Krait mk II unlikely to get scanned?

[CMDR Carbo]

It's probably really hard to test this properly.
Also Sandro used the word "quick", how quick a ship will be investigated, not if it will be investigated in general. So leaving your ship AFK somewhere and counting the scans might not work.

Let's say you arrive at a station with a Krait. There are 2 authority ships that do the scanning, and there are 10 different ships entering or leaving the station at a given moment in time.
The game has to decide now which of the 10 ships the authority ships will scan in which order.
Should it scan the Krait and then the Beluga, or the Beluga and then the Krait?
Very likely what FDEV implemented is a ship rating list so the authority ships can decide which ships to scan first.

If all the authority ships are busy, because there are a lot of more scan-worthy ships they have to investigate first, you can easily come or leave with your Krait without being scanned.
This means, it not only depends on your ship type but on the amount of authority vessels and how many ships are currently around the starport.

 

[Ethaidan]

The point is, this value means nothing if:
a) there are no other ships, so the police can't just pretend it is not there and scan it.
b) all the other ships around have a lowest conspicuous value than the krait, which makes it the top of the list.

A. Only if you assume the system authority will scan every ship all the time, and the conspicuous rating is simply an order rating of when they will get around to scanning it. To use a real life analogy, the police could run the plates on every single vehicle that passes by, but they don't. They tend to prioritise certain types of vehicles for plates/stopping, and often ignore certain others. I would expect FD would have implemented something similarly complex - both a priority ranking (relative conspicuous values comparing ships within a system) and the possibility of being scanned (absolute conspicuous value + paint + system security rating, etc.).

I've started paying more attention to system authority scans and my python seems to always catch the system authorities attention, where my courier doesn't - regardless of how many other ships are around.

 

[Truesilver]

Based upon what @Ethaidan and others have said, it seems reasonable to speculate that each ship has two relevant hidden variables:

(A) Signature;

(B) Suspiciousness.

The former's mechanical relevance to sensor sig I've already discussed. The latter presumably kicks in either simplistically after the sensor sig threshold is crossed (i.e., if crossed, been seen, move to suspiciousness) or more subtly, blended in some way with signature.

Either way, the hidden 'suspiciousness' value, if it exists, is presumably also what is then modified by minor faction standing, eg modified downwards heavily by allied status.

 

[ilo]

A. Only if you assume the system authority will scan every ship all the time, and the conspicuous rating is simply an order rating of when they will get around to scanning it. To use a real life analogy, the police could run the plates on every single vehicle that passes by, but they don't. They tend to prioritise certain types of vehicles for plates/stopping, and often ignore certain others. I would expect FD would have implemented something similarly complex - both a priority ranking (relative conspicuous values comparing ships within a system) and the possibility of being scanned (absolute conspicuous value + paint + system security rating, etc.)..

So this leads us to two possibilities:
a) the krait is ignored by the police patrols and not scanned; we know this is not true, the krait being scanned is the result.
b) the police randomly ignores the less conspicuous ships, which not only would make me feel disappointed, but also very hard to conclude, and just a bit gamey.

either a or b, both are bad.

 

[777Driver]

.
The Krait is not supposed to be less likely to be scanned by criminals or bounty hunters. The only thing which should happen less frequenty is cargo scans from system security. And even there, if I understood that right, it's not like they refuse to scan the Krait, only reduce the priority of doing so.
.

This^


Pretty much how I have always understood it to be since it was implemented a while back, other factors are the ships condition, authority's' MKI eyeballing ships' and investigating due to (paint/ hull damage) and heat signature vs resolution distance. The hidden factor is the equivalent of the police being more likely to do a random stop and check on a BMW 3 series as opposed to a Toyota Prius.

 

[rekurzion]

i believe the effect is much more subtle than what has been suggested thus far.

several decades back a report in the united states listed the honda civic as the most owned car in the country. there was a specific color that was most common of which i forgot. the article suggested the car was so common you wouldn't give it a second thought and as a result broken into the most and used in petty crimes: cops won't notice the most common car in the country as a stolen car driving around the city.

but drive that same all too common car to a secret desert military base in the middle of the day the only car within a hundred miles and you can rest assured any patrol you cross is going to want to ask you questions.

the mechanic fdev is referring to is real and works in the same way. but numbers matter. situation matters.


npc's have line of sight and will follow an unresolved target until they can get close enough for a scan. if you are the only ship arriving at a starport then you are the only game in town. if you boost immediately after dropping into normal space then you will always be the first and only ship approaching the station. and since npc guard ships will be spawing about 5 km directly in front of the station slot flying towards the slot (meaning in the same direction you are flying) you are doing nothing to make yourself less of a target. this is the worst place to run a test. conversely sitting in a nav beacon where every ship eventually will get scanned.

now, drop into normal space and wait 3-5 minutes for activity to spawn before approaching the station. let the cops get into their normal flow of scanning and circling the station. watch and learn how the cops choose which ships to target to scan when there are more ships than they can scan. like food inspections. they don't scan all the chicken for cleanliness, only about 20%. you'll start to notice a pattern. my favorite is how npc's hate to be scanned and will fly away even with legal cargo. the npc sidewinder that boosts into the slot under the T-9. pesky power play ships that scan everyone for bounties (note they only scan for bounties, pp ships do not carry manifest scanners so they can't out your smuggling!!!). there is some surprising diversity. just enough chaos for a honda civic to drive into the parking lot unnoticed.

this is where you should run your test. approaching a station with several other ships and then see how often you are picked out from the pack. that is the correct metric to identify. i can already tell you from the eye test the krait is not high priority. if you bring an npc pirate in with you and they are of the exotic variety (an imperial clipper in federation space armed to the teeth), feds will start to scan you since you dropped in first and then almost immediately switch to the clipper. without a shot being fired. depending on what ship you are flying of course.


all of this is moot of course. keep your temperature under 20% and it doesn't matter what ship you fly.

 

[Factabulous]

this is the worst place to run a test. conversely sitting in a nav beacon where every ship eventually will get scanned.

well, apart from the fact this is untrue ....

 

[Replika Elster]

"Less likely to be scanned by authorities," pirates and smugglers then start using the Krait MkII due to this rumor.
Pirates start using the Krait MkII more, making it more likely to be scanned by authorities because every other Krait is a pirate or smuggler.

 

[rekurzion]

well, apart from the fact this is untrue ....

how so?

 

[ilo]

What about other scenarios.. like checkpoints or other areas where ships spawn at the same time as the player (or at least traders and police spawn at the same time) so we can see how many times the krait or other player ship is scanned first?

Ideally I'd run some tests in a scenario where only one police ship is present, since we know the scan work is split between diff authority ships, so even while being the last of the pack in the scan list, still might look like the first one if the police ship you get assigned in the last place is close to you.

 

[Frenotx]

This is how heat signature works in combat:

A. Every ship at any given time has a temperature (the variable)
B. Every ship has a hidden, developer-fixed, signature (the constant)
C. Heat signature is a product of A and B
D. Every sensor (size and grade) has a sig detection value
E. Range at which sensors will resolve the target, seeker missiles will lock and (to a less dramatic but still noticeable extent) the quality of gimbal tracking is a product of C and D

Putting the above together, an Anaconda (high sig) will become sensor resolved and targetable by seeker missiles at a much longer range than a Viper III (low sig) if the two are running at precisely the same temperature.

Now, all of the above we know. But if - which we don't know but may assume - the threshold of scanning is also determined exactly as above, then if as their remarks suggest the Devs have given the Krait a low sig, then a Krait running at the same temperature as a Python should receive fewer scans.

If anybody wants to test the above with a buddy (sorry, a bit too PvE for yours truly) then a starting point would be to make a Krait and a Python that both run cold at exactly the same temperature whilst stationary and see the range at which the buddy ship (which could move) achieves sensor resolution (in the central HUD scanner) and seeker missile lock. You should find that it is a further range for Python than Krait, as it would be for Anaconda v Viper.

If that is so, the only remaining question is whether NPC scans follow the same sig rules as combat.

I think the easiest (or at least most consistent) way to test this would be the following:

• 2 ships: The ship being tested (subject), and the scanner ship (proctor). The proctor should always be the same ship, with the same sensor module. For the sake of easier reproducibility, I suggest a fairly cheap / common ship, with factory-spec, A-rated sensors. The Asp X (with unmodified A-rated sensors) would be a good choice, as it's both common, and has a fairly large sensor module.
• The proctor should have a seeker missile equipped
• The subject should have a heatsink launcher equipped.
• The ships move 3km apart, and point at each other
• The subject powers everything off but the heatsink launcher. They then fire the heatsink launcher, wait until their temperature has bottomed out, and then power off the heatsink launcher. This should minimize their temperature without needing to use silent running.
• The subject then confirms that they've become unresolved on the proctor's sensors
• If the proctor is still locked on the subject a few seconds after the subject has engaged silent running, move further apart and try again
• The proctor should add the seeker launcher to a fire group, and switch to that group
• Once the subject is no longer resolved on the proctor's sensors, the proctor should begin slowly moving forward.
• When the subject becomes resolved, immediately lock on and note the range. This will be called [MINIMUM RESOLVED RANGE]
• The proctor should continue to slowly approach the subject, and pay attention to the missile launcher. As soon as the missiles begin locking on the the subject, note the range and stop. This will be called [MINIMUM LOCK RANGE]
• (Optional, but recommended) Start over from the beginning, and repeat the process 2 more times. Average the results together, to get [AVERAGE MINIMUM RESOLVED RANGE], and [MINIMUM LOCK RANGE].
• (Optional, but potentially interesting) Conduct the experiment again, but this time with the subject in silent running mode. See if the numbers vary at all. Don't bother with the missile range part of this, as I don't think you can ever get a missile lock on a silent running ship. If the the numbers do vary, refer to this one as [MINIMUM SILENT RESOLVED RANGE]

With this data, we could deduce the hidden signature value for each ship (or at least a functionally equivalent number), and predict at what ranges ships will be visible given their heat, and the sensors of the enemy ship.

 

[ilo]

radar resolving range and AI/NPC authority conspicuous value are probably very different things. I keep getting 'resolved' at 10km, but just not scanned because the scanner needs a higher temp value. That doesnt clarify if an NPC would come to scan me first.

 

[rekurzion]

some notes...

I think the easiest (or at least most consistent) way to test this would be the following:

• 2 ships: The ship being tested (subject), and the scanner ship (proctor). The proctor should always be the same ship, with the same sensor module. For the sake of easier reproducibility, I suggest a fairly cheap / common ship, with factory-spec, A-rated sensors. (any reason this needs to be an a rated sensor for testing? i would think it irrelevant) The Asp X (with unmodified A-rated sensors) would be a good choice, as it's both common, and has a fairly large sensor module.
• The proctor should have a seeker missile equipped
• The subject should have a heatsink launcher equipped.
• The ships move 3km apart, and point at each other
• how about start with the ships 250 meters apart. subject follows silent procedure described below then proctor moves back until the target is unresolved. then moves back to 3km. this helps capture the an important moment in jousting: how long does it take, if i don't fire a shot and am already not a target, to go back to an unresolved contact.
• The subject powers everything off but the heatsink launcher. They then fire the heatsink launcher, wait until their temperature has bottomed out, and then power off the heatsink launcher. This should minimize their temperature without needing to use silent running.
• The subject then confirms that they've become unresolved on the proctor's sensors
• If the proctor is still locked on the subject a few seconds after the subject has engaged silent running, move further apart and try again
• The proctor should add the seeker launcher to a fire group, and switch to that group
• Once the subject is no longer resolved on the proctor's sensors, the proctor should begin slowly moving forward.
• When the subject becomes resolved, immediately lock on and note the range. This will be called [MINIMUM RESOLVED RANGE]
• The proctor should continue to slowly approach the subject, and pay attention to the missile launcher. As soon as the missiles begin locking on the the subject, note the range and stop. This will be called [MINIMUM LOCK RANGE]
• (Optional, but recommended) Start over from the beginning, and repeat the process 2 more times. Average the results together, to get [AVERAGE MINIMUM RESOLVED RANGE], and [MINIMUM LOCK RANGE].
• (Optional, but potentially interesting) Conduct the experiment again, but this time with the subject in silent running mode. See if the numbers vary at all. Don't bother with the missile range part of this, as I don't think you can ever get a missile lock on a silent running ship. If the the numbers do vary, refer to this one as [MINIMUM SILENT RESOLVED RANGE]

With this data, we could deduce the hidden signature value for each ship (or at least a functionally equivalent number), and predict at what ranges ships will be visible given their heat, and the sensors of the enemy ship.

i'd be interested also in the silent running comparisons, especially what a human player sees. npc's act very different when you are cold running and silent running. when you are cold running an npc will never get closer to 1km and never complete a scan. but go into silent running and that same npc will close to within 300 meters and scan your ship. that's why i never stay in silent running to smuggle. i only use it as a toggle to get npc ships to get closer, then i turn and go back to cold running and they have to make evasive maneuvers not to hit my ship and reacquire lock. it's a fun little game to play.

but i imagine a human player wouldn't notice anything different. it would still be just an unresolved contact.

 

[Vasious]

I was intrigued by that as well OP, so I started an experiment : take each of the 'default' ships out to the Nav Beacon and leave it, count the scans, see how they differ.

So far:



As you can hopefully see (if imgur is not blocking any more) the Krait does see to get scanned less than Pythons, but there are other ships that get scanned less. The only one with zero scans was my super-cold DBX. But, need more data - takes a while when you need the ship alone for 1hr+, luckily the World Cup is keeping me distracted

Wouldn't it matter what other ships are about, so the relative "conspicuousness" of each ship comes into effect
So if one is in a Krait and all about is Haulers and Sidewinders, then the Krait would still be higher on the list than if one is in a Krait with Pythons and Anacondas about

It is not about if the System Authority vessels chose to scan any given ship, the the priority

 

[Morbad]

but i imagine a human player wouldn't notice anything different. it would still be just an unresolved contact.

I can't tell the difference between a ship in SR and one that's just very cold unless I'm close enough to see if the radiators are open or not, which is generally already well within resolve range of either.

 

[Frenotx]

some notes...




i'd be interested also in the silent running comparisons, especially what a human player sees. npc's act very different when you are cold running and silent running. when you are cold running an npc will never get closer to 1km and never complete a scan. but go into silent running and that same npc will close to within 300 meters and scan your ship. that's why i never stay in silent running to smuggle. i only use it as a toggle to get npc ships to get closer, then i turn and go back to cold running and they have to make evasive maneuvers not to hit my ship and reacquire lock. it's a fun little game to play.

but i imagine a human player wouldn't notice anything different. it would still be just an unresolved contact.

The reason for the A-rated sensor is to spread the readings out a bit. If I'm given a bunch of numbers between 1 and 10, the differences between them can seem fairly minor, and an error of +/- 1 can make a massive impact in accuracy. If those numbers are instead spread out between 1'and 100, their distinction will be far more clear. Furthermore, an error of +/- 1 won't have as much of an impact. The Asp's sensor module is fairly large (presumably giving more separation between the extremes), while at the same time being a little less costly (and this easier for anybody to contribute data with) than say an anaconda.

As for the other suggestion, seems reasonable. I don't think it would hurt the other bits of data being collected, it wouldn't take much extra time, and it gives us that much more to work with. If nobody has done this in two weeks or so, I may start up a project. I'm going on "vacation" to try and get some proper medical care, and thus will likely have a good chunk of time on my hands.

 

[Zak Gordon]

If the Krait mkII is a known favourite of smugglers it should get scanned more? That would be logical.

 

[Shiro Akai]

Have anyone else noticed that this doesn't seem to be true, in fact for my experience i get security ships trying to scan me much more in krait than in any other ships.

Bought my Krait 2 days ago. Seen more scans than the last two weeks of flying FDL. Translating from FDEVish to English: "less likely" means more frequent. As always, totally opposite.

But hey, the're British, they drive on the wrong side of the road so no wonder other things are upside down (let's be just grateful they are not Australians*...)



*

Spoiler

hi Australians
<waves hand>

 

[rekurzion]

I can't tell the difference between a ship in SR and one that's just very cold unless I'm close enough to see if the radiators are open or not, which is generally already well within resolve range of either.

i guess it depends on the ship. a python is a christmas tree where silent running doesn't have much external visual affect. same with a cobra. its visually loud. now with an asp scout, silent does more than keep in heat, in turns off external lighting. this doesn't happen with the asp explorer. the krait has the same subtle effect. it's already quiet visually. another subtle yet important feature. it makes tracking a silent running visually quiet ship all the more difficult. no little flickers of light in the distance to help track a ship off radar.

 

[Red Fox Four]

Why do we have to mine out this data through extensive tests?

Why can't they just provide numbers ?

Also, why is there a fixed number that affects probability of a ship being scanned?

Makes no sense to me.

How frequently any ship is scanned should be related to the security level of the system as well as the current state of the system / minor faction. If there is a War/Civil War then pretty much every single ship should be scanned (or attempted to be scanned).

Would be the absolutely worst police force in the world if they were all going "Oh, that's an Asp Scout, we don't need to scan those". Gee, I wonder what ship 99,9% of all criminals and smugglers would be flying then.