General / Off-Topic Let's Have A Debate: The Best Star Wars Film - Empire Strikes Back vs Rogue One

[Alien]

Let's Have A Debate

The what:
This is just for fun, don't take it too serious.
Pick a side, debate for that side over the other ... or sit on the fence and debate both sides.
Just because you picked a side to debate for, does not have to reflect your actual feelings on the matter, this is for fun.
IF YOU POST IN THIS THREAD, pick one side or both ... DO NOT POST AND PICK NO SIDES AT ALL, doing so, you acknowledge that the moderators are free to do whatever they wish to your post (remember, this is for fun).
While this is the Off Topic section, please don't go off topic to the thread's topic

At the end of it, there is no "winner" or "loser" or maybe both sides are "winners" ... who cares?, it is just for fun.

When the thread has run it's course, maybe we'll have a different debate on something else, hopefully, that'll be fun as well.

THIS DEBATE: The Empire Strikes Back vs Rogue One

I'll start. Rogue One did something even Star Trek Enterprise couldn't do, make a new entry in a franchise, with modern technology and make it look like it fits. Rogue One introduced us all to a new bunch of characters and got us to like them, from the wise-cracking droid to the blind keeper of the whylls (or is it whills?). It managed to explain a plot hole in the movie that follows it, tie up all the loose ends, have the new characters not being in the next movie actually make sense and gave us the best 60 seconds of Darth Vader we've ever had (until Star Wars Theory's fan film came along).

It used ground-breaking technology to de-age Carrie Fisher and bring back Peter Cushing, and regardless of whether you have issues with them bringing Cushing back, you have to admit that while not perfect, it was very very VERY well done.

And it made me care about the death of a droid for crying out loud.
Rogue One is THE best Star Wars film. Ever.

We would be honoured if you would join us.

 

[Rob At Work]

Prequels of sequels coming before the originals but later - I am getting confused with all this. At least Back to the Future 3 was understandably confusing.

 

[Hooplah]

Between the two I would go Empire fitting in with the original trilogy...But the absolute best one?

Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope (c1977)

Why is it the best one? It like Elite (c1984) was the first that the world went totally nuts about. No one had ever seen a movie like this before. There were lines of viewers waiting to get into the theaters to see it. Special showings were promoted where the viewers dressed up. I saw it at the theater and drive-in several times. When the credits rolled I wanted to fire up the thrusters on my Toyota Celica, lift off and fly home!

Later releases might have more in-depth story, better production values, special effects and character development. But without the success of Episode IV they would have never existed.

Isn't it ironic that George Lucas once said that he would never release Star Wars commercially on videotape. Even he didn't see the future.

 

[JetsonRING]

I saw A New Hope with my dad when it was originally released. I still laugh remembering, as we left the theater me telling dad how I was looking forward to the sequel (it was so incredibly obvious there would be a sequel) and him replying that there would never be a sequel to that POS.

My dad . . . not the brightest bulb on the Xmas tree.

Anyhow, everything created after The Empire Strikes Back has sort of sucked. o7

 

[Jenner]

Looking back on it I like a lot of what Rogue One accomplished. It was refreshing to not have a film focused on the Jedi/Sith for a change and I love the fact that they had the guts to kill off everyone at the end. I wish more movies/tv had the gall to actually embrace that kind of drama. I also agree that they did a great job of matching the aesthetics of the originals while also looking like a modern film.

Between the two, though....that's a tough call. I grew up with Empire, so it has the nostalgia factor. I've seen it dozens of times now, and I've only seen Rogue One once or twice.
Empire has the stronger cast for sure. Heck, I couldn't tell you the character names from Rogue One, lol. That said they were distinct and relate-able enough that I don't have any major gripes about the characters.

I'm going to have to be a fence sitter I'm afraid. I'm terrible at picking favorites! I like them both.

 

[EUS]

Episode IV is the best one.

Episode VI was the start of the decline, and everything "star wars" afterwards has been different levels of garbage.

 

[who?]

Rogue One is my pick of the bunch. Fresh, optimistic, sad, funny, tragic. I want a prequel!

Empire Strikes Back stands out because it was quite 'brave' in not following the usual move sequence: it had the big battle at the start, the good guys running away, a twist in the middle and the good guys losing out, and a very downbeat ending.

For its time though, A New Hope was the best. The amount of things it got right, when it's so easy for sci-fi to get wrong, really made it special. One of the big problems with most sci-fi movies is that in trying to be futuristic and different, they end up with characters the observer can't identify with. "You are Excelsior Zorg of the Galactic Alliance"... no, I'm not. Not even close. That's why the more successful franchises always try to have characters/concepts that are more 'grounded'/'salt of the earth'/familiar.

A New Hope was clever in having lots of familiar topics in a very alien setting: royalty, knights with swords, religion, 'magic'. Without these, it could have gone very, very different.

 

[Rade Konn]

Empire Strikes Back especially since none of us knew the outcome of the movie.

 

[verminstar]

Empire wins fer me though thats not to take anything away from Rogue which was also very good in its own right. At the time, the whole star wars franchise hit me smack bang at the start of my teenage years and it was to have a fairly big influence on me...got addicted to those damned sticker albums cos the packs were 20p each, had 5 stickers and a strip of not very nice gum and getting those last few stickers...did eat a lotta gum though.

New Hope was new, original and became a household name literally overnight...I doubt old George saw that one coming but however...that enthusiasm after the success of the first was plain to see in the way the Empire was made. Gone was the fairy tale in Empire and they stomped the good guys hard in the first half hour of the movie. Didnt get much better for them as the movie went on either and this too was something which was new and somewhat original...movies back then werent normally made like this.

Return of the Jedi was good, but a bit more frantic with so many different characters all doing their different things...it happened in the previous two, but didnt start to become noticable until the last. Its not an overly bad thing and all the characters put in a sterling job of doing what they do, but...well maybe its just me but out of them all, Empire stands out head and shoulders above Rogue.

I liked Rogue but found it a bit forgettable, only watched it the once...not a bad movie but not a great one either. I know others who love it though...maybe its just me.

My daughter will haunt me if I dont mention episode 3 Revenge of the Sith...of the 3 prequels that came out, that one was the best...according to her she liked them more than I did ^

 

[starman]

Unless you have this then you cann't be a star wars 'completionist'

[video=youtube;X4Wq6fXuSn0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4Wq6fXuSn0[/video]

 

[Old Duck]

I like the new cartoon where Luke Skywalker is a bumbling idiot and it's up to Princess Leia to save the galaxy using "Female Force"

 

[starman]

Rogue One is my pick of the bunch. Fresh, optimistic, sad, funny, tragic. I want a prequel!

Empire Strikes Back stands out because it was quite 'brave' in not following the usual move sequence: it had the big battle at the start, the good guys running away, a twist in the middle and the good guys losing out, and a very downbeat ending.

For its time though, A New Hope was the best. The amount of things it got right, when it's so easy for sci-fi to get wrong, really made it special. One of the big problems with most sci-fi movies is that in trying to be futuristic and different, they end up with characters the observer can't identify with. "You are Excelsior Zorg of the Galactic Alliance"... no, I'm not. Not even close. That's why the more successful franchises always try to have characters/concepts that are more 'grounded'/'salt of the earth'/familiar.

A New Hope was clever in having lots of familiar topics in a very alien setting: royalty, knights with swords, religion, 'magic'. Without these, it could have gone very, very different.

In any survey regarding popular culture the best ever. Always seems to focus on whatever is the latest iteration rather than the all time classic. Annoying.

 

[Demascus]

I'll take more prequels please. Anything over the new "star wars: the last mary sue". Hell I'll even take another horrible "Solo" movie. So what if they ditched the lore and rewrote established characters. Just make the pain stop!

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Rogue One.
Donnie Yen had credible fight scenes. The previous king of combat was Darth Maul, also played by a martial artist, but Yen put him in the shade. It is sad that he got no climactic fight vs a single credible matchup.

The established story arc told us that the plans would be obtained( no different to the certainty that the Deathstar is doomed to blow up spectacularly by the series finale) so the plot revolved around characterization rather than events. Considering that handicap, Rogue One was neatly written and just dovetails into the original triad without any major issues.

Unlike the main series, it doesn't try to tell a tale of a win, but kills off everybody as a sacrifice to make the main story happen. The heroes are underpowered, overwhelmed, and go down swinging. I like that better. It makes the story resonate, like the account of the Alamo fight.

In the end, we all have to die. It's what we chose to do with our time that really matters, how best we can leave things for those that follow us.

 

[Junagu]

I'm with Mr Plinkett on this one - Empire is the only actually decent SW film and mainly because GL had so little to do with it.
Rogue One was, imho, really awful garbage - mutton dressed as lamb.
I'd link the review but probably not a good idea - viewer discretion advised.

 

[starman]

Don't know. Ask this guy https://twitter.com/HamillHimself

 

[Vasea Azure]

For me the Empire Strikes Back is the best SW movie by a long shot. Its a solid war movie and si fi one. Not a fan of any SW Disney movies to be honest so I dont really care about the RG - altho it is imo best of the new ones.

 

[EDanaII]

I'm in the ESB crowd for this one. That said, Rogue One remains the best of anything that came after ESB. Unlike the Stinquels, or any of the other Disney Drek, Rogue One feels more like the original. I.e. WWII in Space.

Unfortunately, for me, it does create some huge discrepancies, like how Darth Vader was so kick @$$ with all those poor hapless Rebels, but later when he's with Kenobi? What happened? And all by himself, instead of with a contingent of troopers like he had when he finally caught Leia. Usage of the Death Star "one reactor only" kinda lessened the events in IV as well, IMHO.

And, the characters didn't really do much for me. The only one with any charm was K2SO. And lines like "Rebellions are built on hope." didn't help Jyn's character much. Rebellions, for the record are built on anger, hatred and an intense desire to make it stop, so she seemed more naive than any kind of realistic hero. Cassian? Felt more like a Boba Fett than a Han Solo, and so on...

Other issues were how easily those star destroyers were able to slice each other in two, or the incredible accuracy at which Tarkin was able to target Krennic... Ok, he didn't "target" Krennic, but, seriously!? Instead of firing straight down they fire at such an angle that they clip that tower that Krennic was on? Poetic irony, my butte, corny irony is what it was. Or Jyn & Crew able to make such a narrow escape off of Jedha but not Scarif. I would have been happier with that sequence if that Jedha scene had never taken place.

All in all, I enjoyed Rogue One but ESB, even with it's lack of an ending, was the better tale for me.

 

[Alien]

There's more about Rogue One I liked and forgot to mention in my opening post.

"Where are you taking the prisoners?" ... "These are prisoners? (Cassian goes to interrupt K2 slaps him) And there's a fresh one if you mouth off again[1]" ... "Where are you taking them?" ... "I'm taking them to ... prison? ... I've taken them this far" ... "Let us check your diagnostics" ... "Diagnostics? I am capable of checking my own diagnostics, thank you very much"

... My favourite scene in the film (I didn't quote it accurately, but you get the idea I hope)

And something I noticed only after a few re-watches ... in the beach scene when the rebels are shooting back, some of them are wearing hats that weren't first seen until Return Of The Jedi, and even then they're not exactly the same. Another thing they did that fits with A New Hope is first the plans are put onto a chunky hard disk, then Jyn uploads it to the Rebel's ship and it gets put on a very slim minidisc, which co-incidentally fits into astromech droids.

[1] - This was improvised by Alan Tudyk and Diego Luna (who plays Cassian) had to cover his mouth to stay in character as he didn't expect Alan to hit him

And the thing with Darth Vader being better, if you are into all the lore, Darth Vader was always that good, and while we understand that sword fighting in movies at that time wasn't as good as what we have today, there are story reasons for why the fight with Obi-Wan wasn't as action packed. My take on it is, they both know they can't defeat each other with lightsabers (as seen in Revenge of The Sith) and they can't defeat each other with force powers, so it's a mind game, not a sword battle.

And they escaped Jedha because K2 was already in the ship flying around, on Scarif they had no escape ship ready for them. No-one on the ground there escaped that, both Rebels and Imperials died there.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Unfortunately, for me, it does create some huge discrepancies, like how Darth Vader was so kick @$$ with all those poor hapless Rebels, but later when he's with Kenobi? What happened?

This is an artifact caused by making a prequel 40 years later, with the advances in cinema.

Nevertheless, I would venture to offer this: few can confidently face their Master and prevail. It plays out in every dojo: experienced instructors can clobber all the students easily, but not the Master.