Let's Fix: SCBs

And I think that's quite in line with what Frenotx is looking into - but he's doing so quite correctly by investigating each part.

If we refused to look at individual components because there are also other mechanics that are unbalanced, then hell, ED would never get updated ;)

That's the idea. When I was faced with a complicated problem, my father always said (god rest him): "Son, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time."
 
That's the idea. When I was faced with a complicated problem, my father always said (god rest him): "Son, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time."

This is where I fail all the time, I start with an idea like the HRP and Armour idea I posted last then I find more and more things that needs to change in one way or another to make it all work and it just snowballs so much I get overwhelmed and give up.
 
That's the idea. When I was faced with a complicated problem, my father always said (god rest him): "Son, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time."

I was gonna rep you for this one, but I'm out. IOU.

@Stitch, those are some solid suggestions btw.

My own take on this isn't very technical (I only started using feedback rails this week!), just a grunt reporting from the front lines that fighting big ships in its current state isn't fun or rewarding. I don't really see how it can be for the pilots of the big ships themselves, either. I don't want to nerf anybody's ship into uselessness, I just want the fun factor to go up a little and make it so the encounters aren't always so dreadfully, tediously predictable. Carry on all you smarter people than me; loving the conversation.
 
Last edited:
That's the idea. When I was faced with a complicated problem, my father always said (god rest him): "Son, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time."

The important thing for me is to ensure each mechanic/component is balanced to its ideal place in the game, as opposed to balancing other (and potentially already balanced) components to the level of something unbalanced.

I cringe so hard inside when I see someone mention something like "SCBs and shields are too much, let's inflate hull defenses to the same level".

*ahem* anyway, mini rant over :D
 
Last edited:
Fair enough.

One easy way to stop SCB's from making shield capacity irrelevant is to change them from recharging a specific MJ value, to instead charging a percentage of the generator's value (not the overall shield value); Doing that would isolate SCBs from heavy-duty boosters whilst making the size of your generator relevant again. FDev attempted to balance shield/hull ratios on ships by adding this shield multiplier to a ship - and SCB's effectively ignore that in their current state. If SCB values were tied to the base shield generator value, they would once again be using this shield multiplier that FDev intruduced solely for balance.

You could also change SCB's such that they can't be fitted to nomal cargo/military slots - but create a sub-slot for generators (like the SRV/SLF hangars) that has only one slot available and is specifically for an SCB. That would stop people from stacking 5 of the damn things and limit people to one SCB.
 
Last edited:
Meh, as I said in the other thread: just remove shields entirely. Shields are boring, they protect your modules from damage and don't allow for proper degradation of your combat performance as you start taking hits. Module damage management should be at the core of combat, rather than timing your health potions gulps.
 
I'd like to see total numbers reduced before SCBs are touched. Some ships rely on them as for some stupid reason FDev decided to make their hulls butter soft.

Anaconda and Python come to mind. You lose shields in a fight you are in DEEP Kim chii
 
Meh, as I said in the other thread: just remove shields entirely. Shields are boring, they protect your modules from damage and don't allow for proper degradation of your combat performance as you start taking hits. Module damage management should be at the core of combat, rather than timing your health potions gulps.

We could remove combat entirely, that would fix the problem with Shields, Boosters, SCB's, Weapon Secondary effects, over-engineering, hull-tanking, griefing, and all the p---ing and moaning that goes on every single day, thread after thread.

A wise person once said: "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."
 
We could remove combat entirely, that would fix the problem with Shields, Boosters, SCB's, Weapon Secondary effects, over-engineering, hull-tanking, griefing, and all the p---ing and moaning that goes on every single day, thread after thread.

A wise person once said: "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

Gooooooood point; We need gun control in space.
The problem is that people keep getting shot at. Rather than trying to make sure that everyone has a fair chance in a gun fight we could just take away all the guns!
 
I don't know about you but as soon as shields drop i kill the powerplant and in the 16 seconds before the shields are able to start charging again one can have destroyed far more than just the power plant thats enough time to take out nearly every vital module.
 
...the problem of SCBs just not being fun to fight against, or of them being countered so severely by feedback cascade...

But honestly, WHY aren't they "fun to fight against"? Is that just a matter of your preferred fighting style? Having SCBs in the mix, in the absence of a devastating counter like fb cascade, most definitely biases things towards longer, more strategic engagements - moving closer to a more "naval battle" combat style than the faster dynamic "air battle" style, if you like. But wouldn't you almost expect that when the larger ships that can mount heftier shields and several SCBs are involved? Rather than tweak and balance everything into one way of fighting, wouldn't you rather have the spectrum wide enough that every commander has to admit that "some combats just aren't going to suit my fighting style" rather than the way it currently seems to break between "combat pilots who all fly the same way" and "everyone else"?
 
One of the more interesting solutions I've seen proposed to this problem is allowing certain weapons to hit exterior modules through shields. The new Guardian weapons are one idea, another might be allowing Torpedoes or even Missiles to do this. The reasoning behind this:

- Most of the new Guardian weapons appear to be a curiosity at best, while largely considered useless to the meta as a whole. This would give them some new utility.

- Alternately to the above: For the most part, the game's anti-missile countermeasures are ignored. Nobody's really scared of missile weapons; occasionally someone will carry an ECM to deflect torpedoes, but Point Defense is considered to be not worth carrying at the expense of just shoving another booster or two on. Making Missiles part of the anti-shield meta means that either the giant shield-tanks have to start dropping a booster or two to carry missile defense, or deal with potential loss of boosters.

- Being able to destroy Shield Boosters through someone's shield means that they'll progressively lose Resistances as well as maximum MJ as the boosters themselves fail. However, this is not as drastic as the immediate and almost irreparable failure of shield due to Resonant Cascade mines or Torpedoes.

- Counterplay options are available for the shield tank that's at risk of booster loss. Powering down a Booster to repair it via AFMU would be entirely possible. AFMUs are not an effective counter to Resonant Cascade; even after the shield generator is repaired, it takes ages to regenerate the shield, so nobody bothers carrying an AFMU; either you evade the torps/mines and you're fine, or you retreat.

---------
 
Suggestions like this make me cringe because I play pve only in open...if I hadnt had a scb fitted, I would have a fair bit less credits right now...saved my bacon more than once. Making the sheilds weaker would enable the griefers to get more and easier kills which would make me think twice about continuing to play open. The novelty of a couple rebuys at 25m a pop wouldnt last long methinks.

This is just a way fer pvprs to get easy kills because they got scb taken away from those who need them most. If you dont need them and dont use them, then dont...but others do and I suspect most of those wanting scb removed are themselves pvprs which would merely confirm that stark conclusion

What happened to ye pirate accent?
 
But honestly, WHY aren't they "fun to fight against"? Is that just a matter of your preferred fighting style? Having SCBs in the mix, in the absence of a devastating counter like fb cascade, most definitely biases things towards longer, more strategic engagements - moving closer to a more "naval battle" combat style than the faster dynamic "air battle" style, if you like. But wouldn't you almost expect that when the larger ships that can mount heftier shields and several SCBs are involved? Rather than tweak and balance everything into one way of fighting, wouldn't you rather have the spectrum wide enough that every commander has to admit that "some combats just aren't going to suit my fighting style" rather than the way it currently seems to break between "combat pilots who all fly the same way" and "everyone else"?

The reason its not fun is because after the monolithic slog, these guys wake. I've literally never, not even once, seen one of these guys stick around by choice after that last ring of shield goes pale. As a few others posted there are rare examples, but they are totally outliers, nowhere close to being the rule. So, big criticism of the pilot's, too, in my estimation. Fixing the shield bloat would help this game across the board, but halving the time it takes to get these guys to flee and cutting down on my ammo bills would be at least a minor improvement.
 
Last edited:
One of the more interesting solutions I've seen proposed to this problem is allowing certain weapons to hit exterior modules through shields. The new Guardian weapons are one idea, another might be allowing Torpedoes or even Missiles to do this. The reasoning behind this:

- Most of the new Guardian weapons appear to be a curiosity at best, while largely considered useless to the meta as a whole. This would give them some new utility.

- Alternately to the above: For the most part, the game's anti-missile countermeasures are ignored. Nobody's really scared of missile weapons; occasionally someone will carry an ECM to deflect torpedoes, but Point Defense is considered to be not worth carrying at the expense of just shoving another booster or two on. Making Missiles part of the anti-shield meta means that either the giant shield-tanks have to start dropping a booster or two to carry missile defense, or deal with potential loss of boosters.

- Being able to destroy Shield Boosters through someone's shield means that they'll progressively lose Resistances as well as maximum MJ as the boosters themselves fail. However, this is not as drastic as the immediate and almost irreparable failure of shield due to Resonant Cascade mines or Torpedoes.

- Counterplay options are available for the shield tank that's at risk of booster loss. Powering down a Booster to repair it via AFMU would be entirely possible. AFMUs are not an effective counter to Resonant Cascade; even after the shield generator is repaired, it takes ages to regenerate the shield, so nobody bothers carrying an AFMU; either you evade the torps/mines and you're fine, or you retreat.

---------
Interesting idea. I'd never considered missiles specifically being able to bypass shields. They'd probably need some numbers tweaking (and packhounds would need a look), but I very much like the concept. It would make for more interesting choices when picking your defensive utilities- another shield booster, or some anti-missile systems to protect the boosters I've got? Couple that with ECM being able to break and / or prevent target lock for a few seconds from ships hit by it, and we could get some really cool interactions.

Definitely make sure to throw that idea in the suggestions forum!
 
Look guys, the point of this thread was not to discuss the merit of my particular idea. The thread for that would be the one I made in the suggestions forum. The point of this thread is to try and come up with interesting alternative implementations for SCBs to make them more interesting to use and fight against, and resolve the knife's-edge balance connundrum they are currently in. I don't really want them nerfed, either- I don't think the amount of health they add to the fight is necessarily excessive. In fact, when faced with their counter, they're honestly TOO WEAK.

This is what I want people to think about:
How can we change SCBs such that
1) There an effective module that's a compelling choice when you're equipping your ship
2) Not obvious to "un-fun" to deal with from the other side
3) Have counter-play options (and ways to defend against said counterplay) that involve gameplay and player input, not just special effects and rock-paper-scissors build selection.
4) Are not overly game-changing when no counter is present
5) Are not useless when a counter is present

To be honest, a good start would be to massively reduce their effectiveness while removing or completely reworking feedback cascade. If feedback cascade were to make the railgun deal double damage or something like that to a player with an active SCB, while the SCBs themselves were to be reduced to around 1/2 - 1/3rd of the capacity, then they wouldn't be overpoweringly strong but also wouldn't be hard countered by a single railgun.

Alternatively, if you want to be really clever about them, don't make them recover shield in a constant way over the course of their duration, but instead give them something like a capacitor discharge curve where the discharge rate is proportional to their remaining capacity (or a similar curve, such as exponential decay) while the heat generated remains related to the discharge rate. So a class 7B SCB bank might regenerate 500 MJ per cell over the course of 10 seconds, but you would see half of that capacity in the first few seconds while the rest would be trickled out. A player initially activating a SCB would load a single cell and begin transferring power, while a second activation would eject the spent (or partially spent) cell husk, readying the SCB for another cell. This would keep SCBs as being a bulk store of shield to keep shields topped up during low-intensity fights, while a high intensity fight might only see a player actually using 30% of each cell as they try to maximise their regeneration rate.

For example, a stock 7B SCB has 6 cells each of 539 MJ for a total of 3234 MJ currently, which as we all know is a mind numbing amount to try to bore through. However, if each of those cells were to only provide 200 MJ within the first 5 seconds, 100 MJ in the next 5 seconds, then 50 MJ between seconds 10 and 15 and so on until the cell maxes out at 400 MJ after 30 seconds or so (to ensure that it actually does deplete, there could be an enforced minimum regen rate boost equal to the shield generators actual rate, so even during that final trickle charge they will still help as well as providing a little boost to biweaves for prolonged engagements), although obviously the numbers would require some tweaking as these are just an example. So someone who just wants to recharge after a battle could quite easily pop a cell and enjoy pretty much the same bonus as currently, just that it takes longer. Meanwhile, trying to burst someone's shields down would force them to burn through their cells as they want to take advantage of the spike in power that comes from using a fresh cell, perhaps even only using the first 2-3 seconds of a cell (which would only be 100-150 MJ or so). This would turn shield cell usage into a baiting game, as players don't want to run the risk of being bursted down while also trying to make the most of each cell.
 
Last edited:
The reason its not fun is because after the monolithic slog, these guys wake. I've literally never, not even once, seen one of these guys stick around by choice after that last ring of shield goes pale. As a few others posted there are rare examples, but they are totally outliers, nowhere close to being the rule. So, big criticism of the pilot's, too, in my estimation. Fixing the shield bloat would help this game across the board, but halving the time it takes to get these guys to flee and cutting down on my ammo bills would be at least a minor improvement.

That's fair, and I totally get where you're coming from. Indeed, if we're talking about larger ships having a more "naval" than "aircraft" feel to them this is almost part of that feel - contrary to popular myth a losing ship in a naval battle would much more often withdraw - damaged, massive crew casualties, in danger of becoming unseaworthy and succumbing to the elements but very rarely promptly destroyed - than it would be sunk in the actual battle. One wonders if perhaps the answer to this whole thing would be for ED to introduce some way of "scoring" that defeat of the opponent, driving them into fleeing the field rather than just relying on "you blew it up therefore you won"?
 

sollisb

Banned
Not a PvP player; but it occurs to me that if the SCBs or Shields are modified, won't the new meta then be Hull Tanking, with a wake when the player feels their hull is still viable to escape?
 
Not a PvP player; but it occurs to me that if the SCBs or Shields are modified, won't the new meta then be Hull Tanking, with a wake when the player feels their hull is still viable to escape?
It's possible, but that would be an improvement. A lot more mechanics come into play when fighting vs. hulls. Armour hardness, module targeting, module damage and repair, many special effects, missiles, etc. Additionally, deciding how much hull you're comfortable fighting down to is a lot more... grey, than "Whoop. My shields just fell / are about to fail. Time to go"
 
It's possible, but that would be an improvement. A lot more mechanics come into play when fighting vs. hulls. Armour hardness, module targeting, module damage and repair, many special effects, missiles, etc. Additionally, deciding how much hull you're comfortable fighting down to is a lot more... grey, than "Whoop. My shields just fell / are about to fail. Time to go"

Indeed. Though, the elefant in the room is that powerplant sniping pretty much bypass the whole point of having armour in the first place. Just hit that one module enough and game over.
IMO the fact that it's the go to target in 90% of the cases in PvE (for PvP I can't really say) point to it as being an overwhelming imbalance.

I think removing the death on hit at 0% would help*. Cutting power by 50% is already quite nasty. Give players a reason to target the shield generator, SCB's and other such modules.


*And make sense. A fusion reactor has such low density plasma that any breach of containment will just shut it down with little harm. No risk of runaway reactions and other such things ;P
 
Back
Top Bottom