Lets talk about system security (or lack there of)
- Thread starter roflcopter
- Start date
When was the last time you saw an Anaconda NPC that could keep up with an A-spec Anaconda player?
You're not a bank, you're just an average joe. Be glad you aren't waiting 20 minutes for a single officer to respond like you would in reality.
Actually, we ARE something special, the Pilots Federation isn't a drinking club you know..or maybe you didn't know? Newsletter #22 touches upon this, as does #50, and it's long been part of the Elite lore, we're NOT average joes.
As for why NPCs don't fly around in A spec Condas..is that a joke? It must be a joke, he can't really be serious with that can he? Hmm, considering his stance and lack of education on the lore, maybe he is serious? Nah, he's gone off too many times about how he knows all this stuff, gotta be a joke....
Then ask Frontier why the Pilots Federation doesn't send an armed escort to follow you everywhere you go. Being a member of the Pilot's federation earn's you what in the eyes of the actual Federation? What does it earn you in the Empire's opinion? If current Pilot activity is anything to go by, it should earn you a price on your head and a KOS flag the moment you undock your Sidewinder for the first time, because the Pilot's Federation is a den of thieves, murderers and mercenaries who will do anything for credits.
So much for lore
Which NPC's are we talking about here? The average Hurr-Durr pirate that can't decide whether he wants to scan your cargo or pancake into an asteroid, or the billion-strong army of Federation soldiers who control the space around thousands of stars with capital class ships the size of a small Island Nation? Why are they flying around in jalopies while we're cruising the intergalactic speedways in the best civilization can build, when we buy half the tech from the militaries?
Why is the Federation selling us their Assault Ships that we use to destroy their Anacondas? We pay 30 million credits to them so that they can take out a loan on a partially fit Anaconda so we can turn it into dust on it's first sortie.
Brilliant.
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Ive banged my drum on this topic several times and i agree with most of the comments here that something needs to be done.
But im a patient man and i have faith in the holy braben and his disciple brookes. Im sure they will get round to doing something about it sooner or later.
Can i get 50 hail Brabens?
But im a patient man and i have faith in the holy braben and his disciple brookes. Im sure they will get round to doing something about it sooner or later.
Can i get 50 hail Brabens?
Wow! This is kind of like "how many cops are in new york city?" and you answer "it depends on how many instances of new york city currently exist". Does not compute.
Then ask Frontier why the Pilots Federation doesn't send an armed escort to follow you everywhere you go. Being a member of the Pilot's federation earn's you what in the eyes of the actual Federation? What does it earn you in the Empire's opinion? If current Pilot activity is anything to go by, it should earn you a price on your head and a KOS flag the moment you undock your Sidewinder for the first time, because the Pilot's Federation is a den of thieves, murderers and mercenaries who will do anything for credits.
So much for lore
Which NPC's are we talking about here? The average Hurr-Durr pirate that can't decide whether he wants to scan your cargo or pancake into an asteroid, or the billion-strong army of Federation soldiers who control the space around thousands of stars with capital class ships the size of a small Island Nation? Why are they flying around in jalopies while we're cruising the intergalactic speedways in the best civilization can build, when we buy half the tech from the militaries?
Why is the Federation selling us their Assault Ships that we use to destroy their Anacondas? We pay 30 million credits to them so that they can take out a loan on a partially fit Anaconda so we can turn it into dust on it's first sortie.
Brilliant.
Ok, you don't know what the Pilots Federation is, and it's not part of the Federation, just so you know. It's properly explained in the wiki and the 2 newsletters I referenced, #22 and #50, should read up on it, it actually answers your questions far better than I can.
And players doing what they do without repercussion IS why we're asking for a chance in how things work. The Pilots Federation would be sending ships after you for violations in Anarchy systems, that's what they do, police their own, it's why holding a Pilots Federation license is so hard to do and carries a good reputation with it, they don't ALLOW piracy and smuggling. So not only should we have the system authorities going after players who break the law in non-Anarchy systems, we should also have bounties handed out by the Pilots Federation for anyone breaking the law in non-Anarchy systems AS WELL AS placing bounties on pilots who break the Pilots Federation rules in Anarchy systems and sending pilots out to collect those bounties.
AI issues are AI issues and have nothing to do with what they fly. They are flying around in the ships they use because not all the military vessels are in the game yet and because many system authorities can't afford top of the line ships, so they use what they can afford. Around Sol and Achenar, we should see NOTHING but top of the line military vessels being used by the system authorities and naval forces, but we don't do we? Those ships aren't even in the game so the AI doesn't get to use them. Something that needs to be addressed along with the lack of Pilots Federation bounty hunters and the lack of proper system authority responses.
And the Federation only sells their military vessels to those who've gained rank in their Auxiliary Navy, remember? Same with the Empire, and when they finally get around to creating the Alliance specific ships, we'll see ranks with them as well. Can't just go up to a station that sells the Federal Gunship or Imperial Clipper and BUY it, got to hold the proper rank first, from the Imperial Eagle to the Federal Corvette and Imperial Cutter when they come out, ain't got the rank, can't buy the ship no matter how much money you wave at them.
Seriously, these are all self evident, why are you bringing them up? We're SUPPOSED to have proper system authorities and responses to transgressions, per FD. Pilots Federation is supposed to be more than just a drinking club, also per FD. Ai being what it is, nothing to do with any of these, so why bring that up?
I'd suggest you read up a bit on the lore, as well as FD's own statements about how this particular issue is SUPPOSED to work, as opposed bringing up totally unrelated things and dismissing our concerns out of hand due to a total lack of information on the subject.
Almighty Bob
Banned
We have been 'banging on about this' for 11 months. FD have not fixed what I believe to be a broken game--- lifetime expansion pass anyone!
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Balance the criminal professions before this. Piracy doesn't make money as it is, so creating even more obstacles before fixing said profession is unthinkable.
All of this would be reasonable, if this thread wasn't about federation and empire ships having a stronger presence in important federation and empire worlds to be immediately available to respond.
Players are the Pilot's Federation bounty hunters you think don't exist. Are you a member of the Pilot's Federation? Yes. Can you buy a Kill Warrant Scanner? Yes. Congratulations, you're a Pilot's Federation Bounty Hunter. Get to work.
A military's standard issue is typically well beyond what private citizens can buy off the shelf in terms of quality and effectiveness. Always has been. A military checkpoint in South Dakota to a fuel storage facility has more stopping power in their cabinet than any billionaire firearms collector you can name, short of those weirdos who collect disarmed tanks which have the ability to just run the checkpoint over.
Federation Navy has sold me an Assault Ship and a Gunship, yes. Now I am free to go and shoot as many Federation ships as I want in these vessels and hey, they may be angry at me for a while but I don't lose Navy rank, there's no such thing as desertion or a traitor, so all I have to do is deliver messages for a couple hours and we're buddies again. Aren't video games great?
All of these are self evident.
Oh, and I understand perfectly what the Pilot's Federation is, and it's individuality from the Federation, which was never implied in my post.
Edit: Oh, and check on some of the stuff outside of the newsletters and wikis. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised about what the lore has to say about military technology in the year 3301.
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roflcopter
Banned
you won't have anyone to pirate if everyone is in solo because the security services are too incompetent to protect their trade vessels in high security space
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That's because policing infinite space versus policing a city is comparing apples to tire irons.
Here's a more logical explanation to why there's a very wild-west situation in space, even in the capitol systems:
"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space." - Douglas Adams
Consider, for a moment, the concept of the Dyson Sphere. It seems plausible at first glance, to surround a sun with energy-collecting arrays which form a spherical structure. One could harness the energy of a sun for eons. There's only one problem; in order to build a Dyson Sphere around a one solar-mass star, one would require more materials than are present in our entire solar system, including Asteroid Belt and Oort Cloud.
Similarly, we have solar system security. The request is essentially for full battlefleets in core worlds that are dedicated to nothing but system security and respond to not only some crimes, but every crime. Not only would this make no roleplay sense whatsoever, as navies of that size would just be committed to dealing with the other navies of the same size from rival factions, but the materials involved are already pushed enough by the NPCs that already exist. A given space-faring group already has to recruit constantly because they go through pilots in a RES like a frat house goes through booze. The sheer number of ships destroyed on a daily basis suggest that recycling programs are in place just to keep making more ships. That there's still something to undock in that doesn't look like someone strapped the back end of a Type-7 to the front end of an Eagle with duct tape is about as much of a strain as the lore can take in order to explain how we're all flying anything. That, and the sheer number of Extraction and Refinery economies.
I submit that it would be more economical to build a Dyson Sphere than to construct entire, ever-present navies that police heavily populated systems, given the number of such systems that exist.
Moving on, let's consider now how to locate a criminal in three dimensional space. This is done through triangulation, but in three dimensions, so we have to account for another axis. That means triangulation requires a pyramid of detectors which must receive the data at relativistic speed (else they'd be too expensive to employ). Presuming this speed to be c, that means there is reception of data, calculation, and response time. Assuming the ship tattles its exact <x,y,z> coordinates versus the system's "plane", that won't be instant, and there are too many ships that need monitoring to have a reasonable fleet to respond to every call. What we have now, like it or not, is more forgiving than how it would be IRL in a few thousand years already. POIs would have defense, but that's about it.
It's not just in system security that needs looking at but also fines and rep in systems where u pirate or smuggle.
you kill a clean player in a non anarchy system u should recieve a severe penalty and I don't mean a fine u can ignore but more like a station ban for all systems related to that faction be it imp fed or alliance.
its farcical u can kill with impunity then go dock at any station u wish, an outlaw should be just that outlawed. The pirates of old didn't reap round the Caribbean then just go to any port they fancied they had a very few safe havens to dock at ED should reflect this, if your flagged and try to play in a more lawfull sector u should have the chance at greater reward but also far less chance of getting it.
untill the scales of justice actually exist in ED more and more of us occasional PvP players will drift off to groups or solo open space will get quieter and quieter up tills there's no one in open space to hear u scream
you kill a clean player in a non anarchy system u should recieve a severe penalty and I don't mean a fine u can ignore but more like a station ban for all systems related to that faction be it imp fed or alliance.
its farcical u can kill with impunity then go dock at any station u wish, an outlaw should be just that outlawed. The pirates of old didn't reap round the Caribbean then just go to any port they fancied they had a very few safe havens to dock at ED should reflect this, if your flagged and try to play in a more lawfull sector u should have the chance at greater reward but also far less chance of getting it.
untill the scales of justice actually exist in ED more and more of us occasional PvP players will drift off to groups or solo open space will get quieter and quieter up tills there's no one in open space to hear u scream
Open has been getting more popular, actually. Groups like mobius are increasing in size solely because new players keep buying ED, yet they are shown to be gradually making up a smaller percentage of the whole player population. Player population is continuing to spread out though because players can afford to travel farther and wider in larger ships. Something all of us knew would happen since Day 1.
I'm getting a healthy amount as it is.
Even if your suggestion is implemented, it doesn't change the position Piracy is in. If anything it makes it worse since certain system would be pretty much impossible to pirate. Which is fine, if Piracy was much more profitable.
So please get the priority right.
roflcopter
Banned
sounds like both these issues go hand in hand and need fixing together, make piracy more profitable and make high security space safer, then piracy will flourish in low and anarchy systems, like it should do really
Would love to see both implemented at the same time.
What piracy are you talking about? Code blowing people away without getting any cargo, yeah, I'm sure that pays horribly, but that would be a PEBKAC issue, not a game issue, start demanding cargo before you kill everyone, MIGHT make some money doing that. Funny thing about piracy, it typically requires you to get cargo from the victim before you vaporize their ship, odd how that works ain't it?
We ARE asking for better system authority in the core worlds though, that's the thing, the systems where it SHOULD be extremely heavy is where want it to be EXISTENT at all because right now, it's not. Sol, capitol system of the Federation, need a permit to even enter the system, and I can go play pirate and assassin there all day long without any problems what so ever, docking in the stations after destroying their very own system authority vessels literally in sight of the station by standing just outside the no fire zone. Done it, it's stupidly easy and it's a big part of why I'm spending most of my time in Elite out in the Black instead of being a pirate and smuggler as I am wont to do, been the XO of a pirate unit for online games for 20 years now, it's something I enjoy when the game actually treats me like a bad guy. In Elite, I'm not a bad guy no matter how many innocent civilians I've murdered or how many cops I've murdered, I can still dock at the same station all those victims flew out of. THAT is broken, very very broken and it's not what FD told us would be happening in the game.
You can keep going on about things that have no bearing on this subject at all, doesn't change the fact that this is broken and needs to be fixed, because we were TOLD it wouldn't work like it does, we were TOLD it would work as we're asking it to work. Gluttony not liking us asking for that, I can understand that, he's touched obviously
(southern US term for slightly mental), and he's speaking HIS mind, as the boss of Code already spoke in this thread and agrees with the rest of us, this needs to be fixed, no contradiction there, Code is very much about each member having their own opinion and I respect that(don't always agree with how they work it, PR nightmare ain't it Gluttony, a job I do for my own unit, are you guys in SC btw?).It's not a big complicated thing to fix either, system authority already exists, simply beef up their response time and their hardware according to the system standing(Sol and Achenar should be OH YOU ARE SO ! to Anarchy systems being 'This is Peggy'*US commercial, big burly guy with a slavic accent , outsourced bad customer service, ie - no system authority to respond*) with variations based on where/what government/faction association/etc, not that hard to implement, it simply needs to be done. Smuggling takes on it's PROPER danger when you have to face the guns of the cops instead of a fine you can just ignore. Piracy becomes something you try not to do in high security systems like Achenar, too likely to just end up dead but systems out a hundred or so LY from there, probably a good place to make a living, IF you are very careful, while the fringes are great for making a living as a Pirate, exactly as it should be.
Corvus, due to how the instancing mechanic works, there's no need for thousands of system authority in any given system, we simply don't have THAT many players spread across that many instances at any given time in any single location. A little over 3000 people participated in the Hutton Orbital CG, about the same in the Sothis CG, and that's been about it so far, a few thousand people showing up at any given location in masses, and that isn't happening AT ONCE, it's spread out over a week's time, it's not 3k people at a single time in a single area. So there's no need for the hyperbole, it's not anywhere near that complicated, as I pointed out, Windscreen's total lack of maths with his 'billion system authority just for Sol', totally statement. You guys don't like the concept of a working police system, you are trying to argue it away using because you have no logical standing.
FD told us it would work as we're asking for it to work, that's it, we're asking FD to actually put what they told us we'd have in place, nothing more, nothing less.