Large AX Ship: Cutter or Anaconda?

[Brrokk]

I hear this a lot … how many Guardian HRPs do you need to stack before “impervious” happens, because it just hasn’t been my experience!!!

That's me too. With my AX Anaconda I find the greatest danger is caustic damage. I'm carrying limpets and I also burn it off sometimes, but either means taking a break from combat which isn't always easy.

If I do take too much damage it's often the cargo scoop which fails, and then all my precious limpets are gone

 

[Brrokk]

I run 7 grade 5 Guardian Hull Reinforcement modules. Gives me around 30% caustic resistance and I can't remember how many thousands of caustic hit points. I have mine outfitted for mining at the moment. I'd have to reoutfit it to find out.

Ah, do Guardian HRPs work better than ordinary ones against caustic damage?

 

[Marvin the Martian]

Ah, do Guardian HRPs work better than ordinary ones against caustic damage?

Big time.

Many hits do nothing at all. You'll hear the "incoming caustic attack" alert a lot but nothing ever happens. Even when you finally do get "infected", it takes a lot longer for any damage to occur, so you can finish killing off any scouts around you and launch a decontaminate drone to clean it up then get right back in there fighting.

And what you have to remember is that the Gaurdian Hull Reinforcements are the equivalent of a grade 4 engineered deep plating regular reinforcement module, so you're not losing much at all in regular protection, you're just picking up a TON of caustic protection and resistance.

EDIT TO ADD: Here's a short video I did when I first got the new advanced AX cannons put on it. You'll notice I get hit right at the start and get the "taking damage alert" and you can see the little sparks flying off my dashboard, but watch my armor rating. It hardly ever moves the whole time.

Source: https://youtu.be/LV6OzIWuM9w

 

[cargorunner1969]

I think that one of my Guardian fighters (Trident / Lance) landed a shot on a player. They didn't like it and shot back at me! Silly
as their Guardian weapons didn't do any damage. To respect the other players I retired the fighters for more hull reinforcement.

Good move. It's all a learning experience I guess. I learnt that even with a ed off basilisk right behind, diving a cutter at the landing pad and expecting to pull out of the dive is woefully optimistic lol

 

[photomankc]

Yes... The classic Sofie's Choice:

Slow down and allow the angry death flower to take out the last few percent of hull

- or -

Don't slow down and allow the pad to take out the last few percent of hull



I think the most rage inducing one was just surviving the final 3 hearts of a Medusa by the skin of my teeth and now I have it. It's dead. I'll get repaired and I've got this sucker. Then suddenly I notice I'm down from 11% hull to 6% because I have a personal escort of scouts like 6 or more of them all focused on me. Just as I'm slowing the Clipper with LG and CS extended and think I might just have this. "Whoop whoop whoop" Incoming caustic missiles. They all launched one. Little white triangles everywhere. 3%.... 2%.... Blue circle 1%..... then sparks and flames.

Yeah.... I said some seriously unpleasant things. Well played scouts... well played.

 

[ToxicCMDR]

This

I hear this a lot … how many Guardian HRPs do you need to stack before “impervious” happens, because it just hasn’t been my experience!!!

This AX Conda has 10600 caustic hull.

 

[tolm]

This

This AX Conda has 10600 caustic hull.

Yeh … but how much would it have with entirely G5 Heavy Duty / Deep Plating? Is its ability to tank caustic damage really down to having Guardian HRPs or just that is has a **** ton of hull in the first place?!

I’ve not built anything that extreme but when running smaller ships: 4600 raw vs whatever equivalent I could get with Guardian HRPs felt essentially the same in use.
My Cutter, for example, has 3x Guardian HRPs and 2x Heavy Duty / Deep Plating HRPs along with engineered armour.

• Raw hull is 4780 and caustic is 5580.
• Switching to all engineered HRPs gives raw and caustic of 5534: almost identical against caustic and way better against anything else (ramming, the floor …)
• Switching all to Guardian HRPs drops raw to 4285 with caustic of just 5537

Now, that’s all just numbers … so I’m not claiming any of them are better, it just confuses me when I see posts saying “I’ve put Guardian HRPs in my ship and now I’m impervious to caustic damage” because not only do the numbers not suggest that, my experience has not been that.

Or to put it another way, re-arranging that 'Conda build with the usual 5D/2D/1D Module reinforcements and the rest all G5 Heavy Duty / Deep Plating HRPs gives about 20% less hull vs caustic. Does that difference really constitute "impervious"?

Incidentally, taking the 5D/2D/1D MRP approach and Guardian HRPs can take that build to ~11,500 hull. Albeit still with no shields, limpets or AMFU.

 

[ToxicCMDR]

Yeh … but how much would it have with entirely G5 Heavy Duty / Deep Plating? Is its ability to tank caustic damage really down to having Guardian HRPs or just that is has a **** ton of hull in the first place?!

I’ve not built anything that extreme but when running smaller ships: 4600 raw vs whatever equivalent I could get with Guardian HRPs felt essentially the same in use.
My Cutter, for example, has 3x Guardian HRPs and 2x Heavy Duty / Deep Plating HRPs along with engineered armour.

• Raw hull is 4780 and caustic is 5580.
• Switching to all engineered HRPs gives raw and caustic of 5534: almost identical against caustic and way better against anything else (ramming, the floor …)
• Switching all to Guardian HRPs drops raw to 4285 with caustic of just 5537

Now, that’s all just numbers … so I’m not claiming any of them are better, it just confuses me when I see posts saying “I’ve put Guardian HRPs in my ship and now I’m impervious to caustic damage” because not only do the numbers not suggest that, my experience has not been that.

Or to put it another way, re-arranging that 'Conda build with the usual 5D/2D/1D Module reinforcements and the rest all G5 Heavy Duty / Deep Plating HRPs gives about 20% less hull vs caustic. Does that difference really constitute "impervious"?

Incidentally, taking the 5D/2D/1D MRP approach and Guardian HRPs can take that build to ~11,500 hull. Albeit still with no shields, limpets or AMFU.

1. You need to maximize caustic damage resistance. All goids damage is caustic. Combine guardian and regular HRPs to maximize caustic.
2. 2D/1D MRPs are very weak at will be destroyed with one blast of interceptor. For two MRPs only 4D/5D. For three I would use 5D/4D/3D but no less.

 

[tolm]

1. You need to maximize caustic damage resistance. All goids damage is caustic. Combine guardian and regular HRPs to maximize caustic.
2. 2D/1D MRPs are very weak at will be destroyed with one blast of interceptor. For two MRPs only 4D/5D. For three I would use 5D/4D/3D but no less.

I think, for the number of HRPs I’m running, I’m already optimised: changing any Guardian ones to engineered or vice-versa only drops the numbers.

Interesting suggestion on the MRPs. I’ve been running 5D/2D/1D on all my AX builds - as per AXI recommendations - and haven’t particularly had issues with losing the 5D (I believe it takes ALL the damage until it dies?) apart from when I’ve been an idiot and forgotten to hit it with the AFMU during calmer moments.

On the Cutter I’ve dispensed with the AMFU altogether since I also have 2500MJ of shields so modules only take phasing damage. On the rare occasions that an Interceptor ”storm” attack has knocked my generator out (seems to only be the Hydras that can reliably do that when three Guardian MRPs are equipped?) I simply run off to reboot!

 

[ToxicCMDR]

I think, for the number of HRPs I’m running, I’m already optimised: changing any Guardian ones to engineered or vice-versa only drops the numbers.

Interesting suggestion on the MRPs. I’ve been running 5D/2D/1D on all my AX builds - as per AXI recommendations - and haven’t particularly had issues with losing the 5D (I believe it takes ALL the damage until it dies?) apart from when I’ve been an idiot and forgotten to hit it with the AFMU during calmer moments.

On the Cutter I’ve dispensed with the AMFU altogether since I also have 2500MJ of shields so modules only take phasing damage. On the rare occasions that an Interceptor ”storm” attack has knocked my generator out (seems to only be the Hydras that can reliably do that when three Guardian MRPs are equipped?) I simply run off to reboot!

My build uses 6 2A mod guardian shards. They draw tons of power, require 5F weapon stabilizer and a lot of heatsinks. I use 6x4 heatsinks and deploy 2 at a time.
It just doesn't fit with a shield and shield boosters.

 

[Brrokk]

OK, so I played around with my build in Inara. It looks like one Guardian HRP is good because it gets you 5% resistance against caustic on the whole hull. Another one makes it almost 10%. But returns diminish because they don't have quite the HPs as G5 HRPs. They're also powered; I couldn't power enough of them to fill the slots I'm using for HRPs, and overcharging more makes the Thargs take more notice of you. It's an interesting trade-off.

(Edit) Another thought that's just struck me is that it might be best to make the smaller HRPs Guardian ones, to get the resistances which apply to all for less power. Back to Inara.

(Edit 2) Yes, it works. Even a size 1 or 2 Guardian HRP gives 5% caustic resistance, and takes hardly any extra power. So I think the way to go is size 5 G5 HRPs and a size 1 Guardian HRP.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

But returns diminish because they don't have quite the HPs as G5 HRPs.

Correct. As stated before, they Gaurdian modules are equivalent to grade 4 deep plating. But the grade 5 regulars have ZERO caustic resistance, so they simply are not the way to go at all.

 

[Brrokk]

In case anyone is interested, here's what I've just ended up with.

EDSY

EDSY is a ship outfitting tool for Elite Dangerous

edsy.org

 

[Marvin the Martian]

In case anyone is interested, here's what I've just ended up with. 11,570 hull against caustic, 9920 raw:-

EDSY

EDSY is a ship outfitting tool for Elite Dangerous

edsy.org

You're wasting space with the 7A limpet controller. It's bugged and doesn't work as it should. I run a 7 series shield in that slot and a simple 5 series decontamination limpet controller with a single 4 series cargo rack for limpets. It's typically enough to do 3 combat zones killing scouts only before docking for resupplying, rearming and repairing.

Edit to add: your 11,000 caustic hit points are essentially worthless because you only have 14% resistance to caustic attacks, so they'll eat through that armor in record time.

My build, on the other hand, only has 7,800 caustic hit points. But I have 30% caustic resistance. That's why a good many of their attacks don't hurt me at all.

 

[tolm]

Edit to add: your 11,000 caustic hit points are essentially worthless because you only have 14% resistance to caustic attacks, so they'll eat through that armor in record time.

My build, on the other hand, only has 7,800 caustic hit points. But I have 30% caustic resistance. That's why a good many of their attacks don't hurt me at all.

Someone needs to explain this to me because the maths simply doesn’t make sense.

I can’t find your build link - sorry, I know you posted it in the thread! But that 7,800 with 30% resistance is either just 7,800 because you’ve already counted the 30% or 10,140 if the 30% still needs to be accounted for. In any event, how does having 860 (or 3200) LESS armour mean the caustic attacks don’t hurt you at all?!

For example, when I’ve stacked, say, 26% caustic resistance I’ve not noticed a significant difference vs the same amount of raw armour.

I’m not saying you’re wrong - in many ways I want you to be right because I’d love to be immune to caustic attacks - but unless there is some other mechanic at play here (and all the build sites like Coriolis and EDSY are quoting armour resistance numbers wrong) the maths just doesn’t stack up to me.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I can’t find your build link - sorry, I know you posted it in the thread! But that 7,800 with 30% resistance is either just 7,800 because you’ve already counted the 30% or 10,140 if the 30% still needs to be accounted for. In any event, how does having 860 (or 3200) LESS armour mean the caustic attacks don’t hurt you at all?!

There's armor, and there's resistance. They're two separate things. It's just like D&D or Diablo or Quake or anything else. Your armor helps you, but resistance does as well. If you have a high armor type but little or no resistance to fire, then fire will kill you pretty easy since you have no resistance to it.

This game is no different. The more resistance you have to a given attack, the less it hurts you.

Everybody who has actually tried it has agreed with me. The only people who don't are those who have never tried it at all and insist on sticking with regular G5 modules based on whatever they've read or been told. I've even posted video of it showing me taking no damage at all from caustic attacks and people still harp on that I'm wrong.

So it's simple: try it. Or don't. It's entirely up to you.

 

[tolm]

There's armor, and there's resistance. They're two separate things. It's just like D&D or Diablo or Quake or anything else. Your armor helps you, but resistance does as well. If you have a high armor type but little or no resistance to fire, then fire will kill you pretty easy since you have no resistance to it.

This game is no different. The more resistance you have to a given attack, the less it hurts you.

Everybody who has actually tried it has agreed with me. The only people who don't are those who have never tried it at all and insist on sticking with regular G5 modules based on whatever they've read or been told. I've even posted video of it showing me taking no damage at all from caustic attacks and people still harp on that I'm wrong.

So it's simple: try it. Or don't. It's entirely up to you.

I have tried it and have not had the same experience others describe here.

I’m very aware that Armour and Resistance are difference things.

For me - on my FAS:

4600 raw + 0% caustic resist = 4600
3500 raw + 30% caustic resist = 4550

Why would the second one better? In my experience, they seem to handle caustic damage about the same.

I’m not trying to be awkward but all of the ship build sites (Coriolis / EDSY) quote armour stats in the exact same way as I have above. Are they wrong? Is there something else going on that those sites don’t account for?

For larger ships - with higher base hull - there is definitely an advantage to having some Guardian HRPs since there is enough armour already on the ship that the 5% of total armour bonus is more than that lost by not having engineering. But you need to get up to around 5000 hull with the ships armour and a couple of Heavy Duty / Deep Plating engineered HRPs first.

For those, the numbers stack up - it becomes clear that switching to Guardian HRPs is better for all but the first few which still need to be engineered ones.

On my Cutter, for example, I have 2 engineered and 3 Guardian C5 HRPs. Any change to that ratio will drop my overall caustic hull.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

I’m very aware that Armour and Resistance are difference things.

And then you say this:

4600 raw + 0% caustic resist = 4600
3500 raw + 30% caustic resist = 4550

What you're doing is adding the resistance to the armor essentially making it the same thing.

What you're not doing is thinking that if you have 30% resistance, then any attack of that type against you has a 30% chance of complete failure. It has nothing to do with the armor at all.

 

[CMDR The Riz]

You're wasting space with the 7A limpet controller. It's bugged and doesn't work as it should.

If you're referring to this bug:

Issue Tracker

issues.frontierstore.net

That's allegedly been fixed. I can back that up with experience using a 7A Repair Limpet Controller on both my Clipper and Cutter, and they certainly seem to repair a good chunk of my hull. I think I clocked it at ~10% of my Clipper's 4k hull, which seems to align with what EDSY says its repair capacity per Limpet is.

Edit to add: your 11,000 caustic hit points are essentially worthless because you only have 14% resistance to caustic attacks, so they'll eat through that armor in record time.

My build, on the other hand, only has 7,800 caustic hit points. But I have 30% caustic resistance. That's why a good many of their attacks don't hurt me at all.

What you're doing is adding the resistance to the armor essentially making it the same thing.

What you're not doing is thinking that if you have 30% resistance, then any attack of that type against you has a 30% chance of complete failure. It has nothing to do with the armor at all.

The Caustic HP listed in both Coriolis and EDSY is your effective HP versus any incoming Caustic damage (i.e. Interceptor / Scout main cannons and Thargoo). The calculation is as follows:

Raw HP * 1 / [ (100% - Damage Resistance) / 100 ] = Effective HP

The resistance values are not probabilities as with Breach Damage - it's a straight damage multiplier. At 30.1% Caustic Resistance, for every 1 MJ of Caustic Damage that hits your ship you receive 69.9% of that or 0.699 MJ.

Furthermore, Caustic Resistance won't help you when those Bi-Weaves are up - all Phasing damage (~10% damage of whatever hit the shield) is of the Absolute damage type and counts against your Raw HP; therefore, running with the Guardian HRPs with a shield actually reduces your effective HP when that shield is up. I'd recommend either ditching the shield and going full hull tank or replacing the Guardian HRPs with G5 Heavy Duty | Deep Plating HRPs.

4600 raw + 0% caustic resist = 4600
3500 raw + 30% caustic resist = 4550

Why would the second one better? In my experience, they seem to handle caustic damage about the same.

Theoretically, the second build could gain more effective HP per Repair Limpet in exchange for more power usage (and therefore more waste heat generated - HRP power draw * Powerplant Efficiency) because of the Guardian HRPs; in practice, they'll feel the same, so long as you don't lithobrake, smack into the station or get into a fight with a Thargoid sympathizer

I’m not trying to be awkward but all of the ship build sites (Coriolis / EDSY) quote armour stats in the exact same way as I have above. Are they wrong? Is there something else going on that those sites don’t account for?

No, they're correct - though it took me a hard minute to remember the calculation for Effective HP

 

[Brrokk]

You're wasting space with the 7A limpet controller. It's bugged and doesn't work as it should. I run a 7 series shield in that slot and a simple 5 series decontamination limpet controller with a single 4 series cargo rack for limpets. It's typically enough to do 3 combat zones killing scouts only before docking for resupplying, rearming and repairing.

Edit to add: your 11,000 caustic hit points are essentially worthless because you only have 14% resistance to caustic attacks, so they'll eat through that armor in record time.

My build, on the other hand, only has 7,800 caustic hit points. But I have 30% caustic resistance. That's why a good many of their attacks don't hurt me at all.

I haven't found the limpet controller to be bugged, what's the bug supposed to be? I've got it because I like to have collectors too; I grab Thargoid hearts.