Kill the PVP Rebuy

[Sylveria]

Losing current missions, goods, data travel distance is already enough consequence.

ROFLMAO

As if.

I agree with the OP, the griefers will find away around any C&P system >watch out for unshielded A rated medium ships with 1% hull in Res Sites jumping in front of your lasers, is the obvious one under the current system.

The problem of using crime and punishment systems is, well there is crime and there is punishment for the vast majority of us, it works great. For the Griefer, they just have to work out if punishment is best taken by themselves or best taken as the attack by the vivtim. Their soul aim is to ruin others enjoyment, so their basic objective is to use any mechanics, crime and punishment the obvious to maximise destroying other people's fun. Suicide Eagles was a meta a few versions ago, to transfer the punishment to the victim. Lets see what they come up with this time.

I agree on removal this time though - well at the moment, they may come up with nough!.

Simon

Moves... and counter-moves. Sure.

But just as locks don't stop someone who's willing to get in- you don't just "avoid putting locks on everything" because there's someone out there willing to put forward effort. Keeping "honest people honest", and all that. If you think that sort of philosophy works, walk into a bank sometime and tell them they don't need vaults because there's always someone willing to rob them. (Be careful that you don't get blistered with the laughter coming your way afterward!)

Deterrence is necessary, and so are consequences. The whole point of it is to make criminals think and be more strategic in action.

Although I seriously doubt it will truly have the intended effect, it's a step in the right direction in acknowledging there's a problem that needs resolution.

 

[CMDR Dumbfries]

Eliminating rebuys for PvP encounters would be the easiest way to eliminate all the hand wringing and whining about crime&punishment which is exactly the reason why they won't do it.

 

[Valorin]

I am no PvPer at all, and for me people shooting weaker ships are not even part of the game, but I really don't think killing off rebuy when shot by another player would solve anything. It would touch too many things in the game not ganker related, and as long as there are other modes than Open it's totally fine the way it will be in 3.0.

But I also would like a jerk-safe Open and would go for a no-pvp-button. Different radar symbol perhaps, not interdictable, aaand when it comes to what will happen when you're in an instance with other players and someone shoots you, we have another problem here. But I'd _love_ that option. I want community, I want to meet people. I even would love some "honest" piracy. I just don't want to share a game with idiots with itchy triggerfinger. I am too old for Kindergarten games.

It's problematic to balance PvP stuff for Open and I pity Ddev a bit for having to deal with that.

 

[Chongo]

Only thing FD should do is to reduce rebuy in one dedicated PvP Hub system that is locked in anarchy. Rebuy is part of the normal game and should remain.

...then put two stations 25 km from each other on either end of an asteroid belt that is 20km thick in said system.

 

[Valorin]

Only thing FD should do is to reduce rebuy in one dedicated PvP Hub system that is locked in anarchy. Rebuy is part of the normal game and should remain.

...then put two stations 25 km from each other on either end of an asteroid belt that is 20km thick in said system.

That would look very artifcial and wouldn't, in any way, fit in the game. The artificial PvP areas we have in rpgmmos really have to place in Elite.
Hm. But if PvP would _only_ be allowed there... Deal.

 

[lenna]

WRT the Griefer argument, any of those kinds of individuals can be and should be reported by players targeted by them. FD will need to be careful how they deal with such people as detection measures need to be kept in-house in order to minimise the chances of the guilty trying to bypass those measures. Patterns of behaviour are discernible though via various passive means and such people can only be effectively dealt with via direct intervention by the developers or appointed moderating party.

ED is not a PvP centric game full-stop, so I think those trying to push the PvP agenda should consider that before trying to rail road the game down a PvP centric road. If anything the progression of GW1 to GW2 has proven to me that too much focus on the PvP and large-scale-combat crowds ruins games that have mixed elements.

 

[Chaparral]

You can't expand the appeal without diluting the experience.

So it's a private club. I get it now. For some silly reason I thought it was a business.

 

[Chaparral]

But Bill, if we're talking about a hypothetical player who wants to get into ED Open World PvP but is put off by the prospect of the occasional rebuy, I'm afraid that I don't see how that player could actually be a RL person post-2.1 RNGineering. He or she is a mere construct that doesn't bear scrutiny.

ED Open World PvP, post 2.1, is massively engineered. The engineering process takes much longer and requires much more care and thought than the credit acquisition process. (This will be the same even after the 3.0 improvements.) Ergo, anyone genuinely ready for full organic PvP already doesn't care about creds.

I just don't believe that there's anyone out there with a ship that is suitable for ED Open World PvP that would even notice if Frontier deducted 10 of their chosen vessel's rebuys from their account overnight by mistake.

How could someone be modded module rich, yet credit poor? I mean, ok, in an infinite universe it's not impossible ... yet it doesn't seem realistic to me.

It is a very high barrier for a new player to participate in pvp or wvw in this game with your model. Acquire hundreds of millions of credits, unlock and grind mats for engineers. IMO that will not encourage new players to pvp in this game. The necessary path you outline forces a player to do substantial PVE tasks (I'm guessing at least 40 hours) to be geared for entry level pvp. That seems broken to me as a business model and game mechanic.

 

[Chaparral]

That would look very artifcial and wouldn't, in any way, fit in the game. The artificial PvP areas we have in rpgmmos really have to place in Elite.
Hm. But if PvP would _only_ be allowed there... Deal.

We currently have the walled gardens of CZ's and Res Zones and Thargoid USS's, how would designated PVP and WVW be different?

You would lose compelled encounters like interdictions. Some interdictions are blockades, some are piracy, some are bounty hunting, some are pp or faction related, others are - well -whatever. Would dropping the rebuy in those encounters actually change the outcome? I'd like to see the reasoning there.

 

[Truesilver]

It is a very high barrier for a new player to participate in pvp or wvw in this game with your model. Acquire hundreds of millions of credits, unlock and grind mats for engineers. IMO that will not encourage new players to pvp in this game. The necessary path you outline forces a player to do substantial PVE tasks (I'm guessing at least 40 hours) to be geared for entry level pvp. That seems broken to me as a business model and game mechanic.

Here we agree. The entry barrier has varied and has actually gone up and down. But mostly it has been high.

I began playing in 1.0. Until 1.4, being able to PvP in a serious ship was actually extremely difficult to achieve, because credit flow was very, very restricted (without using some really exploity exploits). It took me many months of dedicated play to have enough creds. This was made much more difficult (though, in other ways, rewarding) by the fact that at the time I played exclusively in Open, had no online friends or wingmates and didn't use any of the exploits. I remember how liberating it was when I could actually afford two ships (one to PvP in, the other to make money in). Wow, that took a long time to get to.

However, in 1.4 Robigo freed things up and until 2.1 it was quite easy (perhaps, even too easy) to reach a medium ship with fully A-ranked modules and plenty of rebuys in the bank.

But then, from 2.1 to date, the entry barrier to achieving a reasonably competitive build has been insanely high - I'm sorry to say that I think vastly higher than 40 hours - due to the demands of 2.1 RNGineering.

Thankfully Frontier's massive dial-back in 3.0 should cure most of that.

However, returning to the point what I'm saying is that the true bar to participation in Open World PvP in ED is and remains time spent on Engineering, not time spent on credit acquisition. This will remains so after 3.0, although by no means as much as before.

 

[Mohrgan]

Just, what makes pixel-money so important? When you loose some, just go get more. But for newer players, who is struggling for Credits? The Rebuy is now baked into the C&P system. If one can accept having to pay to repair equipment after dying, in other games, why is a measly 5% of your ships cost so onerous?

The Rebuy Screen is as much a part of E|D, as getting blown up for loitering. It's a manifestation of the dystopian future that makes E|D what it is. It's only 5% of the cost of what you are flying... just 5%. FD even offer loans, and the ability to remotely sell off assets to cover the cost. This is no real burden. This idea seems like nothing more than simple Pixel-Greed.

 

[Adhock]

But then, from 2.1 to date, the entry barrier to achieving a reasonably competitive build has been insanely high - I'm sorry to say that I think vastly higher than 40 hours - due to the demands of 2.1 RNGineering.

Yeah I frankly got kind of bored of the engineers because I felt they were really restrictive in the gathering phase. Having to run all the way to their base just to see what mats I needed for specific items? Made life difficult. While the unlocking was unique, some of them were ridiculous. (I spent a week of hard Siruis runs just to get access to that system)

Having chain my way to the G5's I wanted and yeah. I got burned out quickly.

Not to mention having to search for and kill things I wasn't interested in killing because it didn't fit my playstyle.

2.1 about broke my enjoyment in the game when NPC's got engineered as well and became flying death machines where I couldn't even pick a fight with a Harmless when I used to be able to handle a lone Dangerous or Deadly NPC and Elite was an enjoyable high intense fight where it could have gone ether way and the slightest error on my part meant my doom.

Now I can handle the lower ranks but the upper three ranks I don't touch these days. I still haven't gotten back into Engineering. 3.0 might finally give me a bit of relief and make things a little easier on me.

I'm a PvP combatant. I just don't have the skill for it. Now I don't have the skill OR equipment for it. I'm always trailing behind that particular curve. I might be able to catch up and get mentored in PvP combat as I might need it in the close future. But as it stands even for someone from pre1.2. The bar is really high.

It's only 5% of the cost of what you are flying... just 5%. FD even offer loans, and the ability to remotely sell off assets to cover the cost. This is no real burden. This idea seems like nothing more than simple Pixel-Greed.

My dream Corvette costs 724,237,630 credits. That's will all the modules I want to outfit it with. Not the cost of the base ship.

The projected rebuy is 36,211,882 credits. Again this is based on the total cost that also includes the worth of the modules. Not the base ship.

For me? That's a mindboggling lot of money. That is not a "measly burden". That is a significant investment. Not insurmountable as new players would tell you but enough to really make me think twice about bringing it to a PvP fight. And maybe think thrice about bringing it to a CZ.

Granted yes I have a combat Viper worth 3mill I could easily take instead at 400K a pop. But I use that for police/BH work due to being a short range interceptor.

So for those PvP'ers who have overcome the credit barrier? That's one I have yet to get over.

If that amount doesn't phase you then I suggest you redefine your definition of "measly". Because it sure as hell isn't mine.

 

[Blaize Meduenin]

The problem is those in combat ships attacking those not in combat ships.

The combat ships have a far greater chance of winning, and a far less risk if they lose.

Until that is addressed nothing can fix pvp.

There is no reason why missions need to fail when killed, no reason data shouldnt remain on death the same as materials do, and even cargo value can remain by being insured the same way that ships are.

These losses can amount to hours or in the terms of data as said previously week or even months of effort to satisfy someones wish to cause grief.

That wouldn't fix pvp but it would mean the victim isnt footing the risk/cost as well as being severely out gunned.

 

[StiTch]

The notion that it is difficult to find mindless pew-pew tends to be fairly misplaced. What PvP would benefit from is not facilitation of mindless pew-pew, but a sense of meaning and relevance.

 

[Mohrgan]

My dream Corvette costs 724,237,630 credits. That's will all the modules I want to outfit it with. Not the cost of the base ship.

The projected rebuy is 36,211,882 credits. Again this is based on the total cost that also includes the worth of the modules. Not the base ship.

For me? That's a mindboggling lot of money. That is not a "measly burden". That is a significant investment. Not insurmountable as new players would tell you but enough to really make me think twice about bringing it to a PvP fight. And maybe think thrice about bringing it to a CZ.

Granted yes I have a combat Viper worth 3mill I could easily take instead at 400K a pop. But I use that for police/BH work due to being a short range interceptor.

So for those PvP'ers who have overcome the credit barrier? That's one I have yet to get over.

If that amount doesn't phase you then I suggest you redefine your definition of "measly". Because it sure as hell isn't mine.

When you, eventually, get to your Dream ship, be sure to bring along enough Credits for a re-buy. It's essentially the same the same as earning the credits to buy the Ship, then all of the Modules, just add rebuys to the equation. That other players put in what ever effort they had to, to get what they are flying is all part of the game. To players who risk Battle 'Vettes, that rebuy should be cake. If it isn't don;t fly one. Having the credits to do something is an essential barrier in E|D. If you don;t have enough Credits for an FdL, fly an FAS. If you don't have the credits for a 'Vette, fly a Python or an FGS. It's the exact same thing.

 

[Imo]

"why is a measly 5% of your ships cost so onerous?"

Because the commander needed probably months to get this ship, to outfit this ship and to engineer this ship. Even if his rebuy may be 5 % "only" he has now to have this amount of money NOW. And he must get his lost money back VERY SOON - or to give up his current way of play.

 

[Mohrgan]

Because the commander needed probably months to get this ship, to outfit this ship and to engineer this ship. Even if his rebuy may be 5 % "only" he has now to have this amount of money NOW. And he must get his lost money back VERY SOON - or to give up his current way of play.

Oh, so it's because of: Consequences....

The effort to purchase and then outfit a ship is the exact same thing as being ready with a few rebuys. Not having enough to cover a rebuy, and then flying the ship is a risk accepted by the individual player. All of this has the exact same effort involved. Earning Credits. Which in my experience, isn't hard.

 

[Adhock]

To players who risk Battle 'Vettes, that rebuy should be cake. If it isn't don;t fly one.

And that's the inherent problem the OP wants to address.

PvP players and gankers have already crossed this threshhold and have the money necessary to build a frigate class warship. Even if they get taken out by a skilled one on one Sidewinder combatant, they have the bank accounts to laugh this off.

For the most part, ships are balanced around each other. It would take a wing of Vipers to wolfpack a ganker Conda and that's if the ganker decides to stick around and indulge them. (Which they won't because no ganker would target a wing, let alone any sort of combat ship) But a wing of Vipers against a Wing of Battlecondas? I know where my money is going if I bet on that fight.

So you just raised the PvP bar even higher and admitted that if you can't afford to PvP, then you shouldn't. And there's a lot of people who can't afford to PvP because they have nether the skill from rushing to get into a big ship or have the credits to afford one while they were developing that skill.

Hell my FGS is worth 83 million with an 11 million rebuy and it STILL isn't combat ready. Meaning the price is going to get higher. Still within my price range as opposed to the bigger investment of the Vette but enough to make me hesitate to bring it to a serious fight until I've had a shakedown flight and learned how it handles in combat. And the time for combat is extremely close.

I still fully intend to own and seriously fly a Vette. I did have a Conda once but lost it to something stupid. It was a new experience flying something that big and while I've taken the loss with a shrug and got back to work building back up to a bigger ship, I cherish the time I had with it. Others may not take the loss so well.

Hell. I trolled the board unintentionally and learned how many people failed reading comprehension.

I understand the PvP community wants more people so they can enjoy their sessions more. But that's putting a big burden on those of us who just aren't ready. And we'll never be ready if you keep picking on us.

The OP wants to address that by removing the burden on the players so they can get more people involved and interested in the PvP side of things to make the game more fun for them. But removing the consequences isn't going well as a suggestion. The risk is part of what makes Elite fun.

I remember 2.1 and after being destroyed so many times by the NPC's and feeling down and out ready to quit Elite for good, I scraped enough credits to buy a striped down cargo Python with no rebuy.

I lived Dangerously. And Love for Elite bloomed again with accepting what I was doing was stupid and doing it anyway. Casting fear to the wind and learning to fly with all speed and no combat.

I miss that Python.

But it was flying stupid and risky that make me love this game.

 

[Imo]

"Oh, so it's because of: Consequences...."

No. It is the miss assumption that a Cmdr who needed MONTHS to get what he flies will be able to archieve 5 % parts of that in a much shorter time.

Example: I begun to play at release day in Dec 2014 and it took exactly 1 year back then until I could buy a stock Anaconda. Assuming that a stock Anaconda may cost 140 M Credits I made 140 M / 365 = 0,38 M each day.

To get one rebuy of 5 % under these conditions (which back then were like this) I needed 140 M / 20 = 7 M for one rebuy. 7 M / 0,38 per day = 18,25 days to get one rebuy.

Okay, I know income is bigger today and things go faster, but I hope you get what I mean. You will also need more than one rebuy of course to work efficiently and safe ...

 

[Sylveria]

No. It is the miss assumption that a Cmdr who needed MONTHS to get what he flies will be able to archieve 5 % parts of that in a much shorter time.

Example: I begun to play at release day in Dec 2014 and it took exactly 1 year back then until I could buy a stock Anaconda. Assuming that a stock Anaconda may cost 140 M Credits I made 140 M / 365 = 0,38 M each day.

To get one rebuy of 5 % under these conditions (which back then were like this) I needed 140 M / 20 = 7 M for one rebuy. 7 M / 0,38 per day = 18,25 days to get one rebuy.

Okay, I know income is bigger today and things go faster, but I hope you get what I mean. You will also need more than one rebuy of course to work efficiently and safe ...

Credits are also much easier to earn in larger quantities proportionally once you've obtained larger vessels.

Well, at least if you're flying with insurance and know what you're doing- and didn't grind to an Anaconda in a week then wonder why you lost it so quickly...