It's been a while, and I'm getting my butt kicked...

[EinsteinAndAGun]

...by NPCs.

So I've been out of this game for quite a while, and after recently coming back, I decided to take my combat fitted vulture out to do some bounty hunting. I was unable to get a single kill for quite a while and died multiple times. This has NEVER happened to me before. Cobras out-tanking me, Anacondas out-running and out-maneuvering me, and Clippers just laughing in my face, then proceeding to blow me up before I can even escape.

What happened? Did the AI get an enormous buff? I'm sure I'm a bit rusty, but some of this isn't even a skill thing; I didn't think it was even possible for an Anaconda to maintain front-facing against an A-class thruster Vulture, far less being actually faster in a straight line than a 4 pips full boost Vulture.

Now it's extremely difficult to take on even a Cobra at Deadly or above, and larger ships like pythons or clippers are basically impossible to take on alone.

Is the Vulture even a good choice in combat anymore? It still has its well-known power management problems, but it's always been tanky for me and usually able to out-maneuver the bigger ships and stay on their tail. Now it just gets wrecked. Should I just go for a straight up heavy ship to out-tank the AI, since it seems guaranteed that they'll be able to get their nose pointed at me and shoot, no matter how well I maneuver?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated,

 

[IceFire122]

Please clarify a while, as the AI has received some updates in the last patch and major upgrades some time ago.

The Vulture is still a good bounty hunting ship, but has some limits.

Tool:
Is your Vulture engineered? Weapons 2x large lasers? Did you use the new military slot for extra armor or module protection?

Craft/are you using:
-Blue Zone Turning?
-Lateral trusting to get out of AI firing cones?
-Boosting to get behind an AI (which is flying backwards)?

Others might ask you for video to analyze your combat behavior before giving tips.

 

[Aute]

AI was buffed at 2.1, then nerfed back to oblivion later, not sure how long you haven't been playing? I guess it is still slightly stronger now than pre 2.0.

Also, on haz res sites and combat zones they have better outfitting, if you haven't played for a long time, makes sense to practice a bit in some easier places.

Nothing wrong with Vulture for combat, you can check out engineers and get some great updates, properly engineered it wont have any power issues anymore, will boost around 500 m/s and will have 20+ ly jump range. Though no way npc conda can outrun default vulture, you might have messed up something on that part.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

If you fight regularly against NPCs of rank Dangerous or higher you will want to engineer your ship as those NPCs are engineered (deadly and elite always).

 

[Achilles7]

Yep they received a buff for 2.3 & yep the Vulture is still a great choice, especially engineered (better in fact since the extra military slot was added). I killed 108 ships in a CZ in one sitting using a fixed pulse - bi weave - no SCB Vulture in one sitting yesterday!

The new NPCs are probably better than most cmdrs at flying now & will pitch while reversing which means you have to alter the plane of attack to catch them - this is why it appears that they are reversing so fast...but their weaknesses are lack of firepower & inability to adapt when something isn't working ie I basically circle strafed a rail & fixed beam deadly FAS, keeping on it's yaw axis while it continued to try & out-pitch me, hardly firing because I stayed out of it's line of fire...& continued to do that until it died!

Use your pip management more effectively - under fire always put pips to sys...always...even if you cannot fire for a few secs while getting in position. Secondly, use the yaw axis weakness to pitch on...this will work for any ship except Eagles/Sideys. Thirdly have a plan B, whether it means reversing (creating a face tank scenario...so obviously make sure you have the ship with the greater firepower here ) or boost-thrust manoeuvring (FA OFF use advantageous, but not mandatory) to evade sustained fire & control your position against the more manoeuvrable ships.

...or get a modded Cutter/Corvette et al & eat some pizza, watch Netflix, go for bathroom breaks etc in the middle of a fight...for all the 'adrenalin pumping excitement' of knowing your ship can tank all day with impunity - yeah I know, some people actually do this!

 

[IceFire122]

If you fight regularly against NPCs of rank Dangerous or higher you will want to engineer your ship as those NPCs are engineered (deadly and elite always).

Are you sure about the second part?
I thought, that all mods were removed form the AI to balance them. The issue was, that all high level AI had mods, but the players did not yet have them at that time (engineering takes time).
I have not read any patch notes about giving AI the mods back. <-This makes the AI even more scary for some, seeing what they can do with stock equipment.

On the other hand, I completely agree with the first half: Engineering your own ship, albeit taking time, is totally worth it.

 

[Dakron Nova]

You're also just a bit rusty, my advice would be to jump into an inexpensive Viper and shake off some of the cobwebs by spending some time at a Nav Beacon or Res Site. Focus on what the NPCs are doing differently. Try to keep side on to your mark and practice yawing around.

Noticed that in 2.3 they are keeping their distance a lot more so try to stay out of their 12 oclock

I had the same problem returning to combat after a break from it, its surprising how rusty you get.

 

[IceFire122]

Noticed that in 2.3 they are keeping their distance a lot more so try to stay out of their 12 oclock

Right, that was one of the 2.3 changes. I have not yet tried a medium/small ship vs. the 2.3 AI. Reports remind me of the earlier 2.1 beta AI, where it ran 100% of the time, when the shields dropped. Getting a kill took quite some time, or high DPS firepower.

 

[Dakron Nova]

Right, that was one of the 2.3 changes. I have not yet tried a medium/small ship vs. the 2.3 AI. Reports remind me of the earlier 2.1 beta AI, where it ran 100% of the time, when the shields dropped. Getting a kill took quite some time, or high DPS firepower.

Yup, instead of initiating combat straight away now I don't fire until behind, then I'm also much more careful on PIP management to the engines in an attempt to stay behind once they attempt to boost and turn away. Current strategy seems to try to keep behind and keep them in a turning close engagement to prevent them getting to much distance unless you are flying a tank. Make sure you have enough in the tank for a full boost to get position in case anything unexpected happens.

 

[IceFire122]

Yup, instead of initiating combat straight away now I don't fire until behind, then I'm also much more careful on PIP management to the engines in an attempt to stay behind once they attempt to boost and turn away. Current strategy seems to try to keep behind and keep them in a turning close engagement to prevent them getting to much distance unless you are flying a tank. Make sure you have enough in the tank for a full boost to get position in case anything unexpected happens.

Sounds like fun and I am out exploring to test the Orca.

 

[SpeakerToAliens]

1) they are turning hard using boost, so they're harder to hit,
2) they try to get behind you, so they're out of your main weapon's arcs,
3) they try to get out of weapons range while their shields recharge,
4) when using fixed weapons they seem to have better ship-aiming capability than I do with my joystick - I don't think they're cheating as such, I just think their ships are effectively thought-controlled with no lag,
5) they use module targeting now,
6) they use SCBs,
7) they use power settings,
8) they use missiles (and missiles have been de-nerfed). I now fit Point Defence to my ships, which I never needed before.
9) the very high rated ones have some Engineered modules (people disagree on this, but my experience says they do).
10) they boost away, FA-Off, turn 180 and then fire at you,
11) they stop firing gimbals/turrets when you use chaff,
12) they use chaff and PDs against your missiles,

I do not doubt that Sarah and her team have spent many hours watching CMDR v CMDR videos on youtube, while taking detailed notes. This is only part of the result. They have more up their sleeves (and there are Thargoids out there somewhere).

What can you do?
Don't fly in a straight line. You'll die. Use rolls, turns, thrusters, boost, FA-Off all at the same time when running for your life!
Fit PDs.
Learn to do what they do.

As their combat rating increases, so do their tactics. As your combat rating increases the average combat rating of the NPCs you face will increase. If you gained a high combat rating against the easy AIs you need to ask FDev to lower it a few levels for you. They will if you ask nicely.

That doesn't mean you'll never face an Elite NPC until you're Elite, it does mean there are going to be times when your only option is to flee!

 

[Morbad]

4) when using fixed weapons they seem to have better ship-aiming capability than I do with my joystick - I don't think they're cheating as such, I just think their ships are effectively thought-controlled with no lag,
5) they use module targeting now,
10) they boost away, FA-Off, turn 180 and then fire at you,

Higher rank ones have good aim, but it's not perfect and many CMDRs can out do them.

They don't deliberately target modules. They used to, at some point, but this was a long time ago.

They have never used FA Off and still don't. They just have good command over their thrusters.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Are you sure about the second part?
I thought, that all mods were removed form the AI to balance them.…

I'm very sure.
Modifications were never completely removed from NPCs, the only thing that got removed were weapon mods (and special effects) as they caused a serious bug.

It's been mentioned a few times in patch notes that Deadly and Elite always have mods (non weapon mods).

Deadly and Elite NPCs usually have modded thrusters (as the OP noticed).

To the OP: NPCs now love to circle strafe and make reverse maneuvers and have really good controls of PIPs.

 

[Mike Reacher]

1) they are turning hard using boost, so they're harder to hit,
2) they try to get behind you, so they're out of your main weapon's arcs,
3) they try to get out of weapons range while their shields recharge,
4) when using fixed weapons they seem to have better ship-aiming capability than I do with my joystick - I don't think they're cheating as such, I just think their ships are effectively thought-controlled with no lag,
5) they use module targeting now,
6) they use SCBs,
7) they use power settings,
8) they use missiles (and missiles have been de-nerfed). I now fit Point Defence to my ships, which I never needed before.
9) the very high rated ones have some Engineered modules (people disagree on this, but my experience says they do).
10) they boost away, FA-Off, turn 180 and then fire at you,
11) they stop firing gimbals/turrets when you use chaff,
12) they use chaff and PDs against your missiles,

All of the above. Last night I had about 5 NPC Anacondas attack me. Luckily only one killed me.
They all had engineered stuff. I don't know how shield recovery modules work, but one of the NPCs had a 1 second full shield after getting down to 1 ring. We did kill it, the 4 feds and me. Took a while, and the feds were not in rubbish ships.
My engineered shields have a slow recharge rate which can be a problem. Particularly as all the Anacondas use heat attacks. They also spin on sixpence. I did most damage to them when they tried to turn away and I nosed against their belly all guns blazing. Thankfully the feds helped a lot.
Catching the other interdicters that used small ships was a headache. They reverse away from me to recover and their reverse is faster than my boost.
So yeah, elite master and others are using fairly high engineered ships.

 

[Mechanist]

I didn't think it was even possible for an Anaconda to maintain front-facing against an A-class thruster Vulture, far less being actually faster in a straight line than a 4 pips full boost Vulture.

FD should fix this.

Yesterday I went to a CZ with my Courier for some fun (did I mention that it's super fancy grindy engineered? ) ... and was outrunned by a python and a Dropship and had an Anaconda front-facing me for several minutes (he was competent by the way).
They still got their beating in the end but the battle didn't feel right.

 

[Morbad]

They all had engineered stuff. I don't know how shield recovery modules work, but one of the NPCs had a 1 second full shield after getting down to 1 ring.

NPCs have used SCBs since before the game went live, they just use them more wisely now.

Particularly as all the Anacondas use heat attacks. They also spin on sixpence. I did most damage to them when they tried to turn away and I nosed against their belly all guns blazing. Thankfully the feds helped a lot.
Catching the other interdicters that used small ships was a headache. They reverse away from me to recover and their reverse is faster than my boost.
So yeah, elite master and others are using fairly high engineered ships.

Master and Dangerous rank NPCs rarely have any modifications of note. Even Deadly and Elite NPCs generally have fairly sparse mods, but they do have them. None of them have special effects.

The 'heat attacks' you encountered are a stock property of all PA and is of completely trivial magnitude.

FD should fix this.

There is nothing broken here.

He's wrong about the Anaconda's straight line speed, and anyone with decent thruster control piloting an Anaconda has always been able to track an unengineered Vulture with a mediocre pilot at it's controls.

 

[clivewil]

The Vulture is still a good bounty hunting ship, but has some limits.

Is your Vulture engineered? Weapons 2x large lasers? Did you use the new military slot for extra armor or module protection?

+1 for engineering the Vulture, mine were left alone for a while after the a.i. update as they didn't fare very well against the new NPCs - but after engineering mine, they now are my favourite combat ship again. 20mW power plant, one gimbal C2 beam, one gimbal C2 pulse, both engineered with Efficient grade 3 and 4, Dirty Drive grade 5. a couple of my Vults run A5 SCBs and a couple run A4 - an A5 will fill a shield from empty to completely full but will give you from 5 - 15% module damage from the heat. an A4 is nicer to the modules but only fills about 2 rings, i think

the old ai used to fight more of a turning fight, whereas the new ai prefers to joust with you, i.e. rush head on and ram if possible, pass by and then quickly turn 180 and repeat from the opposite direction

you will try to fill your Wep Cap during the turns and flick 2 pips back to Sys as you're heading towards him (and being hit by him) - the Vulture needs no pips to Eng, so power management is as simple as just swapping 2 pips between Sys and Wep, as described above

the Vulture has great weapons for such a small ship, but they don't hold a candle to those of e.g. an Anaconda or Corvette. your strength is that you are hard to hit, avoiding his fire while picking away at him little by little. (the corkscrew/barrel-roll is still a useful way to avoid his turret fire)

you are a rapier, not a broadsword. give him 'the death of a thousand cuts' and leave the full-frontal barrages to the bigger ships. i mention this because under the old ai, the Vulture could tank, just sit there firing away until the NPC was dead. no more tank. mosquito now.

 

[IceFire122]

I'm very sure.

In that case, I stand corrected.

About the other points mentioned above, I think some might be incorrect:
4) when using fixed weapons they seem to have better ship-aiming capability than I do with my joystick
-->They have good aim, but it was reduced somewhat to make them less deadly with (long range) rail shots).

5) they use module targeting now,
-->Incorrect, according to MoM. But e.g. rails pass through the whole ship, damaging modules along the way. Whatever module is close to your ships center (could be the power plant), gets damaged easily.

10) they boost away, FA-Off, turn 180 and then fire at you,
-->AI does not use FA off. They are good enough with lateral thrusting, that they don't need AI off.

 

[Siranui]

Any advice would be greatly appreciated,

Can you fill in some gaps for us and we can probably help?

What was the skill level of your foes?
How long have you been out of the game for? NPCs received a major boost last May-ish.
What is your loadout and are you engineered?
Were you running 4 pips to shields were under fire, or using a different tactic?

Vultures are still good, but larger well piloted ships can still wear you down, and large ships have had a boost.
If you tune the PP, your power issues will be gone.

Are you sure about the second part?

Yes. Higher ranked NPCs have an increasing chance of progressively better engineered items and ships.

 

[tafkabb]

FD should fix this.

Yesterday I went to a CZ with my Courier for some fun (did I mention that it's super fancy grindy engineered? ) ... and was outrunned by a python and a Dropship and had an Anaconda front-facing me for several minutes (he was competent by the way).
They still got their beating in the end but the battle didn't feel right.

That'll be because their tactics have improved. Change is a good thing; combat was way too easy at the end of 2.2. I could take on any ship of any rank in my Courier and never come close to losing it. The reason I was even flying a Courier was to introduce some sort of challenge to combat