LIFETIME Expansion pass, and Python Mk2

"It's not food, it's candy!"

The FC point isn't relevant, and no LEP owner expected because it wasn't delayed access via arx.. and this is the ridiculous point here... splitting hairs over the difference between open, delayed and no access.

It's just cash-grabbing while keeping those who purchased a product in limbo by saying nothing on the topic.... it's one and the same thing, trading in ambiguities.

If instead of Arx they offered the ships for 500B or 1T credits and made game credits purchasable for $$ would you feel entitled to get it for free in the same way?

It would certainly be within their right to do it if they chose to and it would not go against anything promised to LEP holders.

It would practically be the same as what is happening now, it would take a while to earn that much credits the same way as it takes a while to earn the Arx in game.

The ships are not expansions, they are available for purchase in game with in game currencies without spending $$. Go play the game and earn Arx the same way you play the game and earn credits to buy everything else.
 
If instead of Arx they offered the ships for 500B or 1T credits and made game credits purchasable for $$ would you feel entitled to get it for free in the same way?
That's a red herring.

If I play the game, I can get credits at virtually any rate... it's all down to how I play. I'm master of my own destiny in that regard. If I wanted to burn down my life and earn 1T credits right now, regardless of whether I did it via 1/2 billion/h via massacre stacking, or 1m/h farming Pod Tissue Samples playing non stop til i hit that mark.... or preserve my life and do it over the next year... regardless... it's in my control. So if it was a question only of credits, absolutely fine, no problem with that. I have full agency over how much or how little credits I want to earn.

I cannot do that with Arx. I either purchase them with cash, or earn, what is it now, 400 a week? I have no agency over that, it's a hard cap that I can't get past just by playing the game. Now, I've seen plenty of other games (mostly mobile whale-hunting games) do this, and you know what they almost universally do? Offer a season pass to get to the content for that update early rather than play through all the time-gated content to get there. You know what LEP holders bought? A lifetime pass. That's why "lifetime" is the magic word here.

But to also turn your point on it's head... what if buying these ships was only available with Arx (i.e not time gated at all), and Arx could not be earned in-game, they could only be purchased. A pure cash-exchange. I would argue 100% that LEP holders should get access to that as part of the pass.

From there, if we consider
Freely available straight-up, no time gates, only credits == OK; and
Only available exclusively via Arx, and Arx are only purchasable == not OK;

Then the current situation sits somewhere between those two extremes, which goes back to my comments: This is just cash-grabbing and dealing in ambiguities through FD remaining silent on what the heck is going on with LEPs. If FD came out and said definitively "We aren't going to provide early access to the new ships to LEP holders because of X reason"... I'd be totally OK with that. And the reason FD hasn't done that is, bluntly, because they can't. There's no reason they can exclude LEP holders that wouldn't wind them in a hot spot. FD know this, so they stay silent. Keeping it ambiguous makes it super-hard to demonstrate they have an explicit position that contravenes the expectations of the LEP.

I did actually seek advice from my local consumer affairs on this... the advice backs my position generally, but also can't compel a foreign company, so it's a moot point... by the time i try to leverage that advice in a meaningful way, the ships are probably available.

The easiest way out would just be to call it a day for the LEP officially. FD could absolutely do that. But they can't do that... you know why? It's because that implies the game is end-of-life.

So here we are. Stuck in limbo because things go on despite the LEP, but if we just stay really really quiet, maybe nobody will notice...

It would certainly be within their right to do it if they chose to and it would not go against anything promised to LEP holders.
Obviously, they never promised to design their game and business models around LEP holders... only to give LEP holders all future content expansions.

The ships are not expansions
"It's not food, it's candy!"

EDIT: You know what? ARX and purchases like this are called microtransactions yeah? In which case, the ships are "Microexpansions". Yum, candy.
 
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It's a waste of time complaining. As I've said, it's at Frontier's discretion and it's up to Frontier what the LEP covers and what it doesn't. All complaining about it does is make you look like someone who is ungrateful for what they get.

And to be clear, there is difference between having a discussion about what the LEP should cover or shouldn't cover and constantly dismissing valid and logical points multiple people make just because it ends your weak argument.
 
I'd certainly like some more things thrown the LEP way, that is rather in the spirit of it, but required? I'm glad Frontier are sticking with E:D and seem to be ramping up after something of a rough patch. Possibly a statement from Frontier about this to clarify their position would good? Though given I'd only expect that to annoy people (on any side of this discussion), plus they probably like to have latitude to easily change their minds with less comment, I don't see there is much likelihood.
 
I do believe that granting the Standard variants of the pre-access for ARX ships to LEP holders would have been a good faith move by Frontier. The number of LEP holders still playing are quite a low percentage of the player base so likely wouldn't have impacted the sales demonstrably (disclaimer: complete assumptions made on my part).

That said, and as @Alien has pointed out, it's ultimately up to Frontier. They aren't breaching any agreement doing it the way they are, no matter how individuals may feel about the situation. I'm not an LEP owner, I didn't even know Elite existed until 2017, when I found out about it, and bought it pretty much instantly, kicking myself for not knowing about it earlier.
 
LEP is expansion related (the hint is in the name). I am amazed at the stamina of LEP holders to just keep asking for literally everything for free as though this somehow might be considered normal. There was always going to be a limit for what that covered; that's the risk anyone buying the LEP took. As it is for anyone buying 'lifetime' access to anything.
 
It's ultimately up to the individual consumer.

Frontier haven't received any income from me since the introduction of ARX and they keep coming up with reasons to make sure that continues to be the case.
Which is absolutely your prerogative, and I'll back you all the way that it's your right to maintain that position and continue to operate in that fashion. It's still up to Frontier what they offer and in what packages; it's their choice what's included in LEP, and what isn't.
 
That said, and as @Alien has pointed out, it's ultimately up to Frontier. They aren't breaching any agreement doing it the way they are, no matter how individuals may feel about the situation.
The only reason they aren't explicitly is because they've never had an explicit position on it.

Implicitly though... consumer law has much more to say about what businesses can and can't do than people seem to think. Many things aren't actually inline, but neither is it worth pursuing with any fervour.

I got my advice supporting my position, and also acknowledge it's hard to compel anything from a foreign country. Doesn't mean i can't call it out for the dog act it is... since i'm stuck with a LEP anyway.

I'd be more than happy for someone from FD to correct the record here.
 
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If I play the game, I can get credits at virtually any rate... it's all down to how I play. I'm master of my own destiny in that regard.

No, you can’t earn Arx in game as fast as credits but you still CAN earn them fully within the game without spending any extra amount of $$ so after a time you can get the ship without paying any additional $$. This technically satisfies the LEP promise and makes these ships not actually expansions. Time delayed game items are also not without precedent within this game as well. Previously you had to wait 4 weeks to be able to get power play modules. You couldn’t get them any sooner no matter how much you tried. You’d need to wait a lot longer to accumulate the free Arx but whether it’s 4 weeks or 40 weeks, it’s still an item that is available in game without paying extra $$. I’m not saying it’s right or that FDEV are not lame for doing it this way, I’m just saying it’s not an expansion because it’s available in game with current in game means for everyone.

But to also turn your point on it's head... what if buying these ships was only available with Arx (i.e not time gated at all), and Arx could not be earned in-game, they could only be purchased. A pure cash-exchange. I would argue 100% that LEP holders should get access to that as part of the pass.

If it was only available for Arx and you couldn’t earn Arx in game then yes, I’d agree with you that it’s an expansion since the only way to earn it would be to spend additional $$. That’s not the case though.

From there, if we consider
Freely available straight-up, no time gates, only credits == OK; and
Only available exclusively via Arx, and Arx are only purchasable == not OK;

Then the current situation sits somewhere between those two extremes, which goes back to my comments: This is just cash-grabbing and dealing in ambiguities through FD remaining silent on what the heck is going on with LEPs.

Yes it’s cash grabbing because they count on people not waiting to accumulate the Arx in game and taking the $$ shortcut instead, but that still doesn’t make it an expansion because it is still available in game without spending $$ if one so chooses.

Look, I’m not saying FDEV is doing things right by players, they’ve done many things lately to screw over the play base, like reducing the purchasing power of their accumulated Arx. I’m just saying that they are doing it in a way that technically they are allowed to do.

Another thing comes to mind, what happened to the Arx earnings via power play 2.0? They sure talked a lot about that in the screenshots they showed in the previews but that seems to have quietly disappeared? I didn’t see any communication about that very significant change. Is that still a thing? Would have been a good way to earn additional Arx.
 
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Look, I’m not saying FDEV is doing things right by players, they’ve done many things lately to screw over the play base, like reducing the purchasing power of their accumulated Arx. I’m just saying that they are doing it in a way that technically they are allowed to do.
I think I said this in this thread months ago, but can't be bothered to go back. The one thing I would say they did technically break is not giving the ship to LEP owners before it went live for the ARX restricted window when it was available for influencers (I hate saying that word), as the LEP is rather clear about giving access to content before it goes live.
 
Back in 2014/2015 the 'standard' way that a game released was in expansions / DLC - I think a lot of ppl bought the LEP as a way to ensure they got access to new content as soon as possible - because that was how you did that back then.

In 2024 the games industry is switching to the 'pay premium for early access' model where games like Starfield / Diablo 4 etc let you pay a premium for a few days of early access. And now Elite is doing the same: pay a premium to avoid the 3 month wait for the P2.

Paul's post about the LEP follows the letter of the law, but not the spirit. People bought the LEP for ongoing early access and are now being told they don't get it. Which is fine if they want to do that - but don't expect a lot of good will from a bunch of ppl who by definition have been playing the game since the start.

Seems like a needless own-goal, but hey - this is fdev :)
I don't really care either way but giving LEP holders ability to buy the ships as soon as the assets are in the game would be a nice gesture and nod to that transaction. It would also show FD in a positive customer-focused light that would build on the positive upswing in 2024. I am a Kickstarter and own two LEPs (gifted one to my son, who is just now old enough to get into the game on his own), and have a couple other licenses I never used. I'm counting on at least one more paid expansion to really get the full time-value-of-money out of my LEPs compared to non-LEP purchasers.

But my real reflection on the post by Factabulous is the comment about the "games industry is switching to the 'pay premium for early access' . . .". FD seems to have way too often gone with what the "industry" or "big publishers" or a management consultant tells them is hot or in the magic quadrant for sales or customer interaction. (I've no hard evidence for this, but it does appear likely).

And Arx is among the worst industry copying FDEV have done. I bought cosmetics back when it was a straight cash priced transaction, but I have resisted using Arx due to the manipulative and customer-unfriendly nature, despite how FD or others want to try and "put lipstick on a pig" like being able to earn Arx in-game. They could allow players to earn game-world established "Credits" with the Bank of Zaonce and thus anchor it in the game lore. Then list a separate "Zaonce Credits" price in the shop along with the real-currency price.

FD might be better served by leaning into their strengths and blazing their own trail, so to speak, instead of following the "industry" too closely.
 
I think I said this in this thread months ago, but can't be bothered to go back. The one thing I would say they did technically break is not giving the ship to LEP owners before it went live for the ARX restricted window when it was available for influencers (I hate saying that word), as the LEP is rather clear about giving access to content before it goes live.

True, LEP should probably have had access to it on the test servers the way influencers did. That was a stab in the back to loyal backers there..
 
LEP has NEVER given us access to store content without having the ARX for it, has NEVER allowed us to not pay full whack for stuff purchased with ingame credits (Founder access to Shin Dez before you ranked up and therefore the discounted market there came at a higher kickstarter tier). We got the Horizons update for free when other folks had to pay extra for it. We got Odyssey for free when other folks had to pay extra for it. IF any part of "Ascension" ends up as a paid extension like Horizons and Odyssey were, I'd expect we'd get that too but honestly, I suspect it won't be... unless the business metrics support it, which in the current economic climate I would doubt.
 
No, you can’t earn Arx in game as fast as credits but you still CAN earn them fully within the game without spending any extra amount of $$ so after a time you can get the ship without paying any additional $$. This technically satisfies the LEP promise and makes these ships not actually expansions. Time delayed game items are also not without precedent within this game as well. Previously you had to wait 4 weeks to be able to get power play modules. You couldn’t get them any sooner no matter how much you tried. You’d need to wait a lot longer to accumulate the free Arx but whether it’s 4 weeks or 40 weeks, it’s still an item that is available in game without paying extra $$. I’m not saying it’s right or that FDEV are not lame for doing it this way, I’m just saying it’s not an expansion because it’s available in game with current in game means for everyone.
I don't care about any of that, bluntly.

If it's A) a functional (i.e not cosmetic) part of the game, and B) has a dollar pricetag against it, whether it's Arx or $$, it should fall under the LEP. That's my expectation[1].

What next? Titan wreck access permit-gated behind Arx... next "word that doesn't fundamentally mean expansion" update available with Arx... and all these are off limits to the LEP because they're Arx items and therefore able to be obtained? Credits are an in-game widget. Arx are a monetization model. They are not equivalent.

Bottom line is this: My "reasonable expectation" is, as someone who purchased a LEP, I shouldn't be needing to second-guess what functional content (which I consider ships, fittings, locations, activities, anything that's interactive) falls within that or not, or whether it will be "delayed access".

I sure as heck don't order a pizza and expect them them go "Cool... you can get it next week or pay an extra $10 to receive it right now"

If it was only available for Arx and you couldn’t earn Arx in game then yes, I’d agree with you that it’s an expansion since the only way to earn it would be to spend additional $$. That’s not the case though.
Nor is it the case that you can exclusively pay for the ships with credits, as you said.

That's why I set these as the bounds, because the current state falls somewhere in between that.
Yes it’s cash grabbing because they count on people not waiting to accumulate the Arx in game and taking the $$ shortcut instead, but that still doesn’t make it an expansion because it is still available in game without spending $$ if one so chooses.
"It's not food, it's candy!"
Look, I’m not saying FDEV is doing things right by players,
</thread>. It's an undefendable dog move to weasel word this stuff, which is why FD stay silent on it.
LEP has NEVER given us access to store content without having the ARX for it
Things the LEP has provided that are in the Arx store:
  • Gold Asp Explorer paintjob
  • All Midnight Black paintjob
... as well as a bunch of exclusive paintjobs and skins which are unavailable/time limited.

So despite getting access to everything in the Arx store being well outside my personal expectations... there is absolutely precedent for it, and I would also argue there would definitely be a strong case to argue that despite any generally accepted expectations, skins etc. are absolutely "content" and would fall under a lifetime expansion pass... noting I would equally argue that an expectation for skins and other cosmetic items might not be a reasonable expectation, though certainly inferable.

Either way, attempting to gatekeeping ship access from the LEP by saying it's in the Arx store doesn't hold water.

[1] There are things that could come under that expectation e.g pre-built ships, which I wouldn't expect... but as above, there's definitely an argument to be had if only on technicalities.
 
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People who bought the LTP have been pretty much scammed by FD. The ships are paid DLC and should be made available for the LTP. 'Lifetime Pass' ? ... FD don't appear to have a grasp on English. LTP are just maligned by people in this forum for demanding what they are legitimately entitled to, and that really is the cherry on top of the crude cake, UK style.
 
You are forgetting that the DLC is in fact a different product.

Under US law you would get nada beyond Horizons. Fdev have gone the extra mile, beyond that of even UK law. They have in fact kept true to the spirit of the game and their own ethos.

I am personally grateful of what is on offer. If paying a small amount keeps this game alive it sure is worth it.
 
You are forgetting that the DLC is in fact a different product.

Under US law you would get nada beyond Horizons. Fdev have gone the extra mile, beyond that of even UK law. They have in fact kept true to the spirit of the game and their own ethos.

I am personally grateful of what is on offer. If paying a small amount keeps this game alive it sure is worth it.
They haven’t gone as far as ship interiors and earth like worlds yet.
 
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