Ive come to a realislation about combat.... there is no risk

[B33 ENN]

Well, I tried out an SCB. Seems useful when you're in a corner, like for emergencies, particularly against a group or a big ship. Not something I'll be hitting all the time though.

Noticed the in-game comparison windows only show them having maximum ammo of 1, even though the ones I tried have 4 and 5.

My problem with SCB is they use power from your ship's power plant. Why would charged cells need to use your ship's power? They are batteries after all. You're getting penalized by the cost of the cell, the cost of the reload, the cost of the internal slot (understandable) and the cost of power usage to your reactor. It doesn't make sense to me. ...If anything, a cell bank should reduce the amount of power your plant is losing, not increase it. If the argument is that the cell bank has to remain charged, then what's the point of a reload? Why can't your ship just recharge your cell banks the way it does your shields? It's using the power.

Too many penalties requiring too much grinding, to the point where nonsensical things are being implemented just for the sake of stretching out the time in game to achieve a personal goal.

That ocurred to me as well. Lots of inconsistencies like that in the design of these accessories. The Kill Warrant Scanner is my personal bugbear. It does the same thing as the standard scanner, just deeper, but seems to have limited range and can only be manually operated, rather than more logically just augmenting the functionality of the standard one.

 

[Kyuubey]

Personally I think you're looking at the problem all wrong. The reason why everyone uses shield cells and shield boosters is because we have no choice. Armor is useless and does nothing to protect the power plant. PvP boils down to take down shields, target power plant and that's it. Why target any other module when one outright kills the player. Shield cell spam is just the by product of a poorly designed system. Here's what I would do to fix the situation and pvp in general.

- Remove the power plant as a target.
The only way to kill a target is to bring the hull to 0%

- Make armor meaningful and provide some protection for modules.

- Destroying a module should cripple a ship making it easier to take down, not outright destroy it.
For example destroying the enemy ships power distributor reduces the number of pips from 6 to 2. Taking out the thrusters reduces the ships speed and maneuverability. Destroying the ftl drive greatly increase the charging time and reduces the jump distance. A ship with all modules destroyed should still be able to limp away from a fight as long as their hull remains above 0%. A player can still die from a breached canopy.

- Make shield cells an actual consumable.
For example a 6A shield cell costs 3.5 mil credits and has 6 charges. Once all the charges are spent the module ejects from your ship like a spent heat sink and you would need to buy the module again. Also any charges spent on a shield cell do not recharge.

-Thermal weapons deal more damage to shields and even less to hull.

-Kinetic weapons deal more damage to hull and less to shields.

- Increase the effectiveness of mass lock.
Larger ships should mass lock smaller ships more effectively based on the difference in size.

- More ammo for kinetic weapons either based on ship size or offer a internal module that stores ammo.
Kinetic weapons need some love. How is it a sidewinder can hold 2 torpedos per weapon slot, yet an anaconda can hold only 1 more?


The bottom line is removing or limiting shield cells does nothing to fix the real underlying problem and that is everything revolves around shields. Shield cells, shield boosters, what weapons take down shields the fastest. This has to change.

 

[Oblivious]

...The Kill Warrant Scanner is my personal bugbear. It does the same thing as the standard scanner, just deeper, but seems to have limited range and can only be manually operated, rather than more logically just augmenting the functionality of the standard one.

Thanks for confirming that. I read or saw in a video somewhere that you can get higher bounties with the KWS and I've been meaning to check it out, but for some reason it was in my head that it requires manual operation, so I haven't looked into it yet.

 

[B33 ENN]

Thanks for confirming that. I read or saw in a video somewhere that you can get higher bounties with the KWS and I've been meaning to check it out, but for some reason it was in my head that it requires manual operation, so I haven't looked into it yet.

Yeah, it goes in one of your Utility slots, and you have to link it to a fire group and aim at the ship you want to scan, constantly depressing the button with him in view for ten seconds once you're within its range.

It's just another "busy work" mechanic in my opinion, because you now have two scanners. Then one in the bottom left that tells you he's Wanted or not, and then this one to add more value from bounties in outside systems.

 

[Bazorlag]

Thanks for confirming that. I read or saw in a video somewhere that you can get higher bounties with the KWS and I've been meaning to check it out, but for some reason it was in my head that it requires manual operation, so I haven't looked into it yet.

I really dislike that particular thing... Doing enough of scanning could probably trigger RSI episode since you have to keep your finger in strained position 10 second every time you want to use it. I would definitely want to see it be made a toggle option that would enable bounty scanning of regular lock and scan routine instead and let the player focus on flying as usual.

 

[CorruptedSoul]

Lol Claims there is no risk in a online multiplayer pvp game then use a 1v1 example as proof.

 

[althaz]

I think shield boosters should be completely redone or removed, the game is balanced without them, its unnecessary to add them and it makes some fights a battle of who has the most shield cells.

I don't think shield boosters are any sort of problem at all. On the other hand, shield cell batteries are pretty lame. Whoever has the most wins. Shield boosters are a balancing act in most good combat ships (that I've flown at least, due to them all being power-starved).

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My problem with SCB is they use power from your ship's power plant. Why would charged cells need to use your ship's power? They are batteries after all. You're getting penalized by the cost of the cell, the cost of the reload, the cost of the internal slot (understandable) and the cost of power usage to your reactor. It doesn't make sense to me. My vehicles don't require more power if I add a second battery. They require less from the initial one. If anything, a cell bank should reduce the amount of power your plant is losing, not increase it. If the argument is that the cell bank has to remain charged, then what's the point of a reload? Why can't your ship just recharge your cell banks the way it does your shields? It's using the power.

Too many penalties requiring too much grinding, to the point where nonsensical things are being implemented just for the sake of stretching out the time in game to achieve a personal goal.

SCBs are already horribly (or delightfully, because my ship has plenty ) overpowered. If they didn't need power they'd be even stronger. As it is a lot of players simply retrace hardpoints, fire them off then pull their weapons back up.

 

[lonewarrior]

Lol Claims there is no risk in a online multiplayer pvp game then use a 1v1 example as proof.

Lol at the guy who didn't read past the first few paragraphs and thinks that just because a game includes PvP elements that makes it a PvP game, think you will find the PvE parts far outweigh the PvP

 

[Maxwellou]

I agree with OP for the most part. Don't like the ability to buy "shields in a can" which is what SCB's are essentially. Shield boosters aren't as bad because they don't give as much "bang for your buck" and you do sacrifice hardpoints to use them.

Also, although I am the recent owner of a nice shiny vulture, that ship is borderline OP. It's one of the most manueverable ships yet can mount heavy weapons. Like a Ninja with a Bazooka.

Even with class 3 gimballed pulses, this thing owns nearly anything it comes in contact with save another vulture. And if that's not bad enough, it has nearly capital ship class shields.

So we have a Ninja with a Bazooka in Plate Mail armor that has no loss of agility. How is that possible.

If this ship were truly "balanced" it would either only be able to fit small hardpoints (an armored turtle that can only shoot spitballs) or carry a huge stick with paper thin shields.

I should not be able to drop into a RES or USS and experience a Conda or Python with no fear of death whatsoever.

Any ship that powerful is just asking to be Nerfed, and rightfully so. I better enjoy it while it lasts.

Said it a lot. Vulture needs a tweak.
Don't forget that it only costs 5M.

EDIT: Concerning SCBs and shield boosters... I actually think shield boosters are a great addition to the game and pretty well balanced. The real problem are SCBs !
When you're about to down the shield of a player and suddenly they all goes at nearly 100% again... In your mind it's just "Pffffff. Ok.".
SCBs should be reworked.

In the FdL, class 4 SCB with a Class 5 shield (with 2xA Shield boosters) only replenish your shield by ~1 ring, why ? Because otherwise, FDL would be OP in combat. As it actually stands, it gives a chance to other players to down the shields of the FDL and... I am thrilled by this !
Now, when I'm in a situation when I'm absolutely craving for just one ring of my shields, I know that this fight is dangerous to me, I love it !
It's more like having a "5-10 seconds of invulnerability" than "INSTA LIFE ! BOOM !"

EDIT + : Also, the FDL, with only one class 5 compartment (shields there), forces you to take shields boosters in order to compete with other ships that can go with one or two SCBs modules that are the same class as their shields (wich is obviously more efficient). Those ships should not be able to take Shield Boosters and SCBs (since with the FDL SCBs aren't that powerful, otherwise it shouldn't be able to do so too) at the same time. I find it really more interesting for us to have to choose beetween: "Mmmmm, more shields or have a quick recharge button ?".

Another idea: How about making the SCBs a module that helps the regen time of your shields ? Not by much, but for example, with my FDL and without the shield boosters, it takes maybe 2-3 minutes for the shields to go back online (let's say 3, for this example). How about making the SCBs the same way as boosters (it would now use a utility mount) so that one CxE would down the regen time by, let's say 5%... All the way to CxA wich would be around 25% ?
I find it pretty interesting and not too OP !
With 3 minutes of regen time you go down to 2 minutes and 15 seconds ! Much less frustrating and it still lets a large window for other to shoot you in your shiny FDL
This idea is really more interesting for big ships, as the little ones have little shields wich requires much less time to regen.

 

[RabidRich]

Maxwellou, I think you need to research shield values and scb values. FDL doesn't have weak scb, it just has very high pool of shield Mj(hitpoints).

 

[Muzz UK]

Shield Cells just make the bigger ships even stronger, because they can equip so many of them.

My issue is that small ships like Vipers and Eagles should be able to take out big ships if a player is more skilled than the guy in the Python or Anaconda. Because of shield cells this isn't possible. I watched a really skilled Youtuber fight an Anaconda for 15 minutes and only got his hull to 99% before he had to run purely because of shield cells. Small ships should be just as viable in combat but they really aren't unless the guy in the big ship is terrible at games. An average player in a big ship will hardly ever lose to a small ship person unless out numbered. I'd be happy with they were removed along with gimbled weapons. PURE SKILL COMBAT PLEASE!

 

[NeoTron]

Shield cells were always part of the design. It's something to put in those large internal slots in highend ships (rather than just running empty). It's also a strong requirement for being able to get a reasonable gaming pace in larger ships (due to no scaling of shield recharge rates, and 1.3 removing "shields on supercruise").

In either case, 1.3 adds significantly harder AI. Also have you ever gone into a strong signal source with 3 Anaconda's or 7 vultures? Those are hard, even in a beefy Anaconda or Python full with shield cells. Especially Python - you really have to be on top of it. The Vulture one I simply can't do even in a 300M Anaconda.

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My issue is that small ships like Vipers and Eagles should be able to take out big ships if a player is more skilled than the guy in the Python or Anaconda.

One on one, Viper and Eagle should always lose against an Anaconda, Python or FDL, no exception (or be able to run away). Against a Vulture, you could win. That's how it's designed and how it should be. What you're essentially stating is you should be able to kill a tank with a pistol before it kills you.

If you want a purely skill based PvP game, go play an FPS or Guild Wars sPVP. They are designed to work like that. Elite is not.

 

[CorruptedSoul]

Lol at the guy who didn't read past the first few paragraphs and thinks that just because a game includes PvP elements that makes it a PvP game, think you will find the PvE parts far outweigh the PvP

The game has pvp but is not a pvp game?... Your entire post is about pvp. Did i say it was exclusively a pvp game? No. I read your entire post I'm not sure what gave you the idea i didn't. Your post is about balance but you give a example of how pvp is not balanced around 1v1 in a game that not only supports squads but rewards people for grouping up. A python shields drop very fast while being focused by more then one person, no matter how many SCBs it has.

 

[Deathwatch]

Shield cells were always part of the design. It's something to put in those large internal slots in highend ships (rather than just running empty). It's also a strong requirement for being able to get a reasonable gaming pace in larger ships (due to no scaling of shield recharge rates, and 1.3 removing "shields on supercruise").

In either case, 1.3 adds significantly harder AI. Also have you ever gone into a strong signal source with 3 Anaconda's or 7 vultures? Those are hard, even in a beefy Anaconda or Python full with shield cells. Especially Python - you really have to be on top of it. The Vulture one I simply can't do even in a 300M Anaconda.

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One on one, Viper and Eagle should always lose against an Anaconda, Python or FDL, no exception (or be able to run away). Against a Vulture, you could win. That's how it's designed and how it should be. What you're essentially stating is you should be able to kill a tank with a pistol before it kills you.

If you want a purely skill based PvP game, go play an FPS or Guild Wars sPVP. They are designed to work like that. Elite is not.

You forget those are dedicated combat ships, FDL should be the only example which should always win, the others are multipurpose, a combat ship is designed about being able to win a fight, those nippy fighters make up the bulk of an army and should be fast enough with a skilled pilot to stay out of weapon arcs.

 

[lonewarrior]

.. Your entire post is about pvp.

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Wrong, you didn't read it at all:
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Ive come to a realisation about combat, and not just the PvP part
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Even in PvE, I can sit in a conflict zone or fight NPCs without risk at all, they are useless against me
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The difficulty needs to be increased, there is no dangerous in Elite right now

 

[CorruptedSoul]

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Wrong, you didn't read it at all:
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Oh you think you have everything wrapped up in a nice little package with your evidence and quotes... ok so maybe i missed that part. Pve is too easy no argument from me but the rest still stands.

 

[Maxwellou]

Maxwellou, I think you need to research shield values and scb values. FDL doesn't have weak scb, it just has very high pool of shield Mj(hitpoints).

I know, but it is absolutely irrelevant in a high conflict zone with 10 players shooting at you.
It is against a single opponent though.