do zoos in Europe even have European sections? I don't think I've ever seen one.

Some have. For example, I know of Madrid Zoo, Paris zoo, Barcelona Zoo, Skansen (Stockholm), Terra Natura Benidorm, Helsinki Zoo, Planckendael Zoo...