Long Goodbye (for now)

I think that is the point one was making. Open Letter Goodbye Posts tend to make the reader believe the OP considers it Very Important that they are leaving. Before the reader even gets to your arguments, he might already have shifted mindset from 'hey, what will he say?' to 'great, another guy who thinks he's God's Greatest Gift To The Internet'. The last sentence somewhat reinforces that. Giving us 'One Last Chance' before you'll abandon us somewhat suggests you think most of us would care either way. Personally I dont really see why I should be motivating you. If you cant even motivate yourself, maybe you should move on to something you find easier to enjoy.

As for your post itself, not much to say. I like the flight model very much, you don't. Opinions are weird like that.
Yeah, opinions are like that. My last two sentences were nothing more than they appeared to be: a search for a reason, any reason, why something might be changing or getting less boring. Some justification I could hold onto for not simply writing off a great deal of effort put into the game.

As for the 'one last chance before you abandon us' well, I suppose if I was that arrogant or self-deluding as to think it matters to anyone outside of my immediate group of friends that play with me in ED I'd be a pretty small person indeed. I'm not, I don't, I'm just a bit sad because ED has a lot of potential and I don't really *want* to write it off.

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Bye!

Can I haz ur stuffz?
ED doesn't have a feature like that, remember?
 
I guess I did a poor job of pointing out the real problem and since you seem to be trying to understand my grief I'll be happy to explain.

My problem is that turn rate isn't constant. One can actually turn faster when using flight assist on than with it off. If you keep the throttle in the optimal zone, you can change your attack angle more quickly than if you have the trottle on full or at zero (or in the range near full or zero outside of the optimal range). If, however, you turn off flight assist the turn rate matches that of being sub-optimal. Just like a person who doesn't manage their throttle, you're gimped. The turn rate with assist disabled should be exactly the same as optimal since you are only changing the angular momentum and not absolute velocity.

The net effect of this is that I'm better off keeping flight assist on and managing my throttle than turning flight assist off. The only maneuvering advantage I can gain by disabling flight assist is a single sudden relative velocity change at the right moment.

With a 'conda or corvette I can acheive the exact same maneuver without ever turning off flight assist. My inertial change is slower than my turn speed so I can wind up flying backwards simply by turning at optimal and then hitting boosters when I reach my desired angle of attack. This means I actually hurt myself when disabling flight assist.

Active decrease in maneuverability, very little strategic surprise quotient... flight assist on/off is too nerfed to be any use.

Can only speak from my experience - Two things that are essential for advanced FA-OFF control

1. With FA-OFF you are controlling THRUST not SPEED

2. Assigning a reverse thrust axis is essential for decelerating into optimum speed bands for maneuvering, I can't stress how important it is to know the numbers on your ship to fly it efficiently, also the combinations of vertical and lateral thrust and how it affects the performance from the main engines. In the bigger ships I have memorised the speed bands based on cargo load and thrusters installed.

Hard to explain, advanced FA-OFF flying get's very deep. At the basic or intermediate scale it can seem quite simple, hence why I think some get to those levels and then believe the ship doesn't perform as well as FA-ON, it really is down to an inefficient technique.

Anyway, that's why I enjoy FA-OFF, constantly learning and getting better. Constantly doing calculations and timing thrust changes to keep things efficient. Once you can replicate FA-ON, plus have the advantages of FA-OFF, it becomes very rewarding.
 
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Edit: Agony_Aunt, the real issue will be if a lot of players decide to take a break for few years. Hopefully those who support the present line of development will be enough to finance slow seven aged development plan. If Frontiers remain in silence and continue to not respond to player wishes, I’m going to buy season 7 only. I’m bored too and I have no intention to pay to be bored.

The issue isn't if people stop playing. The issue is if people stop paying for seasons. People love new shiny stuff, they always do. :D
 
Are you sure you are cutting throttle immediately when turning FA off? If not, the thrust will be added as you turn and you'll leave optimal zone real fast.
Perhaps this is an Xbox vs. PC thing.

When I decrease throttle with FA off I actually apply reverse (braking) thrust. The increase throttle (right bumper) now works like a gas peddle and the decrease (left bumper) works like a break, applying thrust/reverse-thrust rather than acting like a throttle at all.
 
Good post OP.

I likened exploring to a chase scene on Scooby Doo. You see the odd new thing but basically it's the same thing going round and round. Away from the bubble the galaxy is dead, there's nothing happening in it, it may as well be a painting or a theatre set. Where are the supernovas, the black holes feeding off stars, the asteroids crashing into each other and planets? It's not there and I doubt it ever will be.

Oh yeah, the great seasons new stuff rip-off. Yeah, I said it, rip-off, cause that's what it is, blinding folk with new stuff to paper over the cracks.
 
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Perhaps this is an Xbox vs. PC thing.

When I decrease throttle with FA off I actually apply reverse (braking) thrust. The increase throttle (right bumper) now works like a gas peddle and the decrease (left bumper) works like a break, applying thrust/reverse-thrust rather than acting like a throttle at all.

Sounds like you need to reconfigure your controls more than anything.

Why are you even trying to use FA off with an Xbox controller? The lack of control can't be worth the 20% extra accel/turn rate
 
OP, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I agree with a lot of what you said, and I think it's good to have well written criticisms out in the open, even if it's just personal opinions. Hope you find something else to enjoy, I'm keeping an eye out myself ;)
 
Basically, you want ED to become like every other MMO. Grind forever, buy Ship of Uberness +3, roflstomp others. It reduces 99% of the game to boring crap, until you reach the 'endgame'. Seriously glad ED isnt going that way, and skill rather than money dictates what happens.

I don't think anyone wants that? Large ships can't really catch smaller ones, so while a large ship can (and should) have an advantage in a duel the smaller ships can't be forced to combat. I still fly an FDL for anything other than res mining or merit farming since the bigger ships with bigger guns are just too slow without any compelling reason to use outside of endurance and kills-per-minute.

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Sounds like you need to reconfigure your controls more than anything.

Why are you even trying to use FA off with an Xbox controller? The lack of control can't be worth the 20% extra accel/turn rate
I have found absolutely no option or control configuration on xbox to change this.

If you know of one or can link something?

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Can only speak from my experience - Two things that are essential for advanced FA-OFF control

1. With FA-OFF you are controlling THRUST not SPEED

2. Assigning a reverse thrust axis is essential for decelerating into optimum speed bands for maneuvering, I can't stress how important it is to know the numbers on your ship to fly it efficiently, also the combinations of vertical and lateral thrust and how it affects the performance from the main engines. In the bigger ships I have memorised the speed bands based on cargo load and thrusters installed.

Hard to explain, advanced FA-OFF flying get's very deep. At the basic or intermediate scale it can seem quite simple, hence why I think some get to those levels and then believe the ship doesn't perform as well as FA-ON, it really is down to an inefficient technique.

Anyway, that's why I enjoy FA-OFF, constantly learning and getting better. Constantly doing calculations and timing thrust changes to keep things efficient. Once you can replicate FA-ON, plus have the advantages of FA-OFF, it becomes very rewarding.

Yes I know I'm actually talking about that already. That's one of the huge problems with playing the game. When I turn FA off I can apply thrust or reverse thrust but my turn rate is the same as when I have too much thrust or too little thrust with FA on: crappy. I achieve the same results only better with FA on. FA off is actually so gimped that it's useless.
 
Yeah, opinions are like that. My last two sentences were nothing more than they appeared to be: a search for a reason, any reason, why something might be changing or getting less boring. Some justification I could hold onto for not simply writing off a great deal of effort put into the game.

As for the 'one last chance before you abandon us' well, I suppose if I was that arrogant or self-deluding as to think it matters to anyone outside of my immediate group of friends that play with me in ED I'd be a pretty small person indeed. I'm not, I don't, I'm just a bit sad because ED has a lot of potential and I don't really *want* to write it off.

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ED doesn't have a feature like that, remember?

I know, but since your list of complaints was so far off course I figured it was fitting.

Buddy of mine is a professional pilot, he plays Star Citizen, loves the flight model, which as it happens, is almost identical to Elite: Dangerous for the very same reasons, game play. They've even got FBW options just like Elite does, only thing they have over Elite, black/red out at much low g thresholds, which have been changed many times over the past year or so and are now very close to where Elite's are. MY only problem with the Star Citizen flight model is that it's too FPS friendly still, but they are working on that, it's almost the same flying a ship there as it is in Elite. My buddy doesn't like Elite because of the lack of team options, we can fly together in Star Citizen literally, both of us in his or my ships, and we like that...we'll like it even more when those extra people can do something other than man a turret if there is one.

I've flown, and the flight model in Elite is fine with me, I know it's not meant to be realistic, it's a WWII dog fighter style flight model for game purposes, that's it. Realistic flight physics in space aren't much fun for combat, and they would require the actual long range weapons that would be used in space combat, where you fire at some little blip on the sensors that you may well never lay your eyes on. Yeah, that's not really much fun for most folks, makes for a crappy game experience.
 
Can't disagree with anything you've posted, yet I'm still having fun, as this is the closest I'm ever going to get to a real cockpit.
*Edit* You'll be back.
 
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I don't think anyone wants that? Large ships can't really catch smaller ones, so while a large ship can (and should) have an advantage in a duel the smaller ships can't be forced to combat. I still fly an FDL for anything other than res mining or merit farming since the bigger ships with bigger guns are just too slow without any compelling reason to use outside of endurance and kills-per-minute.

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I have found absolutely no option or control configuration on xbox to change this.

If you know of one or can link something?

Unfortunately the Xbox is very limited when it comes to control configurations. I know some people are able to do, I wouldn't stand a chance trying to fight with FA-OFF on the xbox. I use my entire body when flying, stick,throttle, pedals assigned to lateral and yaw thrusters, rocker switches for vertical thrust etc etc.
 
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Forward: This is an open letter. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm simply giving my honest opinion of why I'm completely bored out of my mind while playing ED.

I quit playing ED about 5 days ago because I wasn't having fun anymore and wanted a break. it's been long enough and I'm going to explain why I won't be coming back until a few things change.

The review:

What I absolutely love about ED:

1.) Depth of detail. Seriously, this shows passion and immersion and I love it. The ship detail, subsystems, all wonderful.
2.) The galaxy size. Again, this places a level of immersion into the game that I absolutely love.
3.) The attempts at faction play. Nice concept with a few frustrating flaws, but when finished or fleshed out it will be very good.
4.) Frameshift FTL and Jump. I know you called it hyperspace, frontier, but I just delete that in my own mind and call it an alcubierre bubble. It doesn't upset my inner geek as much.

The problems I simply can't abide:

Combat:

Absolutely no attempts are being made to make this an actual space game. I know being a fighter jock is fun for some people, but I'm actually a pilot. I grew up with a dad who is a flight instructor and used to send new students to find a bucket of propwash. At 12. (I started my career in smart-mastery early).

My point with this is that if I wanted to play an aircraft flight sim I have a whole lot of choices and they all do a better job of being fighter jock sims than ED does. ED can't be a fighter jock sim, because it's a sci-fi space game. You know, in SPACE. I love Star Wars and I used to play X-wing vs. Tie fighter and that was a lot of fun, but ED isn't Star Wars and doesn't try to be.

You gimp the flight physics to balance a false playing field for no benefit. It doesn't make the game more fun. It doesn't add to the realism (it detracts in fact). I'm not even talking about max velocity rather than acceleration. That's a pet-peeve but it's not nearly enough to hack me off. What really ticks me off is your whacked-out 'balance' physics.

I want to have room to get better. SKILL. That's what draws me to games like Darksouls. It's hard as hell, but if you spend time you can get really good at it. ED has a shallow competency curve. That means you can get better in MARGINS only.

Here is the amazing sum total of the strategy of ED combat:

1.) the jouster: run at the bad guy and shoot, sometimes using thrusters to alter your vector by tiny little bits. First person to get knocked off their hourse... er... lose their shields... is in trouble.

2.) the turning game: faster ships try to stay out of the slower ship's primary weapon envelope. Skill component: the pilot of a slower ship can hit reverse and forward and mess up a faster ship, bringing them into engagement.

3.) tactics with turrets: well it's broke so it doesn't exist, but we could talk here about the balance of turrets vs. gimball vs. forward-fire. Unfortunately turrets either don't fire, or fire at nothing, or turn too slowly, or burn too much power, or generate too much heat. This is a bald-faced attempt to make huge expensive ships nothing more than huge slow fighters. Why!? what's the point? No navy in their right mind would even bother building anything like this. The cost-benefit makes no sense. Sure small fighters have a chance against big ships ('condas and corvettes and clippers and such) but basically you're making people work... and grinding is a horrible and boring job, don't think it is anything else... for basically what? A big, slow, hard-hitting (at least in front) fighter. That's it. It's a bloody huge fighter. Worse, what navy would buy a ship design into service that has such horrible fields of fire!? No navy. Your idea of game balance here basically ONLY makes sense to a bunch of people trying to make everyone happy. It isn't tactical, or strategic, or immersive. It breaks the entire military fiction.

Worse still, you have this weird... something... for turning ships when flight assist is disabled. This is really quite simple: angular momentum proximate torque guys. Thrusters provide torque to alter the ship's angular momentum. Mass, inertia and thrust. it's not a hard problem. Unless, of course, it's 'unfair' for someone with skill to kill someone with no skill. I suppose that might be a good reason to come up with a completely nerfed flight control on big ships. Flight assist for weenies, when you have the skill turn it off. Don't level the playing field, that makes the game have a player skill cap and that ruins it's endurance over time.

In the end, my primary problem with combat is that you're followed the tried-and-true MMO model of Dragonbal-Z combat. This isn't even my final form. If I grind and grind I can get even bigger with bigger weapons. Nothing changes except size and power. BOOOOOORRRRRIIIIIIINNNNNGG

Exploration:

Once you've seen 800 trinary systems, you've seen 800 trinary systems. I know this is a technical challenge. I know exactly how incredibly hard it is to create a universe of 400 billion stars and not having a massive amount of predictability in the system generation logic for exploration. The code for generating workable stellar physics in a system must be a real PITA to manage as it is. But really... it gets incredibly old, incredibly fast.

Trade:

No supply and demand, no monetary exchange... there is NO ECONOMY. Some people may prefer making money with trade rather than the mononotony of the limited combat model, but without any dynamics (you know, the variables that make an economy difficult to predict) it's really just a simple matter of finding a route and then doing it over and over and over and over and over and over.

PvP:

Combat logging is bad, but so is the game environment. If you have the money to kit a ship out enough for self-defense you face a choice: You can either double (or even tripple) the amoung of BORING GRINDING you have to do by kitting weapons that can defend you against player killers, or you can be cannon fodder for any roaming PvPers. That's it. Pick one.

You can either play the PvE game or the PvP game, but trying to do both is not going to happen. Worse, to play together at all in PvE you have to expose yourself to PvP. This means that even if you fix combat logging, PvE is going to be completely ruined. No community goals will be met, nobody with a shaddow of a life outside of ED is going to be able to do faction play, and the PvP roaming wings will basically run the field.

Read the Art of War. The PvP wings get every single advantage in timing, placement, choice of engagement, division of forces, preparedness, etc... etc...

Conclusion/Summary

In the end, there is nothing to keep me (or really anyone not trying to justify their investment of time) playing the game for very long. There isn't any real staying value or anything worth working for. Getting enough money to finally have 700 million credits in a ship just so you can have the ship (and play it exactly like the cheaper ships only with more guns and slower turn speed) doesn't serve a purpose.

I challenge you to give me 1, just 1 good argument against being bored with this game. Give me a challenge that I'll enjoy meeting. Anyone?

Have some rep for a perfectly reasonably explained post.

Expect the usual snarky replies (already happened).

If you're really lucky, you'll get an especially acerbic reply from a certain individual who will remain nameless but on who's foot you stomped all over :)

I'm with you on the flight assist off and flight model shenanigans.... HOWEVER! ....

I will point out that FDEV made the decision that this game should try to appeal to just about everyone who fancies playing it - that makes the likes of you and I "edge-cases" (some of the snarky ones might even call us head-cases ;) ) - our opinions do have merit - but in some other universe where Elite: Dangerous was more sim and less arcade-game-with-some-sim-properties. Alas, we're both stuck in the latter universe, and we appear to be in a minority, so, where the flight model and FA Off stuff is concerned - we have no chance ;)

As for exploration - I am Elite in exploration (and not by farming neutron stars either), even wrote an app for it. My trouble is that I want to explore and also want to be in the Bubble when new stuff is introduced in the game - and my solution was to recently purchase another account so I can choose to do one or t'other when the feeling takes me.

I love Elite - from v1 to "v4" now. I'm playing with what we've got. I don't grind, and that actually makes the game better for me. There are lots of things I don't like about this game, but I've learned to love and play the game despite them - perhaps you can too.

Regards o7
 
Basically, you want ED to become like every other MMO. Grind forever, buy Ship of Uberness +3, roflstomp others. It reduces 99% of the game to boring crap, until you reach the 'endgame'. Seriously glad ED isnt going that way, and skill rather than money dictates what happens.
With respect, id much rather they never tried to MMO-Ify the game in the first place but if thier going to step into the arena they need to get off the fence.

Also, i don't thing they have to be 'OP'. They should have 'realistic' limitations with regards to their size, weight, etc. such as;
- Very tedious to travel with (uses a LOT of fuel to jump, and by extension has a MASSIVE fuel tank that is very slow to refuel with even the best scoop available).
- Vulnerable to being ganged up on by Several small relatively cheap ships because they are reliant more on turrets as thier size limits handling.
- Struggles to win the interdiction mini-game again due to being a lumbering space whale. (can't reliably interdict smaller ships, cant reliably avoid being interdicted)

i could continue adding more. the point is these should be 1v1 balanced against the other 2 large ships. HOWEVER- for the price of the A-rated power plant on one of the big 3, you could have 4 guys in vultures and that should be a real threat. 1v1 any of the Big 3 should 'roflstomp' anything smaller then an anaconda. or simply be able to tank it till high-waking if its too small to track with turrets.
 
Hello Skyleach...Quick question...What would you feel combat should be technically other than what it is now ? If the flight physics were for you to design how would you prefer it to be ?
I would be genuinely intersted to know your thoughts and ideas.
Flimley.
 

Yaffle

Volunteer Moderator
Hello Skyleach...Quick question...What would you feel combat should be technically other than what it is now ? If the flight physics were for you to design how would you prefer it to be ?
I would be genuinely intersted to know your thoughts and ideas.
Flimley.

More importantly, how many Flimley points?
 
I agree with the post, but I am hanging in there in the hope that FD are listening and will make changes.

If Wings is suspended, I would go back to open play as I would have half a chance at playing my own game without getting killed.

I like the CG's, but in open they are very very high risk with PVPers in wings.
 
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I've flown, and the flight model in Elite is fine with me, I know it's not meant to be realistic, it's a WWII dog fighter style flight model for game purposes, that's it. Realistic flight physics in space aren't much fun for combat, and they would require the actual long range weapons that would be used in space combat, where you fire at some little blip on the sensors that you may well never lay your eyes on. Yeah, that's not really much fun for most folks, makes for a crappy game experience.

Kristov, I frequently give you rep because you say an awful lot of good stuff on the forums that I agree with.

I'll just point out that I would pay money for a game where the physics was modelled after the Star Carrier series of books.

I like reading military sci-fi, and that series method of fighting interstellar battles is appealing, and is probably why ED's space-fights/flight model sort of disappoints - but I also realise that for the purposes of FDEV, they need to appeal to the widest audience, so the gameplay needs to be, uh, adjusted to suit.

Regards o7
 
Yes I know I'm actually talking about that already. That's one of the huge problems with playing the game. When I turn FA off I can apply thrust or reverse thrust but my turn rate is the same as when I have too much thrust or too little thrust with FA on: crappy. I achieve the same results only better with FA on. FA off is actually so gimped that it's useless.

Sorry but that is completely untrue, not even sure how you came to that conclusion if you regularly fly with FA-OFF.

FA-ON - You increase/decrease throttle to the optimum speed band for turns.

FA-OFF - You apply thrust to accelerate into the speed band, or reduce to zero thrust and apply reverse thrust to decelerate into the optimum maneuvering speed band.

There is no magic with FA ON or OFF - Assist off merely requires the pilot to the do the calculations and optimum speed corrections manually. It is also essential to use the other thrusters - FA-OFF only provides partial assist with the vertical thrusters, everything else must be done manually in order to replicate FA-ON.

Honestly mate, I don't think you have fully grasped how it works at an advanced level, hence the frustration :)
 
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I agree with a lot of what you say, I think you have nailed some of the issues. I disagree on the flightmodel to a certain extent because I honestly believe if it was a true-space sim it would be boring, especially if it followed the mass effect reasoning with the largest ships fighting well out of visual range from their opponents. Anyway that's not my point, I have a few questions to add if you wish to answer:

1) Do you believe you have experienced all the game has to offer - Player factions, CG's etc?
2) Even if you paid extortionately for Backer status would you say you have got value for money?
3) Would you consider coming back when there are more updates say in 6 months/12 months time. Even if some but not all of the issues are fixed?

What I'm effectively saying with the 3 questions is that no game will last forever, if you feel you've gotten enough enjoyment to validate your purchase then that's arguably a great success in itself.
Yes there are improvements to be made but if you answer "Yes" to all 3 questions then there's no reason for us to suggest you keep playing right now as it will probably just lead to an arguement. Everyone needs a break sometime and it would be nice if no players wanted to leave but frankly it's a fact of life :) Enjoy the break, go play some other games and see you back sometime (hopefully).
 
OP: Sensible points. Flight mechanics aside it also sounds like you simply 'finished' the game. There is limited content, limitations to the BGS and gameplay and after many (maybe hundreds in your case?) of hours any game gets stale. Then you're left with those who are happy to grind doing the same thing in the hope of later developments, and those who need to move on to a new game. Try a new genre, you'll be surprised what you enjoy. At the moment I split my time between Elite, Battlefield 4, GTA V and Project Cars and feel that spread avoids me getting too obsessed and annoyed with any one game.

There seems to be the occasional impression around here that this game should hold our attention for 10 years and 1000s of hours of gameplay. That it's a lifestyle. I don't like how that's developed, it's not healthy.

Maybe you'll get the urge to hop back on for the occasional jaunt after a break. Happy gaming wherever you are.

Edit: Ninja'd a bit by the great Alex ;)
 
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