General / Off-Topic Le prix de la liberté

[Surfinjo]

More of this is what's needed. There is a pervasive acceptance of the attitudes of fundamentalists in the Islamic world.

Quite.

I recall a trip I made to Africa in the early 90s. I met quite a few Muslims, none particularly devout, but as decent as you or I.

The hostility many were expressing even then toward non-Muslims was really quite astonishing. Their minds had been filled with such nonsense.

It had changed so dramatically since the late 70s. It really has been a long term concerted effort by a few to spread fear and resentment.

It's difficult for the Imams. While they are generally quite highly trained, certainly to the same level as CoE or RC Priests, like most of them, their training and life experience is limited.

Unlike Priests, Imams are usually appointed by a committee of Mosque worthies and can loose their posts if those worthies say so.

The realities are beginning to permeate throughout the Muslim community and this is reflected in those Imams who are prepared to speak out.

On a hopeful side, we can be pretty sure this Imam is speaking for the majority of his membership, possibly several thousand strong.

 

[FuzzySpider]

More of this is what's needed. There is a pervasive acceptance of the attitudes of fundamentalists in the Islamic world.

Islam as a religion has absolutely nothing to do with any of this. This is about race and cultural identity.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/03/trump-cruz-brussels-isis/475005/

If many European countries struggle to integrate their Muslim immigrants, Belgium does a particularly poor job. The unemployment rate for Belgians of North and sub-Saharan African descent is between 40 and 50 percent. Last year, the BBC reported that of Antwerp’s 2,600 police officers, only 22 are non-white. In 2011, Belgium became the first country in Europe to ban the veil nationwide.

In an essay last year, the Nigerian-born writer Chika Unigwe, who lived for many years in Belgium, noted that even non-white people born there are often described as “foreigners.” She concluded that, “Assimilation, for a Belgian with non-European roots, is a near-impossible task.”


All this is terrific news for ISIS, which has called for eliminating the “grey zone” which allows Muslims to remain true to their faith while also living peacefully in the West.

It is second only to France in how it has treated its Muslim inhabitants as unwelcome and unwanted outsiders. Both of these countries now have hotbeds of terrorism from this particular demographic.

If people are oppressed, feel vilified, feel humiliated and treated poorly by the state in which they live, there are always consequences.

 

[metatheurgist]

OK, I'll modify my statement. There is a pervasive acceptance of the attitudes of fundamentalists everywhere there are Muslims.

If they feel they are treated badly, the answer is to act within the system to improve it. It's not to listen the violence mongers. There's no excuse for it whatsoever.

 

[FuzzySpider]

OK, I'll modify my statement. There is a pervasive acceptance of the attitudes of fundamentalists everywhere there are Muslims.

Religious fundamentalism is a negative predictor of terrorism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_to_Win#Ch._10:_The_Demographic_Profile_of_Suicide_Terrorists

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJl2-AdLt48

https://youtu.be/Nn8TpLgjCzc?t=218


Fundamentalism isn't the problem. It isn't even a factor. The question of someones religion has merely become the dividing line in this particular struggle because we have singled out one particular religious demographic.

If they feel they are treated badly, the answer is to act within the system to improve it. It's not to listen the violence mongers. There's no excuse for it whatsoever.

They can't. The system doesn't want them, and they can not improve it. Look at your statement above:

"There is a pervasive acceptance of the attitudes of fundamentalists everywhere there are Muslims."

Once again we single out a particular group and hold them accountable for the actions of a few, then we basically punish the lot, and really expect things to get better not worse. Let me try a little thought experiment here.....

What if I said I have no sympathy for Belgium in this case? What if I told you I think such actions are justified? And one other thing, let's say I look like this:

Spoiler

What a horrible person I am, right? Probably a typical internet troll who just has a nasty streak, right?

Now, what if I said I have no sympathy for Belgium in this case? What if I told you I think such actions are justified? And one other thing, let's say I look like this:

Spoiler

Be completely honest here, does that provoke the same emotional response? Or does it take on a more sinister aspect?

There is a wedge being hammered down between Muslims and the rest of the population of Europe, and it isn't being hammered by Muslims but by far-right elements in the EU. They are taking advantage of the situation in order to hammer that wedge further and further, and the more that wedge becomes entrenched the worse and worse the situation becomes, which is feeding the problem.

 

[Patrick_68000]

It is second only to France in how it has treated its Muslim inhabitants as unwelcome and unwanted outsiders. Both of these countries now have hotbeds of terrorism from this particular demographic. If people are oppressed, feel vilified, feel humiliated and treated poorly by the state in which they live, there are always consequences.

In what world you live ? This is not certainly the case of France

 

[Yaffle]

The only thing about France I can even begin to guess that you mean is the concept of laïcité which is similar to the US separation of religion from state.

I am unaware of France in particular being xenophobic towards any particular religion, at least any more or less than the average developed nation.

 

[Patrick_68000]

The only thing about France I can even begin to guess that you mean is the concept of laïcité which is similar to the US separation of religion from state.

I am unaware of France in particular being xenophobic towards any particular religion, at least any more or less than the average developed nation.

Yes it's true

 

[FuzzySpider]

In what world you live ? This is not certainly the case of France

I live in this world. And as someone who sucks at terraforming I am stuck in this world. As a result I try to find out about what's really going on in the world, not just what has been going on in the last week.

2011:

http://www.npr.org/2011/04/11/135305409/frances-burqa-ban-adds-to-anti-muslim-climate

2012:

http://www.france24.com/en/20121120...asing-alarmingly-national-front-anti-semitism

http://www.spiegel.de/international...caricatures-and-anti-islam-film-a-857285.html

2013:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-islam-idUSBRE9620Z420130703

2015:

http://shoebat.com/2015/05/15/mayor...aying-we-must-ban-the-muslim-faith-in-france/

http://time.com/3659241/paris-terror-attack-muslim-islam/

http://bennorton.com/france-hit-by-flood-of-anti-muslim-terrorist-attacks/

 

[Surfinjo]

OK, I'll modify my statement. There is a pervasive acceptance of the attitudes of fundamentalists everywhere there are Muslims.

If they feel they are treated badly, the answer is to act within the system to improve it. It's not to listen the violence mongers. There's no excuse for it whatsoever.

Respectfully, those who commit violent acts are a very small minority.

It's sadly, not particularly difficult for an enigmatic psychopath to collect an impressive following, even among normally intelligent people.

We have seen this happening repeatedly over the years, with tragic results. Jim Jones. Heaven's Gate, Aum Shinrikyo.

There are at least 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. We need to keep a sense of proportion here. These are a minority of thugs.

What is different, as highlighted in the article, is that the latest gang, Isis, has taken it upon themselves to essentially, excommunicate those Muslims who don't conform to its dictates.

But these remain a gang of thugs whose leaders are motivated by a cynical ambition to ingratiate themselves. Their distorted claims about Islam are no more accurate than those of Branch Dravidian or khmer rouge.

 

[metatheurgist]

Respectfully, those who commit violent acts are a very small minority.

It's sadly, not particularly difficult for an enigmatic psychopath to collect an impressive following, even among normally intelligent people.

We have seen this happening repeatedly over the years, with tragic results. Jim Jones. Heaven's Gate, Aum Shinrikyo.

There are at least 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. We need to keep a sense of proportion here. These are a minority of thugs.

What is different, as highlighted in the article, is that the latest gang, Isis, has taken it upon themselves to essentially, excommunicate those Muslims who don't conform to its dictates.

But these remain a gang of thugs whose leaders are motivated by a cynical ambition to ingratiate themselves. Their distorted claims about Islam are no more accurate than those of Branch Dravidian or khmer rouge.

I don't disagree. The problem is fundamentalism doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists in a community and it is the community's responsibility to slap it down at every opportunity. When the majority stay silent, or don't act to oppose the violence mongers, when they implicitly support them, when they let them spout their garbage in their places of worship, when they let them take and keep positions of political and social power - that's a problem. It's the pervasive attitude that they believe the fundamentalists are right on some level that lets this continue.

 

[Surfinjo]

I don't disagree. The problem is fundamentalism doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists in a community and it is the community's responsibility to slap it down at every opportunity. When the majority stay silent, or don't act to oppose the violence mongers, when they implicitly support them, when they let them spout their garbage in their places of worship, when they let them take and keep positions of political and social power - that's a problem. It's the pervasive attitude that they believe the fundamentalists are right on some level that lets this continue.

Yes it does.

There was a time, only a few years ago, when many truly believed that Muslims were seeking world domination, that their Koran said this or that. That we must all fear Islam.

I don't think most of us believe that now. Certainly not on this forum. We may not all have read the Koran but few believe many of the more silly and extreme claims we once did.

The way to defeat fanatics is to ensure enough understand the truth that the liars won't succeed.

If we can educate ourselves that Muslims don't want to harm us, then I'm sure we can educate Muslims to know we don't mean them any harm.

Once the fear has gone, all the psychopaths have left are the voices in their silly little heads

 

[FuzzySpider]

It exists in a community and it is the community's responsibility to slap it down at every opportunity. When the majority stay silent, or don't act to oppose the violence mongers, when they implicitly support them, when they let them spout their garbage in their places of worship, when they let them take and keep positions of political and social power - that's a problem. It's the pervasive attitude that they believe the fundamentalists are right on some level that lets this continue.

Firstly, as I already pointed out, religious fundamentalism is a negative predictor of involvement in the Jihad according to the scientific research done on the subject. This idea that Islam is in some way behind terrorism is at odds with reality. I've already provided the data on that topic and you can go read it if you are actually interested.

Secondly, when Muslims do speak out against such acts they are generally ignored. Read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_attitudes_towards_terrorism#Condemnation_and_opposition

And while you're at it read this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ndash-because-he-was-too-extreme-2153057.html

Thirdly, what you say is hypocrisy. Do you, for example, feel responsible for the Iraq war? Have you done enough to stop your own community from committing violent acts against other people? When was the last time you spoke out against this?

http://www.wired.com/2011/09/fbi-muslims-radical/

Or this?

Spoiler

Or this?

http://www.thewire.com/politics/2013/10/saddest-words-congresss-briefing-drone-strikes/71048/

Fourtly, I agree entirely with the principle of your argument. Allowing prejudice and bigotry of other cultures to exist based upon either circular logic or outright lies is completely immoral. But if that's the case... well that's why I am posting.

 

[Surfinjo]

In case we might think its over for now:

At least 50 people have been killed and many others injured in an explosion at a park in the eastern Pakistani city of Lahore, officials say.
It happened in the early evening when the park was crowded with families.
Police told the BBC it appeared to be a suicide bomb. No group has said it was behind the blast.
There is speculation that Christian families out for the Easter weekend may have been the target, says the BBC's Shaimaa Khalil, in Lahore.
All the major hospitals in the area have been put on an emergency footing, local media report.
The explosion appears to have been at the main gate to the Gulshan-e-Iqbal park in an area where cars are usually left - and a short distance from the children's swings.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-35908512

 

[Yaffle]

What is wrong with people? Why is it so hard not to kill one another for a change?

Today we are Pakistan.

 

[Surfinjo]

What is wrong with people? Why is it so hard not to kill one another for a change?

Today we are Pakistan.

Yes.

The article you previously linked to and which I will repeat her make the points though. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

In the case of these Christians celebrating Easter and the Muslim shop keeper in Glasgow who wished people a Happy Easter, as most Muslims will do of course, the issue is another that has festered over a number of years.

I recall 12 and 13 years ago listening to some Muslims claiming they were not bound by the edict of Muhammad and the Koran to respect Christians because Christians are polytheists. In Islam this is known as Shirk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)

They claim that since Christians worship God Jesus and the Virgin Mary (according to the Koran 5:116) they loose their protection under the Koran since Shirk is a greater sin. I recall having an argument where some Muslims claimed it was impossible for God to the in two places at once.

It's all very confusing but exemplifies the why these fanatics have had their thinking distorted by psychopaths.

 

[Patrick_68000]

When we think that the Pakistan has the atomic bomb, it is cold in the back

 

[Patrick_68000]

"We carried out the attack in Lahore because Christians are our target," said Ehsanullah Ehsan, the spokesman of the Jamaat-ul-Ahrar, a faction of the Taliban. "We will commit other attacks of this type in the future," he added.