Lave radio, I object ! why generation Minecraft won't be hooked by E:D

[erikfinnegan]

My take on this is as TL;DR : too slow and no building !

Gratification triggers will be very low-key or kind of abstract in E: D, that is my take on what I've seen of game design so far ( leaving the dog fighting pre-alpha out for a moment, as I do not know where that is leading ). As such, I agree that talking about the generation Minecraft demographic is more apt than, say, GTA.

Minecrafters may be in, as I see spelunking in procedurally generated caves somewhat similar gameplay as exploring E's universe. But even this, spelunking, compared to space exploration has more gratification involved : the next creeper or a lava pool is just around the corner; or behind you. I suspect considerably longer delays between gameplay-relevant "events" in E. Give it seconds, but still.

I'm not saying this slower pace were all bad, if my impression matches the finished game at all, but that is mainly why I object the "Lave Radio – Conclave" suggestion whether E could ever draw in current-gen gamers.

In addition to the above, E will not have building. None that I'm aware of at least. In Minecraft, you can build your home and change the landscape everywhere and anywhere you like -- even in a cave and by this combine building gameplay with exploration gameplay. GTA, to pull that out again, does not have building, but they have the instant gratification and a tight story around the player thanks to being a single-player game.

E will not be able to tie a story-line around one player, you need to make your own ( the "fleeing from a bad day through imagination" theme which was mentioned on the pod cast as well ). Yet lacking building, making a home in your imaginary world, will make it hard to keep players hooked; multi-player or not.

EVE Online also has very similar two major draw-backs, too, for those gamers at least who are not primarily drawn in by the large space fights : stale exploration lacking procedurally generated "novelties" and no building.

So, all in all, I am very very concerned if, whether, and how E will make its market and "sell", what it will have, to the public.


Happy to consume your opinions on this now...


Cheers all.
Fin

 

[Selezen]

This was one of the things I wanted to say in the conclave but didn't manage to get my neb in quick enough!

I think ED needs to have some sort of personal property ownership, even if it comes in a later update. People should be able to build themselves a house on a planet (or several planets) or build themselves a station to live on.

Something to add their touch to the universe. Nothing big or fancy, like owning a city or something, but something that could be added to later for credits. A place where other commanders could come and visit you and stuff.

I know it's moving away from the space sim core of the game, but it's a way to widen the appeal and to create that feeling of a living and breathing universe whilst also appealing to the core "you can do ANYTHING in Elite" concept.

 

[psykokow]

Hey Fin,
I agree with you, the Minecraft users are a bunch of instant hits game junkies..

My wife loves to jump in and just mine for that reassuring swish swish pop noise..

It is a lovely game to play... as slow and as quiet as you like..

What has my 11yo son interested in Elite is me telling him all about it.. I know though he doesn't do the long games... but Im sure he will enjoy it..

THE KEY : Playing with people... Thats it.

A friendly multiplayer brings people in for the social aspect and role playing in game with friends... Can that be done in Elite?

YES... Hey guys lets meet a Lave I got a mission to take slaves to somewhere dangerous and I need your help..

HOOK... that is the biggest hook for young players.... TEAMING UP.. also having the other guys AGAINST THEM..
Add skype messages of 'take that ye varlet'...'you'll never take my carho in one piece'

etc etc

They won't really care about a pretty amazing graphic... unless it suits their role play...

 

[Darren Grey]

I don't think the Pac-man generation will be interested in this newfangled "Elite" game that Braben and Bell are making. It doesn't have points, levels or short-term goals that these kids obviously crave. The attention span of this entire generation is far too short for this sort of game. I mean it doesn't even have a lives system - how on earth are people used to 3 lives supposed to play a game like this?

 

[JohnStabler]

Fin,

I think I agree with you. I will stick to multiplayer components of games as I think conflating features of MP & SP serves no purpose.

There was no building in previous games and FD have made it pretty clear they're not interested in building in the initial release. My hunch is that they have no intention of changing the philosophy of Elite games in the future.

I see Elite Dangerous as GTA in space. There is an existing universe that you are free to roam through, but you can't sculpt the world physically (accepting there may be a couple of exceptions). Just like GTA, any effect you have on the world is on other players or on meta data such as politics or economics.

As soon as the focus is shifted away from combat in a sandbox, moving towards building in a sandbox, it ain't Elite no more. I'm all for new or improved features, but if you put a bigger head on a brush and then change to a rubber gripped handle...

EDITED: beacuse I didn't read te OP too good.

 

[Susimetsa]

I don't think the Pac-man generation will be interested in this newfangled "Elite" game that Braben and Bell are making. It doesn't have points, levels or short-term goals that these kids obviously crave. The attention span of this entire generation is far too short for this sort of game. I mean it doesn't even have a lives system - how on earth are people used to 3 lives supposed to play a game like this?

Just the post I wanted to write, but you beat me to it!

 

[Listeri69]

YES... Hey guys lets meet a Lave I got a mission to take slaves to somewhere dangerous and I need your help..

HOOK... that is the biggest hook for young players.... TEAMING UP.. also having the other guys AGAINST THEM..
Add skype messages of 'take that ye varlet'...'you'll never take my carho in one piece'

Slaves......... Carho....... erm what sort of slaves are we transporting here .

Although I agree there should be some sort of space you can call home, I also heard in lave radio the notion of 'Sim Planet' which Elite is definitely not and to be honest I'd rather not spend time building things other than contacts and my map of the known universe. I would however say like a place on Lave station for example that says 'Commander Simon Space Trader' for example where you could park your ships and maybe Players and NPCs could come to you rather than you go looking for missions. Also this would be great when they bring out the updates to walk around the station to have these types of establishments. Maybe you could start off with a dingy office on the wrong side of the station and end up with a shiny sign over the docking bay door that says 'home of______" ect. Just an Idea

 

[Sir.Tj]

Although I can see where you are coming from, I think that todays Minecraft Generation have a much better understanding of the type of game that ED will be.

My 12yo son loves Minecraft and take the time to create and plan things that can take him hours of gameplay time to complete. He has a real sense of achievment once he's completed it.

He's also a instant gratification junkie at the same time when it comes to FPS's (sigh) Although to be honest so am I on occasion

But, thanks to his old Dad banging on about Elite/FE/FFE etc since he was knee high he's looking forward to the games release and I believe he will enjoy the game as much as us. (until he discovers girl ).

I think we underestimate them a bit, and hopefully there will be a few young'uns not just wanting to blast anything that moves but building a career in game.

 

[Horsk]

Minecraft and ED are two very different concepts and I dont think you can compare them especially until you see ED up and running. You could only call Minecraft an instant gratification game if its played in creative mode or *****es mode as I call it.

Minecraft is a classic example of a game where gameplay comes before graphics in the traditional sense of how games were back in the 8 and 16 bit days. We all have personal examples of games which looked nice but when it came to gameplay had the attention span of of a teenager at a stamp collecting fair.

Minecraft was what the lego games should have been and never were.

The biggest problems with the multinational games produces is that the bean counters run them and not gamers. Take Blizzard and Warcraft, they produced the most succesful game of all time. Many would say times have changed and free to play concept hit them, but to my mind they dumbed the game down so it was easy for new players and forgot their core following.

I dont think todays gamers are very different from those of us who typed endless pages of basic into our 8 bit machines back in the 80's, its just that the beancounters and corporate focus group Herberts have neutered the gamers in a lot of companies and made instant gratification the norm.

Just Imagine how much Minecraft would have cost and what it would have looked like if Notch had been under the thumb at EA.

H

 

[Captain N]

I'm not quite sure where you're getting the idea this game is going to be somehow significantly more slow paced than the old ones. At every turn the developers talk about how they want to keep unnecessary waiting to minimum, and how travel from place to place should take minutes at most.

Elite and Frontier were pretty quick to begin with. Travel took minutes if even that, combat could be over in under ten seconds. There was a gratifying feedback loop where you would shoot at a ship and it would explode, and you would want to do that over and over, for hundreds of times. None of that slowly wearing down shields stuff you see in some of the newer space games.

Elite is very much comparable to GTA. Just go around and wreak havoc. Of course there's a more intelligent dimension to it, but only as much as it enriches rather than bogs down the gameplay.

 

[Lestat]

I bet it would be fun but tricky to make a Cobra MK3 on Minecraft.

 

[Cody]

I bet it would be fun but tricky to make a Cobra MK3 on Minecraft.

What... like this?

 

[psykokow]

*APPLAUDS* Bravo!!

 

[IsaacS]

Learning about the universe... if there are some real space things or galactic events going on modern gamers might get pulled in. Hear about a newly discovered planet or system in a sci-fi show, lets go visit that star system. Cute girl in class cannot understand binary star systems... you can go and get a picture of one for her.

Providing options for interacting out of game would be a pull too I think... getting news on your phone of what is happening in your system, printing out star maps to a destination to give to your friend, being able to print 3d models of things you find... you know, find some strange artifact, print it on your dad's 3d printer and take it to school to see if anyone knows what it is.

What I like about minecraft is that you spend out of game time planning your next in game action... what am I going to explore or build, or simply trying to explain it to someone. Sometimes planning to meet friends, sometimes going on your own. Leaving things for others to find... you know, like signs, structures or castle ruins. There hopefully will will be achievements that are more than saying how many credits you have or showing off your latest ship purchase.

Hopefully Dangerous will be of interest to more folk than just us backers.

 

[Lestat]

What... like this?

LOL Cool.

 

[JeffRyan]

I stand by what I said in the conclave. It's a niche game, it won't appeal to everyone but it'll appeal to people who like this niche in every age group. We seriously under-estimate kids today.

 

[Darren Grey]

I stand by what I said in the conclave. It's a niche game, it won't appeal to everyone but it'll appeal to people who like this niche in every age group. We seriously under-estimate kids today.

Hear hear! Remember everyone, we're a niche in our own age groups

 

[erikfinnegan]

Thanks for your thoughts.

My OP is obviously pointed to get an idea across. Don't get me wrong : I adore the style of ELITE and the poetic energy it unleashes. I want the game to succeed.

Nonetheless, I am looking at what I am enjoying most playing these days, being 38 myself and having played the original ELITE : Minecraft really kicks it in the way you can make the world your own. GTA is a winner since it can, thanks to being a single-player game, tightly weave a story around me.

I want to agree with you that ELITE need not have building; maybe even that it is against the original idea. ( While some mining outpost that you can shape and sculpt with half a dozen modules wouldn't hurt, would it ? ) Still, to feel attached to the game world, I need my actions to have lasting repercussions. Something that I can look back onto, and something that others can recognize my "life in game" from.

Maybe such is a map of explored wonders.

Maybe such are headlines in in-game newspapers reflecting my deeds.

Maybe such are my commander's quarters with a map of explored wonders and headline news put up at the walls...

 

[Captain N]

Newsfeeds reporting notable player actions is something that has been talked about by the devs and discussed in the DDF.

So is an evolving universe that responds to player action.

So are locations that can be discovered through exploration.

 

[kilvenny]

My lad is a Mindcraft convert, what interests me is that part of the fascination appears to be building with his mates (they are always on Skype) and he watches endless crafting videos seeing other peoples creations. In other words its not just the building its the social aspect and seeing what others have done that develops the appeal.
At the moment I am unclear what playing multiplayer will mean exactly, there will be no player faction element so what is the exact purpose. You cannot build anything so there seems no co-operative long term purpose. Maybe I missed something. Can someone enlighten me?