Let's Fix: SCBs

I must disagree here. Nerf boosters, yes, but SCBs? The current implementation is fine as is. The ultra long fights last because of G5 DDs with 145% multiplier, generating as much acceleration to make it mathmatically impossible to hit with considerable force from beyond 500m - 1000m.
That said, we rely on either hitscan weaponary (that have much less DPS overall) or on long range blueprints (that have less DPS compared to OC or other bluepritns as well).

The origin of the ultra long TTKs does not come from the SCBs but from the insane agility plus hitpoint inflation in regards to base strangth (both, hull and shields).

HD stacked FDLs or Cutters tanking between 3k and 11.6k MJs is beyond any ammo capacity, even with high cap or OC. SCBs only contribute to a minor fraction of these eHPs. They are mos teffective in high resistances builds as each MJ you restore is multiplied by SYS pips and resistances, multiplaying the eHPs from SCBs by around 4.
That said, Bi-Weaves with their utterly fast charge rate also contribute to hitpoint inflation. They technically generate ~ 6 - 7 MJs/s which you have to multiply by 4 again (SYS pips, resistances) and you end up with a broken regeneration rate of ~ 25 - 30 MJ/s (eHPs) ... which is about the raw DPS of a C3F beamlaser.

With that in mind, I would stay away from SCBs (especially for large ships) and take a look on HD stacking (both, hull and boosters), resistances (resistance boosters and HD HRPs) and FCR (to make it less OP against big ships ... change the FCR so it deals raw SCB MJ damage ... like 120 MJ/shot. This would reward hittign small targets but is less effective against big ones ... big ships could sustain more shots but are easier to hit anyways.).
Change the HD and resistance bluepritn so they don't give resistances across the board but one or two resistance types (like bulkheads) at the cost of the other resistance type and total hull/shield strength.

For example:

"Reinforced Shield Booster": +12% kinetic r. +16% explosive r. -8% thermal r. -20% shield boost multiplier (from 20% to 16%).
"Thermal Resistant Shield Booster: -8% kinetic r. -12% explosive r. +32% thermal r. -20% shield boost multiplier.
"Overcharged Shield Booster": +50% shield boost multiplier -10% thermal r. -6% kinetic r. -4% explosive r.

"Reactive hull reinforcement": +22% kinetic r. +28% explosive r. -34% thermal r. -20% hull reinforcement.
"Military hull reinforcement": +50% hull reinforcement -8% kinetic r. -4% thermal r. -12% explosive r.

etc.

This way we would have significant choices to make instead of just having a hand full of "go-to" blueprints as they have basically no downside.

If this owuld take place, we would see builds again that are actual hybrid and have strengths and weaknesses instead of overall protection against everything. For example a kinetic resistant shield loadout with a thermal resistant hull loadout underneath make it still an all-round build, but the playstyle will need to be adapted for each opponent and their damage type loadout. Especially challenging in wing fights as you'd have to adapt to whatever is currently shooting at you.
Weak thermal shields? All pips to weapons and engage if under laser fire. Or just facetank against multicannon builds as your shields are suited better against it. Shields down? let them recharge vs your laser opponent and avoid fire from these multicannons now.

However, as it stands now we all have ~ 50% shield and ~ 40% hull resistances which is why PAs are the meta now and rails are used for their special effect to bypass SCBs and hulltanks by killing the cells and later the moduels as they have far less hitpoints and can't be protected by anything except. TLBs help it a little but doesn't protect you from skilled blind snipers that just snipe your modules without targetting. With TLBs being basically the only defense to super pens, PAs move even more into the focus.



Conclusion: SCBs are fine as they are now. The real problem is too even resistances and HD stacking for both, shields and hulls. Removign the "across the board" blueprints and adding loadout choices to be needed would created weaknesses for each ship and allow for appropiate counterplay without the outcome of "rock-paper-scissors" as we have seen in 2.1++ as you'd still be able to protect your ship all-round but not at a single defense type (shield, hull, hitbox, agility, etc.). You'd be forced to adapt and use certain defense types/strategies instead of just soaking up ALL kinds of damage with a single all-round defense strategy/system.
 
Hm...this idea may not be popular, but I'll post it anyway. What if SCB's only boosted our passive regen by a huge amount? I'm talking about the slow regen that occurs when not taking damage while shields are still up, for anyone who needed the clarification. They'd still activate for a certain duration and cause a large buildup of heat, but they could be effectively countered even by normal weapons. Allowing non-horizons players to have a counter to them is only a boon to the health of the game if you ask me.

Anyway, feedback cascade would simply cut the duration down by a certain amount so that even a second or two of fire could cut down on the heals. Simply put, normal weapons would require constant pressure to keep the regen from happening, while feedback cascade rails remain the best option for reducing SCB effectiveness. This emphasizes strategic timing for firing SCB's and evasive maneuvering. Large ships would have a hard time avoiding fire, but that's the point. Their SCB spam would be directly nerfed, reducing hitpoint inflation by a bit.

This change helps reduce SCB effectiveness against skilled pilots, reduces the requirement for feedback rails in PvP, and slightly addresses hitpoint inflation. Also, duration and heat generated may need to be tuned for this change, but I think it's a novel idea.

What do you all think?

(Very interested in OP's thoughts about this, but I do want all perspectives)
 
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The issue I see with SCBs is not explicitly SCBs themselves but instead the feedback cascade special. Feedback cascade, even after the nerfs it is still incredibly strong at negating SCBs, which in turn has allowed SCBs to become incredibly strong as they are countered so effectively. This strong effect + strong counter has created a hard counter scenario where SCBs are either a waste of space or a 5x increase to shield effective health - there's no real middle ground. Hard counters aren't healthy for loadout options, instead softer counters that can be worked into a variety of builds encourage more experimentation and allow for more options.

I feel that the removal/reworking of Feedback Cascade coupled with an according rebalance of SCBs themselves around this absence of direct counters would be the best solution. Quite what needs to be done for the SCBs themselves, I don't know, but there's a lot of good ideas cropping up in this thread. My own personal suggestion to throw in would be for SCBs to not only generate heat (which is mostly a non-issue due to heatsink launchers), but to also inflict direct damage to the shield generator (or even distributing damage between the generator and the SBs) which would encourage the use of B-grade shields and the double braced specials rather than just going for maximum performance, as well as giving more uses for AFMUs even for shield heavy builds; I don't know whether MRPs should help against this damage though, as it wouldn't make sense for an MRP to protect against effectively overvolting the shield generator.
 
My fix for SCBs:
Remove all passive and active defensive modules from the game and be done with it.

I second this, while we are at it, remove every ship from the game except the sidewinder, remove all travel times, and give everyone 10 billion credits. More than 90% of the posts in this forum can be distilled into "I want the game to play my way" generally from folks who bought ED without a clue and did not know what sort of game Frontier were aiming to make.

SCB's are fine, if you are going to spam scb's you are going have issues with heat, and that generally means compromises to engineering or giving up utility slots for heat sinks. There is one ship which is a little silly, the Cutter, that arguably needs a balance pass. However, beyond that, if someone spends hundreds of millions on a ship and it's outfitting, then engineers it out the wazoo, it should have advantages over cheaper ships. That player has a lot more to lose when things go 's up.

For the most part, ship balance in combat is fine, there are some weapon types and sizes that need pulling up by the short and curlies so they have real applications in a fight against a similarly specced ship. IMHO, the damage potential from medium - huge is still too narrow, and I would also like to see some changes to tracking on gimbals and to a greater extent turrets so big ships cannot pop small without a care, and I think canons could do with a buff to projectile speed; but little else.
 
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I used to be annoyed by PvE shield cell banks. Then I got two engineered beam lasers on my cobra. They really don’t bother me any more.

Lasers were “meant” to take down shields and they do a damn fine job even in a small ship.

I see a lot of people complaining about shields and then hitting them with other things.

That would be fine, but engineering resistances into shields exists.

The only reason this is masked is because FDev doesn't let NPCs use engineering in an intelligent way. If they let NPCs do sensible engineering even to just grade 3, this stuff would all be much more apparent to everyone.
 
The current implementation is good and if you are in a slow ship then use long range weapons and for your feedback cascade rails. Try adapting rather than complaining about something good. Your proposal would defeat the purpose of having feedback cascade at all by the way it would be redundant, if the shields are down then superpentrator is all you need. And people would go staight for the generator itself.
 
I don't mean any hostilities or offence by this;

But didn't you recently take out a Cutter in a Viper, while taking fire from other ships and pretty much succeed?

Someone else bullied a Corvette owner (admittedly they didn't seem to know what they were doing as much as you Pro-Pilots but still) in a Sidewinder just recently...

Personally I don't think small ships should have an easier time against larger ships than that, it's comparable to a Humvee taking on a tank. Excellent piloting has been proven to be able to take on lesser skilled pilots in larger and tankier ships. So you're looking for insta-kill? Group ganking would be made even easier.

16 seconds is enough to annihilate modules, even with 3 MRPs (need some HRPs), even annihilate hull. There would be zero point in SCBs if they could only be used as a bandage instead of a preventative.

For what it's worth, I PVE only, I prefer Medium ships and don't prioritise use of SCBs. I own a Cutter, a Corvette, and I've used SCBs of course, hell I have one on my Chiefy as a pure backup incase things get hairy.
I'm just airing my opinion on how this will affect everyone, from my perspective.

If bigger ships with bigger shields are the issue, (this is something I was thinking about recently, hearing all the polava everywhere) then simply make the boosts they receive from Boosters and SCBs diminish the higher the size, small ships still have protection they need, bigger ships aren't as OP.
However, it's already been shown how little these mean to experienced pilots with the right tools, so.

I just get the impression that things like this are because PVPers want quicker and easier kills, are fed up of their prey running or taking too long to kill etc. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I mean, you can't synthesise SCB ammo, so they're gonna run out sooner or later, if they've got more then they've opted for Shield Tanking instead and will be pretty much royally fluffed when their Shield drops.

What about some extra ability of a KWS to display how much Countermeasures your opponent has, like Chaff/HS and SBC ammo and sizes? That way it's not a guessing game for a viable Hunter, and you can plan your tactics and strategy accordingly.

I think you're right on the quick kills thing for the people always suggestibg way to make shields weaker, they just want quick instant gratification kills with no stratedgy or skill required.
 
hey Frenotx, firstly, thanks for all your prior research into game mechanics. It frankly was a great gift to the community at a time when good info was hard to come by, thanks!


I do think now is a bit premature to be looking at SCBs, I dont think the numerous changes to weapons & special effects have had enough time to bed-in. Ships at 2% heat using thermal vent beams, negating the need for heatsinks for SCB use, springs to mind..

In anycase, the shield strength issue is a longstanding one, and as things stand, some PvP encounters can be over 25mins long, which is sufficient time in a fight to lose the will to live & to never want to go through it all again. My preferred solution to this is to reduce total considered shield MJ by a lot, but increase the resistance to alpha strikes (from gank attacks, whether thats from PvP wings or gankspawns in a CZ is up to your play flavour)

Id do this by reducing the SCB regen rate by a lot (ie 50%) increasing the active protection SCBs provide while operational, and to avoid SCBs being an 'invulnerability button' firstly, not overdo the enhanced protection, but also reduce the max number of SCBs to 2, as I noticed has already been suggested.

Secondly, id reduce the max number of shield boosters, scalable to ship class/size. so reduce this to 3/4/5 for small, med & large ship respectively. This would notably affect couriers, fdls & the big 3 ships.

Both these changes increase the significance of the base shield strength (by reducing the other shield-strength factors), so this gives a passive buff to prismatics as the strongest shield available. To balance this, increase the new reduced SCB regen rate, by the modded regen rate of the base shield. This gives extra regen rate to A class & especially biweave shields (when using an SCB) so goes some way to avoid a universal prismatic meta.

As there is no getting away from these changes still being an SCB nerf, id reduce the mass of all scbs by 50%, so they can be seen as a lightweight alternative to heavy-armour stacking.

A final change id like to see accompanying all this, would be cascade rails to reduce the time remaining on a triggered SCB by 50%, but not reduce the effectiveness in that remaining time. & yeah, that would be either a one-shot deal or a max 50% from say a med rail or two small rails. This makes the visual cue of an SCB mean it is in full effect. Cleaner, simpler, more intuitive & giving direct feedback. Less guessing/assuming, more tactics, more skill being rewarded.
 
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I think you're right on the quick kills thing for the people always suggestibg way to make shields weaker, they just want quick instant gratification kills with no stratedgy or skill required.

You have that backwards: a pilot in a medium/small vessel going after big ships who're safely tucked behind a shield pool that makes them impervious to a sustained barrage of fire for a period that can be measured in tens of minutes is a pretty solid definition of "skill." On the other hand, people flying behind a shield wall are the opposite.
 
My fix for SCBs:
Remove all passive and active defensive modules from the game and be done with it.

Exactly. Shield an armor is enough.
If some ships get to weak with only shield and armor, they should get a buff on the base values. That benefits all. Not just those that spend all their time engineering.
 

verminstar

Banned
Suggestions like this make me cringe because I play pve only in open...if I hadnt had a scb fitted, I would have a fair bit less credits right now...saved my bacon more than once. Making the sheilds weaker would enable the griefers to get more and easier kills which would make me think twice about continuing to play open. The novelty of a couple rebuys at 25m a pop wouldnt last long methinks.

This is just a way fer pvprs to get easy kills because they got scb taken away from those who need them most. If you dont need them and dont use them, then dont...but others do and I suspect most of those wanting scb removed are themselves pvprs which would merely confirm that stark conclusion
 
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