Let's Fix: Shields-Down Combat

[Frenotx]

One of the big things that always comes up whenever shield changes are discussed is, "Well as soon as your shield fails, you're as good as dead." It certainly true that things get a lot more... risky when your shield fails. Considering people's insistence that shields must stay up for 100% of the fight however, I'd say things might get a little too risky.

As such, I'd like us to work together to do something about it. I have some of my own ideas that might help, but last time I mentioned my own ideas in a thread like this, too much of the discussion become focused on debating my idea instead of working together to come up with new ones. Instead, I'll just suggest a post format. I'd love if people would chime in with the following structure:

The biggest challenges faced by someone with their shields down are:

1. Challenge 1
2. Challenge 2
3. etc.

I think the following changes could be made reduce the challenges, and make shields-down combat more viable:

1. Solution 1
2. Solution 2
3. etc.

Let's see what all everyone's thoughts are on this! If you come up with an idea and are particularly pleased with it, don't forget to post it in the suggestions forum. If you do, please include a link to the suggestions forum post so we can go there and voice our support / concerns. Remember everyone: rep does nothing to help make a post visible to the devs; only leaving a comment on the post helps!

 

[Andovar]

The biggest challenges faced by someone with their shields down are:

1. Critical module failure/malfunction (thrusters, PD, etc)

I think the following changes could be made reduce the challenges, and make shields-down combat more viable:

1. HRP mods that significantly reduce weapon penetration. (and use some handwavium to include thrusters as an 'internal' module)

I've done minimal PvP, so no idea if this is sensible or viable, but for me, once shields are down, it's usually followed by at least one (or more) module failures. Which quickly turns into a snowball of failure.

 

[Cmdr Ultra]

The Module Reinforcements are a good step in the right direction.

But a lot of the problem is still player behavior. Trying to escape flying in a straight line, Drives exposed to fire.

Perhaps your Drives, FSD could have individual Module reinforcements ( with weight ) specific to that module.
I enjoy fine tuning ships so that would be interesting to me. Risk vs reward. Weight vs speed.

 

[Frenotx]

The biggest challenges faced by someone with their shields down are:

1. Critical module failure/malfunction (thrusters, PD, etc)

I think the following changes could be made reduce the challenges, and make shields-down combat more viable:

1. HRP mods that significantly reduce weapon penetration. (and use some handwavium to include thrusters as an 'internal' module)

I've done minimal PvP, so no idea if this is sensible or viable, but for me, once shields are down, it's usually followed by at least one (or more) module failures. Which quickly turns into a snowball of failure.

What are your thoughts on module reinforcement packages? Have you used them much?

 

[Quantis Trap]

I don't think it's broken and don't think Frontier should spend any more time tweaking it!

There's my suggestion.

 

[Lunchbox1900]

once shields are down, it's usually followed by at least one (or more) module failures. Which quickly turns into a snowball of failure.

This has been my experience tonight. I assumed I was doing something wrong, and came here to get help. Kinda glad to know it's not just me.

 

[Jmanis]

Having been an avid facetanker for a while now, I've never felt anything needs fixing. Two C5 MRPs will prevent significant levels of module failure, three is godly. Now.... MRP engineering would be worth talking about (as would canopy engineering)

Obviously each mrp reduces HRP fits.... but if you're dead in the water at 85% hull integrity, it's wasted HRPs. Get the balance right and mods don't fail till 30% hull integrity.

 

[Andovar]

What are your thoughts on module reinforcement packages? Have you used them much?

Yes, and i suppose it's possible I haven't stacked enough or something. But to me they only seem to briefly delay the inevitable.
Maybe making the module malfunction threshold a little lower could help (i forget what it is now, 75% or something?)

Again, I'm crap at PvP, so take my ideas with a grain of salt.
The bigger issue is probably over-engineered weapons overpowering any equipped MRP's.
Maybe some engineering mods for MRP's? I'm not sure people want more engineering, but it only makes sense to allow equivalent defensive mods to counter all the offensive ones.

 

[Darty]

The biggest challenges faced by someone with their shields down are:

1. Engineers

I think the following changes could be made reduce the challenges, and make shields-down combat more viable:

1. Lets be honest, balance in this game is so broken that it can't be fixed without major nerfing of certain gear, and we know fdev will never do that because sandy's favorite godbuild got nerfed when he was a kid so he is unilaterally against nerfing gear (see grandfathering).

 

[Furnace]

For starters I would like to see two things changed, because module sniping is currently too easy.

A) Core modules with buffed integrity
B) MRP's with more health %

I think the DPS on exposed modules is absolutely ludicrous, and the Engineers with their Special Effects only adds to this insanity with even more random module malfunctioning behavior.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

PvE comments here:

Biggest Problem (with shields down):

1) Getting out of sight while trying to Silent Run. Yes, I know this isn't strictly combat, but it's what I try to do.
The NPC's have a fairly LONG range of visual detection, around 3000m or so, in a wide cone. We have to stay out of visual range for 10 seconds before they reacquire.

2) From the other side, the biggest problem is when they use SCB's and get the damn shield back up. This always seems to happen at 2% Hull.

3) The permanent non-regenerating hull losses. We think of this as a feature, but what would happen if we could repair our hulls?

Solution:

1) The rules against stealthing are too stringent in my view. It prevents using Silent Running/Cold running as a defensive tactic unless you are also very fast to open the range, and/or able to hide for 10 seconds while they look. 2000 m detection for small ships, and say 6 seconds would be more reasonable.

I'd actually like to see more options for a stealth based gameplay, so we could have Destrover vs Submarine a la Balance of Terror fights. But the game might not really be built for a stay quiet while they sensor hunt escapade.

For a time, stealth hull tanks with railguns were the PvP meta. This has completely gone away, which is an indication of an overcorrection in the response. Ideally, it should remain as an optional style of play that is competitive at high skill levels.

2) Well rails with Cascade is the solution, I guess. We have that already. Or we could just DPS it to hell.

One option is a Surrender Beacon. Or a White Flag Protocol. You toggle it on, and your ship halts movement, possibly rebooting all modules. But the aggressor cannot shoot you for ... some seconds? It's a tap-out that stops a rebuy. So people wouldn't have to combat log. Deliberately killing a ship that surrendered could gain a severe penalty.

I think Pirates might like it. If NPC's had such a built in behaviour, they would be easier to disable, and avoid murder bounties.
It might allow more PvP matches, and reduce the rebuy grinding. If 2 pilots want to fight to the death, they could just disable the Beacons.

 

[Frenotx]

For starters I would like to see two things changed, because module sniping is currently too easy.

A) Core modules with buffed integrity
B) MRP's with more health %

I think the DPS on exposed modules is absolutely ludicrous, and the Engineers with their Special Effects only adds to this insanity with even more random module malfunctioning behavior.

My concern with that approach is that if modules get too strong, it will become pointless to snipe them. What if, instead of making them more durable, repairs were made faster? That way it would still be possible to snipe someone's modules out, but they'd be able to repair it fast enough to keep fighting.

 

[[VR] Goooost]

When I rewatch star trek some of the things I like are that there's always a new tactic or solution that shifts the power in those battles. They can divert shields, override systems, target different things, shift weapon harmonics, etc.
Elite fighting has gotten better, and more complex, especially in PVP. But it isn't Trek level yet.

What I really want to see is a sort of fighting system where it's less like a military dogfight and more like a wizard battle in space. A dynamic where you can never really know exactly who you're up against until you face them.

 

[fsdraconis]

The shield problem is only a problem in pvp.

The real problem is we don't have anywhere to 'hide' or duck for cover. So once you lose shields, the battle goes from a 0 cost, to a negative.

This will change the entire dynamic of the game. Changing it so drastically, again. Will just leave players wondering why they put in all that effort and interest just to have it turned into junk.

As long as armor does not need to be eaten through just to damage a component. This isn't a supportive method of game play.

Look at NPC's right now with their 0 health power plants able to keep on fighting. Now you expect players to "want" to get into combat where there shields are more useless than useful?

You actually expect that there won't be a tsunami of annoyance when even more of the game gets broken?

Maybe instead pvp players versus players just need a damage multiplier versus shields. The more shields the target has, the more damage you deal to shields. But the pve game does not get borked.

 

[Frenotx]

The shield problem is only a problem in pvp.

The real problem is we don't have anywhere to 'hide' or duck for cover. So once you lose shields, the battle goes from a 0 cost, to a negative.

This will change the entire dynamic of the game. Changing it so drastically, again. Will just leave players wondering why they put in all that effort and interest just to have it turned into junk.

As long as armor does not need to be eaten through just to damage a component. This isn't a supportive method of game play.

Look at NPC's right now with their 0 health power plants able to keep on fighting. Now you expect players to "want" to get into combat where there shields are more useless than useful?

You actually expect that there won't be a tsunami of annoyance when even more of the game gets broken?

Maybe instead pvp players versus players just need a damage multiplier versus shields. The more shields the target has, the more damage you deal to shields. But the pve game does not get borked.

Do you feel comfortable fighting with your shields down in PvE?

 

[777Driver]

The Module Reinforcements are a good step in the right direction.

But a lot of the problem is still player behavior. Trying to escape flying in a straight line, Drives exposed to fire.

Perhaps your Drives, FSD could have individual Module reinforcements ( with weight ) specific to that module.
I enjoy fine tuning ships so that would be interesting to me. Risk vs reward. Weight vs speed.

I spend quite a bit of time in this Chieftain build - https://inara.cz/cmdr-fleet/9325/414428/ Originally it didn't have any shields since it was used primarily for assassinations, put BI weaves on for Combat zones and RES sites, found what it really needed was HRP's, majority of the time the shields are down but the ship handles itself fine.

 

[CMDR The Riz]

Do you feel comfortable fighting with your shields down in PvE?

[video=youtube_share;_3gHAt39euY]https://youtu.be/_3gHAt39euY[/video]
​

Yes

Based upon my experience in that video, the biggest challenges faced by someone with their shields down in PVE are:

1. Missiles
2. Railguns
3. Ramming

These can be mitigated by proper outfitting (HRPs and MRPs, ECM/Point Defense), evasive flying, or some combination of both. I will argue that, in PVE, it's entirely possible to further refine a build such as that to survive extremely hostile environments such as CZs.

The problems with hulltanking - either by choice or when your shields fall - come in when PVP is involved. The biggest challenges faced by someone with their shields down in PVP are (in my limited PVP opinion):

1. Packhounds / Stackhounds / Spamhounds and Emissive
2. Super Long Range Penetrator Railguns

I will state without proof* that if I were to take that Stealth Cutter into a fight against a brand-new PVPer in a Meta FDL, I'd have my Powerplant cored out even with 2 5D MRPs. Additionally, if I went up against one of my friends running their Stackhound Gunship, I'd have a difficult time keeping my hardpoints in working condition - but I'd still have the majority of my hull HP left.

In the absence of either of those weapons, it would take some difficulty or time (or both) sniping my modules with other weapons due to the double-stacked MRPs; add an AFMU to that and I could theoretically could keep that partial module shielding up for a long time (and since I naturally run Armored Powerplants.... It'll take a considerable effort to shoot it out. At least I hope ). That essentially leaves us with a similar situation with the SCBs: bring Feedback Cascade, SCB tank is easy. Don't and pray you can outlast them. Bring Emissive/Stackhounds and a Super Penetrator, then it's a point-and-click adventure vs. a hulltank. Don't, and you have yet another wall of HP to burn through, which is something we are trying to reduce globally (as in reduce Time to Kill for all ships to avoid a 20+ minute slogfest).

Here's what I suggest:

1. Rework how missiles function. Each missile needs to acquire lock. As a tradeoff, increase how much hull damage each missile does; rebalance ammo reserves and module damage to compensate, possibly add a bit more health to each missile for getting past PDTs. This should reduce the Reverski Spamhound cheese (cheddar? They're made of cheddar right?) that can easily strip a hulltank of its external modules at 90+ integrity and introduce some skill/fear to missiles.
2. Tweak Emissive Munitions. Right now, a single hit from a small weapon instantly maxes out a target's thermal signature. Rather than that, each shot increases the signature of the target by some amount proportional to the damage of the weapon with Emissive equipped. A similar thing can be done with Corrosive Munitions while I'm thinking of it.
3. Reduce the damage done by Super Penetrator. As it can spread damage around the entire ship, reducing the damage either per module (preferred) or a flat damage reduction (meh?) could help with the longevity of a hulltank's modules.
4. Now here's where it gets murky: All of the above changes will increase the time it takes to shoot down a hulltank. We want to reduce it, in line with reducing the global Time to Kill. I'm thinking of at least three ways to solve that problem, but none of them are really fleshed out yet.
   1. Increase the breach damage of all or most weapons, or tie it to Fixed/Gimballed/Turreted. Reward good aim! (Lasers in particular)
   2. Decrease the absorption rate of MRPs.
   3. Limit the number of MRPs/HPRs (probably not the best idea...)

Just me spitballing as I'm searching for Heat Vanes at 3 AM. Must be going crazy waiting for those USSes to show up


*Ain't NO WAY I'm taking that 20+ Mill rebuy into PVP. Yet .

 

[captainchubb]

@777 driver - Nice build, and nice fleet! Am assuming you’ve gone g3 on the dirty drives as you’ve not gotten round to doing the g5 yet? Or is there a benefit I’m not seeing? (Power? Heat? Looks like it could be a good stealth build?)

 

[777Driver]

@777 driver - Nice build, and nice fleet! Am assuming you’ve gone g3 on the dirty drives as you’ve not gotten round to doing the g5 yet? Or is there a benefit I’m not seeing? (Power? Heat? Looks like it could be a good stealth build?)

G5 Drive strengthened for PvE (Stealth build) G5 Dirty for OPEN. Dual long range Plasma's on the Chieftain is the most fun I've had in this game for a very long time.

 

[captainchubb]

G5 Drive strengthened for PvE (Stealth build) G5 Dirty for OPEN. Dual long range Plasma's on the Chieftain is the most fun I've had in this game for a very long time.

Right I’m totally trying this out!