General / Off-Topic London Flats Fire

She is lying within 15 seconds. She totally forgets to mention raising revenue by selling off public assets; like the Railways, the water board, the gas, electricity and many more: All of which put money into the Tories treasury and enabled tax cuts, to gain votes. All of which are now very very profitable companies and ripping off the consumers, like you and I.

She is also talking about controlling spending, because the poor voter has to pay for it. No; she is attempting to make it acceptable to cut public services; such as pensions and the NHS, benefits and council spending.

No she isn't. Pubic assets back then were destroying the country. Once profitable private companies had been nationalised and were subsequently destroyed once the unions got their claws into them. British Rail destroyed the railways, we had the biggest aviation industry in the world and the biggest car industry in the world until they were nationalised and wrecked. Pretty much every industry we were ever good at got nationalised and was wrecked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent
 
No she isn't. Pubic assets back then were destroying the country. Once profitable private companies had been nationalised and were subsequently destroyed once the unions got their claws into them. British Rail destroyed the railways, we had the biggest aviation industry in the world and the biggest car industry in the world until they were nationalised and wrecked. Pretty much every industry we were ever good at got nationalised and was wrecked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent
I was alive during that time period. Yes the unions were too powerfull, yes they were holding the country to ransom. That however, is no excuse for the way she stripped the countries assets, to fund tax cuts to the few. She still changed how the unions worked, she still brought in laws to control the unions, she had no need to sell the public assets; as far as stopping them being a burden to the public purse.

The air and car industries were destroyed due to lack of funding and corruption across the pond. Boeing and the like were gaining contracts by greasing palms and making false claims about their products. Which killed any potential contracts for the U.K. manufactures. The X-1 is a prime example of this. However: U.K. companies had the know how and tectnology to build the products, but not the public backing to fund the projects at the scale required.
 

Javert

Volunteer Moderator
Can you provide evidence that they didn't? People knew about it. The conservatives have been overspending and are constantly criticised for not spending enough. Moaning that they haven't balanced the books isn't a justifiable complaint about austerity; It just shows how much we were and still are overspending. Most incredible of all is that the Tories dared to not buy off old people with perks (that cost the country a fortune) and labour managed to motivate young people to vote against about the only thing that might free up enough actual cash to do anything useful.

There are more ways to fix an economy than by making cuts without any stimulation to growth. I was listening to a fact based show with economists who were not affiliated to any political party recently. They didn't all agree on the level of austerity that was required to fix the problems post 2008, but what they did all agree on was that with hindsight, austerity was started too early - they should have let things run on 2 more years and then started austerity and the long term impact over decades would have been less bad. This is counter intuitive but this is what those experts all seemed to agree on. This also interestingly actually backs up Labour's decision (which I previously critisised as purely political) to keep going as they were between 2008 and 2010.

Many economists also think that the current Conservative policy is similar to a business that is eventually going to run itself into the ground - it is what happens when you put accountants completely in charge - all they know how to do is cut costs, and they have no idea how to stimulate growth.

I don't think I've denied that Labour were probably overspending prior to 2008 - my contention was that this was a minor issue compared to the issues caused by the international crash. This is like having a car crash, spending all your money in the bank on a new car, and than blaming the fact that you bought a pint of beer in the pub the night before the crash as the main cause of why you have no money left.

No she isn't. Pubic assets back then were destroying the country. Once profitable private companies had been nationalised and were subsequently destroyed once the unions got their claws into them. British Rail destroyed the railways, we had the biggest aviation industry in the world and the biggest car industry in the world until they were nationalised and wrecked. Pretty much every industry we were ever good at got nationalised and was wrecked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent

Your recent posts seem to be very fixed on one fairly right wing viewpoint. Have you considered that maybe the reality is a little bit more complicated than that? I voted Labour (against my principles) as a tactical vote, but I don't agree with them nationalising the power and water companies, although I do agree with them nationalising the railways, if it can be done legally. I don't really agree that the railways were worse before privatisation, and yes I was around back then and used them. Let's not forget our railway system is already pretty much massively subsidized by the taxpayer, even more so than it was when nationalised, and most of it is already effectively nationalised. There is just an overcoat of veneer on top to make it look like it's private, and even those parts are now often owned by the nationalised railway companies of other countries - this makes no sense whatsoever for UK taxpayers to be subsidising the German railways.

Anyway, my point is, I think Jeremy Corbyn's Labour government has some terrible policies, and some good ones. I think their government of the country would risk overspending and could be disastrous. However, I also think the Conservatives policy on Brexit is catastrophic (I'm defining catastrophic as worse than disastrous in my world :) ), therefore I vote tactically for the slightly less bad option.

Further, the Conservatives were in power from 2010 to 2017, and frankly in the last 2 years since 2015, their government has been completely incompetent and made major decisions that risk wrecking the country, and also created a massive us against them divide in the whole country. In my view they are not fit to govern for that reason alone, and any other party would be better than this lot, not necessarily because of their entire package of policies, but because they have got it catastrophically wrong on the big calls.
 
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There are more ways to fix an economy than by making cuts without any stimulation to growth. I was listening to a fact based show with economists who were not affiliated to any political party recently. They didn't all agree on the level of austerity that was required to fix the problems post 2008, but what they did all agree on was that with hindsight, austerity was started too early - they should have let things run on 2 more years and then started austerity and the long term impact over decades would have been less bad. This is counter intuitive but this is what those experts all seemed to agree on. This also interestingly actually backs up Labour's decision (which I previously critisised as purely political) to keep going as they were between 2008 and 2010.

Many economists also think that the current Conservative policy is similar to a business that is eventually going to run itself into the ground - it is what happens when you put accountants completely in charge - all they know how to do is cut costs, and they have no idea how to stimulate growth.

I don't think I've denied that Labour were probably overspending prior to 2008 - my contention was that this was a minor issue compared to the issues caused by the international crash. This is like having a car crash, spending all your money in the bank on a new car, and than blaming the fact that you bought a pint of beer in the pub the night before the crash as the main cause of why you have no money left.



Your recent posts seem to be very fixed on one fairly right wing viewpoint. Have you considered that maybe the reality is a little bit more complicated than that? I voted Labour (against my principles) as a tactical vote, but I don't agree with them nationalising the power and water companies, although I do agree with them nationalising the railways, if it can be done legally. I don't really agree that the railways were worse before privatisation, and yes I was around back then and used them. Let's not forget our railway system is already pretty much massively subsidized by the taxpayer, even more so than it was when nationalised, and most of it is already effectively nationalised. There is just an overcoat of veneer on top to make it look like it's private, and even those parts are now often owned by the nationalised railway companies of other countries - this makes no sense whatsoever for UK taxpayers to be subsidising the German railways.

Anyway, my point is, I think Jeremy Corbyn's Labour government has some terrible policies, and some good ones. I think their government of the country would risk overspending and could be disastrous. However, I also think the Conservatives policy on Brexit is catastrophic (I'm defining catastrophic as worse than disastrous in my world :) ), therefore I vote tactically for the slightly less bad option.

Further, the Conservatives were in power from 2010 to 2017, and frankly in the last 2 years since 2015, their government has been completely incompetent and made major decisions that risk wrecking the country, and also created a massive us against them divide in the whole country. In my view they are not fit to govern for that reason alone, and any other party would be better than this lot, not necessarily because of their entire package of policies, but because they have got it catastrophically wrong on the big calls.

There has been stimulation to growth; tax cuts to business, which attracts business, who employ people, who then have money to spend on stuff. Increases in tax free PAYE allowance (which was originally down to the Lib Dems to be fair), meaning less propping of wages by the ludicrous tax credit system. Of course what I said was fairly right wing; I was arguing a point to someone is left wing. I don't think it is unfair to suggest 90% of all the political posts in the off topic section are left wing, including yours. I'm centre right and I don't see any reason why I should have to justify that perfectly normal political view point in here.

They haven't been incompetent. They have asked the country a question that they thought they new the outcome of twice and utterly misjudged the outcome... twice. That is democracy for you. The conservatives policy on Brexit is carrying it out. Labours policy on Brexit is pretending they will carry it out while trying to win over enough people that they can scrap it.

Did the Tories really create an us and them divide or did the left create it? I'm not poor but I'm not rich either. I don't feel like it is a them and us situation. The left doesn't feel like that though.... in here you had people blaming the Tories for a fire and then we have this: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/day-rage-protest-live-updates-10658367 (used the Mirror because if id used the DM it would be dismissed as lies).
 
There has been stimulation to growth; tax cuts to business, which attracts business, who employ people, who then have money to spend on stuff. Increases in tax free PAYE allowance (which was originally down to the Lib Dems to be fair), meaning less propping of wages by the ludicrous tax credit system. Of course what I said was fairly right wing; I was arguing a point to someone is left wing. I don't think it is unfair to suggest 90% of all the political posts in the off topic section are left wing, including yours. I'm centre right and I don't see any reason why I should have to justify that perfectly normal political view point in here.

They haven't been incompetent. They have asked the country a question that they thought they new the outcome of twice and utterly misjudged the outcome... twice. That is democracy for you. The conservatives policy on Brexit is carrying it out. Labours policy on Brexit is pretending they will carry it out while trying to win over enough people that they can scrap it.

Did the Tories really create an us and them divide or did the left create it? I'm not poor but I'm not rich either. I don't feel like it is a them and us situation. The left doesn't feel like that though.... in here you had people blaming the Tories for a fire and then we have this: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/day-rage-protest-live-updates-10658367 (used the Mirror because if id used the DM it would be dismissed as lies).
People? Who whom are we meant to blame for what happened at the latest tower fire?

You are correct; you should not see yourself and a part of them and us. If you are genuine part of them; you would not be here, conversing with the common masses. If you were us and by us; I mean those lost by the state in general. Those struggling to pay the bills and eat; those who cannot afford a holiday and even if we could find a way to have one; we would probably have to explain and even ask permission to leave town and take that holiday. By us I mean, going to the store and counting the total cost of the items you are adding the the basket. Yes it is all relative, even the rich man, has issues paying his bills sometimes, because his bills are bigger and he still has to work to a budget. However: When you are being given less than you need to pay your rent; by a government that blames you for the cost of it. When you understand; that due to greed (a Tory trait) you are to become homeless, because you require more than the current policy allows; to meet the demands of your landlord and the state simply sends you to a charity, because there is no longer a net within the public sector. When you have walked in their shoes; seen the disappointment turn to fake joy, in the eyes of children or hard working people born in this country; someone like Corbyn, offers you hope.

The older I get, the faster I can see the lies in statements of most politicians. I see the contemptible deals theses people are prepared to make, just to stay in power. I see the way words and actions are twisted into the same old ideals. I can take the lies, the deceit and the attempts at manipulation, but when I hear the Tories try and convince me, that what their intentions and and what they are doing, is for all the people (these days the phrase is, 'all the working people'); it makes me want to burn it all down.

You quote a newspaper article that mention scuffles with the police, outside downing street. Did you read it all? I don't read the Mirror, because it is leftest propaganda; but I will read what is put in front of me as an example. Example of what? Two men arrested out of hundreds? Scuffles? Some people; many who where there, at that time, do have a right to be angry. Wanting to bring down the government, well replace it actually. Replace it with something for the people and not the few.
 
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...................... When you are being given less than you need to pay your rent; by a government that blames you for the cost of it. When you understand; that due to greed (a Tory trait) you are to become homeless, because you require more than the current policy allows; to meet the demands of your landlord and the state simply sends you to a charity, because there is no longer a net within the public sector. .................

I won't engage with people on my ignore list so I don't refer to anything your quote mentioned. However, today's Observer has an interesting article about a "Shelter" report:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/24/social-housing-poverty-homeless-shelter-rent

Housing crisis threatens a million families with eviction by 2020

Report shows combination of low wages, freezes to benefits and rising costs of renting could cause more than 1 million households to become homeless

By December 2016, nearly 76,000 households were living in emergency temporary accommodation such as bed and breakfasts, of which 60,000 were families with children or pregnant mothers. This is more than 10% up on the previous year and 58% more than in 2010 when just over 48,000 households were living in temporary accommodation.

(Their words.)
 
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I won't engage with people on my ignore list so I don't refer to anything your quote mentioned. However, today's Observer has an interesting article about a "Shelter" report:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/24/social-housing-poverty-homeless-shelter-rent

Housing crisis threatens a million families with eviction by 2020

Report shows combination of low wages, freezes to benefits and rising costs of renting could cause more than 1 million households to become homeless

By December 2016, nearly 76,000 households were living in emergency temporary accommodation such as bed and breakfasts, of which 60,000 were families with children or pregnant mothers. This is more than 10% up on the previous year and 58% more than in 2010 when just over 48,000 households were living in temporary accommodation.

(Their words.)
A single British born older male, is right at the bottom of the allocation list for even those places.

I have to ask; do they treat refugees in the same way? Putting them into instant debt.
 
A single British born older male, is right at the bottom of the allocation list for even those places.

I have to ask; do they treat refugees in the same way? Putting them into instant debt.

Assuming for a minute they don't treat refugees the same way. The solution to that is not to insist the refugees be thrown out or that the government is harder on refugees. To do so would be to complain about the wrong thing and about the wrong people.
 
A single British born older male, is right at the bottom of the allocation list for even those places.

I have to ask; do they treat refugees in the same way? Putting them into instant debt.

The thing about "Emergency Accommodation" provision is that the local authority is not legally bound to provide it if it can be said that the person(s) have made themselves "intentionally homeless". I believe that they find all sorts of excuses reasons why someone has "intentionally" become homeless and of course males seem to provide them with either more of an excuse or perhaps make them (the decider) feel less "guilty" about classifying them that way. (That is just my subjective view, I have no evidence to support it.)

There is a further issue beyond the emergency provision and that is the allocation of social housing tenancy depends on a points-based qualification and of course single people with no disabilities / health problems qualify for the lowest points.

My daughter worked for the local authority where she lives, a long way from my home - when I retired she made enquiries (without asking me) about getting me into a council retirement bungalow (you know the sort of thing) in her area and they worked out that based on my presumed points level (single, good health) it would take being on the list for 325 years before I would get offered a tenancy. (I didn't apply to go on the list - LOL)
 

Javert

Volunteer Moderator
There has been stimulation to growth; tax cuts to business, which attracts business, who employ people, who then have money to spend on stuff. Increases in tax free PAYE allowance (which was originally down to the Lib Dems to be fair), meaning less propping of wages by the ludicrous tax credit system. Of course what I said was fairly right wing; I was arguing a point to someone is left wing. I don't think it is unfair to suggest 90% of all the political posts in the off topic section are left wing, including yours. I'm centre right and I don't see any reason why I should have to justify that perfectly normal political view point in here.

They haven't been incompetent. They have asked the country a question that they thought they new the outcome of twice and utterly misjudged the outcome... twice. That is democracy for you. The conservatives policy on Brexit is carrying it out. Labours policy on Brexit is pretending they will carry it out while trying to win over enough people that they can scrap it.

Did the Tories really create an us and them divide or did the left create it? I'm not poor but I'm not rich either. I don't feel like it is a them and us situation. The left doesn't feel like that though.... in here you had people blaming the Tories for a fire and then we have this: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/day-rage-protest-live-updates-10658367 (used the Mirror because if id used the DM it would be dismissed as lies).

Interestingly I don't see myself as left wing at all - I don't think my views have changed that much over the years and they would have probably been seen as centre or even slightly centre right, not that long ago. My perception is that what was considered very right wing years ago, is now considered as centre and normal.

For example, I don't see it as a socialist hard left policy to increase income tax to 45% for those earning over £80k. If they were increasing it to 95% like Labour did back in the 70s, I might consider that as pretty left wing socialist, however, changing from 40-45% on people who are in the top 10% income, to me is a debatable policy. Sure, we can debate that it actually might not have the impact expected in terms of increased tax revenue, but I don't really see that type of marginal increase as some kind of radical socialist / communist agenda.

Same point for tuition fees - I don't really see it as a hard left socialist policy to propose that the education of young people should be funded by the state / taxpayer. Sure, we can debate to what age - 16/18/21 or whatever, this should take place, but I haven't heard many people arguing that 10 years olds should have to borrow money to go to school. Sure we can debate whether higher education should be funded out of general taxation, or by additional taxes (and in the end that's what they are whether we call them loans or not) on those who take those courses, but I don't really consider either solution to be some kind of radical left or right wing policy. To me that's all pretty centre stuff.

I've also argued against nationalisation of industries like power or water, especially if it's for ideological reasons, although I do think those should probably be regulated more.

In addition, I've somewhat agreed with Yaffle on the pure "tax the rich" agenda not really working as intended, and I felt that the Lib Dem policy of spreading that burden over a wider income range would work better (and the Economist magazine by the way agreed with that as they reluctantly endorsed the Lib Dems before the election - can you imagine that - the Conversvatives, party of business and self growth, party of the economy don't even manage to get the Economist magazine to support their election proposals).
 
So far, every test panel of cladding has failed fire safety tests. At the time of writing 60 tower blocks (from 25 Council regions) have had panels tested. There are over 600 such tower blocks with cladding.
 
So far, every test panel of cladding has failed fire safety tests. At the time of writing 60 tower blocks (from 25 Council regions) have had panels tested. There are over 600 such tower blocks with cladding.

Cheap cladding used so that councils can save money and not cut in other areas.

Now they're going to have to cut funds to other areas to not only remove this cladding but replace it with more expensive stuff.

The last thing the Tories needed was a massive round of cuts at local levels, such as libraries, swimming pools, public toilets and playschool closures, that people will immediately notice just as they're trying to say austerity is over.

Karma.
 
Cheap cladding used so that councils can save money and not cut in other areas.

.....................

Seems more likely that the construction companies lied about using compliant materials so as to reduce their costs and hence increase profits.

It's not like the councils went down to B&Q and bought cheap stuff to fit themselves is it?
 
Seems more likely that the construction companies lied about using compliant materials so as to reduce their costs and hence increase profits.

It's not like the councils went down to B&Q and bought cheap stuff to fit themselves is it?

No but it is like the councils used the cheapest contractors available, people more likely to cut corners, and then failed to carry out proper (and expensive) safety checks.
 
At the risk of being badly flamed (and possibly offending people; I apologise right now to any person that I DO offend) it is possible that the Grenfell disaster is a blessing in disguise. It takes a major and highly visible incident to force the bureaucraps to get off their fat cat behinds and do something. For example, when the Titanic sank there were not enough lifeboats for the full complement of passengers and crew, which meant over 1,500 souls were lost. Now ALL ships have to have enough in the way of lifeboats and rafts for a full complement (although I will admit that sometimes these regulations get flouted).
 
No but it is like the councils used the cheapest contractors available, people more likely to cut corners, and then failed to carry out proper (and expensive) safety checks.

Well all council, authority and government projects by law have to be put out for "competitive tender" and there have to be VERY strong reasons to not select the lowest.

Yes proper checks should have been carried out and certificates of compliance have to be awarded. However, in this particular case one assumes that the cladding panels must have been declared compliant with the regulations and it will now be up to the authorities to determine if the compliance was falsified, the certification was incompetent or corrupt and if the building regulations were correct / sufficient.

There is a lot written already about the "scrap red tape" attitude in government since 2010 plus of course maybe the cuts to council funding since then have impacted on the checking you refer to.
 
At the risk of being badly flamed (and possibly offending people; I apologise right now to any person that I DO offend) it is possible that the Grenfell disaster is a blessing in disguise. It takes a major and highly visible incident to force the bureaucraps to get off their fat cat behinds and do something. For example, when the Titanic sank there were not enough lifeboats for the full complement of passengers and crew, which meant over 1,500 souls were lost. Now ALL ships have to have enough in the way of lifeboats and rafts for a full complement (although I will admit that sometimes these regulations get flouted).
Agreed; it is just a very sad fact of life, that such things, which are often predicted; have to happen, before the world shouts and things are done to make changes. You quoted the Titanic; again, it was a cost issue and an ascetic issue that were the driving factors behind the lack of lifeboats. I read yesterday, that the Tories are to drop plans to water down fire safety standards in schools, due to this latest tragedy; I won't quote the source as I don't feel in is reliable enough for me to use as a quote, but it is there and with a little research can be confirmed. It is however a sad fact; that those who have the gold, make the rules and to hell with everyone else.
 
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