Make Trading less 17th Century....simple, easy, small change

[Innigo]

The original Elite was intended as a trading game that just so happened to involve spaceships and pirates. I would like to see that in ED but from a 2014 PoV. Assuming FTL communication between systems then there's no reason for players to not have access to market prices at other stations - for a price. Worried about taking all the risk out, then make the prices more dynamic.
Some items will be wanted by the kilotonne, but others won't. So just as there's an available quantity to buy, shouldn't there be a quantity for the demand as well. No one's going to pay top notch prices for a commodity when you have 10x more than they need?

But even with this facility, the ability to call up the prices from systems you've visited should be a given, so if you just want to refer to the list relating to the system you were at 5 minutes ago, you don't have to fork out for the up-to-date data, especially if you're dealing with a large quantity demand item.

Assuming non-FTL communication then it becomes a little bit different, but offers up an opportunity for gameplay - information running. Market data would be vital and the more up-to-date the better. So pick up the market data from one system and run it to another, with the data coming less valuable by the second, but you may be able to sell it 4 or 5 times in different systems before it becomes. Hell, if they implemented communication between stations and ships without landing data running could be a career path.

Not up to date on the lore. FTL communication yes/no?

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Trade data is guarded jealously by individual star systems. To leave with trade data would be breaking the law and result in a bounty on your head.

This makes no sense whatsoever and if true would have only one effect; stifle trade. IRL the price of commodities are known to anyone who wishes to know anywhere on the planet at any time.

 

[Tettric]

That's what the Elite lore says about it...

Systems guard their trade data to stop other systems exploiting their economies causing their's to crash and the other's to prosper. In the case of unstable systems there are also tactical considerations to take into account so that invading factions cannot cut off what they need most, or don't find out that now would be a good time to attack because they are running low on weapons etc.

As far as the Elite lore goes there is no FTL communications which is why you get the propaganda missions. Ships can travel FTL but signals can't (you can still call your friends in other systems though, for gameplay purposes).

 

[Innigo]

That's what the Elite lore says about it...

Systems guard their trade data to stop other systems exploiting their economies causing their's to crash and the other's to prosper. In the case of unstable systems there are also tactical considerations to take into account so that invading factions cannot cut off what they need most, or don't find out that now would be a good time to attack because they are running low on weapons etc.

As far as the Elite lore goes there is no FTL communications which is why you get the propaganda missions. Ships can travel FTL but signals can't (you can still call your friends in other systems though, for gameplay purposes).

Then the lore is dumb I'm afraid. You can't cover a bad mechanic with bad lore. I wondered about the comms thing as one of the books features FTL comms.

 

[Tettric]

I beg to differ. I know you probably want to read where your next profit is coming from rather than working it out but I find waiting to see whether I've made the right purchase to be more fun than reading numbers and deciding which one is higher. This is also how the original trade system worked back in 1984. I like it as it is rather than having a dumbed down edition. Trading is already the easiest and most lucrative career in the game. It doesn't need to become simpler.

The lore on the matter makes sense. Just because we have a open global economy here it doesn't mean that the galaxy in the future will have an open intergalactic economy...

 

[Britannkic]

I have all the trade data for each station I have visited at my finger tip via the iPad/camera

hyperspace or super cruise, I'm checking prices out, easy and simple

 

[Innigo]

I beg to differ. I know you probably want to read where your next profit is coming from rather than working it out but I find waiting to see whether I've made the right purchase to be more fun than reading numbers and deciding which one is higher. This is also how the original trade system worked back in 1984. I like it as it is rather than having a dumbed down edition. Trading is already the easiest and most lucrative career in the game. It doesn't need to become simpler.

The lore on the matter makes sense. Just because we have a open global economy here it doesn't mean that the galaxy in the future will have an open intergalactic economy...

Never wise to make assumptions about people you don't know. I like realism in my simulations, even when it's something unreal that's being simulated. However, how markets work in market economies are not unreal. They are very real and work entirely unlike how they're being portrayed in Elite. Back in 1984 when I was 13 this was fine. First, I was a kid and didn't know any better. Second, games were much less sophisticated back then. But this isn't 1984, this is 2014 and what worked 30 years ago doesn't work today. What looked fine back then can look shallow or lazy now. Which is what we've got. A shallow, boring trading system that's functionally little different to it's Great Grandfather.

Having access to the prices in other systems in a non real time communication environment does not equal a simpler trading system. In fact, it doesn't even equal it in an environment with real time communication. It's one thing to know the price of a thing somewhere else, it's another to get that thing there whilst it's still at that price.

But we have it easy, we have non-real-time communication. The information you're basing your decision on could be minutes, hours or days old. It could be based on information taken just before a Type 9 docked with a hold full of the cargo you're contemplating. It's all very well knowing the price of a commodity, but how stable is that price. Will you get that price for 100 tonnes, or will that be enough to saturate the market and push the price right down DURING your own trade? Maybe you need to look at the historical data for X commodity to understand how much you can get away with shipping.

You know, depth.

This has NOTHING, let me repeat NOTHING to do with making trading easier. It's easy now, but it's also unreal, stupid, annoying and utterly lacking depth. It's basically the same as what it was back in 1984, but with more things to buy and sell.

And no, the lore doesn't makes sense. Economies depend on suppliers making it as easy as possible to sell to customers, and keeping the price a secret makes that harder, thus stifles the economy and ultimately that helps no one. We have an open global economy because if we didn't it would crash. It especially doesn't make sense when the prices are readily available as soon as you land on the station - so all it would take is for the Federation or Empire to have a few dozen pilots buzzing around all the key systems keeping tabs on prices (presumably with a notepad and pencil - cutting edge spy stuff here) and reporting back. Given we're talking about interstellar civilizations here this isn't exactly resource hungry espionage.

Even back during the Cold War, the USSR told people it wanted to export to how much they were willing to sell their stuff for.

If you want to keep a secret, cause that info getting out is damaging, you don't tell people. You DON'T jealously guard it until people park up and want to do some shopping. I can't even begin to image how you explain that as making sense.

 

[Antenociti]

I beg to differ. I know you probably want to read where your next profit is coming from rather than working it out but I find waiting to see whether I've made the right purchase to be more fun than reading numbers and deciding which one is higher. This is also how the original trade system worked back in 1984. I like it as it is rather than having a dumbed down edition. Trading is already the easiest and most lucrative career in the game. It doesn't need to become simpler.

The lore on the matter makes sense. Just because we have a open global economy here it doesn't mean that the galaxy in the future will have an open intergalactic economy...

hokum

If there was some ban on moving trade data then you wouldnt be allowed to take your bits of paper, or your iphone... or your head for that matter.

 

[TrashbagMcKee]

Everyone seems to think access to trade data would be an all or nothing situation. Why not make it an interesting gameplay aspect? Larger colonies / slicker organizations would likely have their logistics down to a science. These guys would have their data published far and wide and available for all. More backwater operations could vary much more day to day and maybe dont get the info pushed out - or are just so remote their information is recieved less often, or they much more irregular suppy/demand fluctuation. Thus, their remoteness makes the data harder to get access to but the potential profits are worth it to go check in person. Now their current trade data would be worth explorers going to get and sell - and would actually have value if it could actually be utilized by a trader.

As a Canadian I have to think of remote Northern communities where everything is flown in and supply / demand is a harsh mistress. Thus, something like a 500g brick of cheese goes for over 5x normal market value. Also, people who travel back and forth there from "regular" society stash their bags with specialty items they know people want but cant get access to.

It would be a shame to ignore this potential of more/less remote populations by boiling access to trade data down to an all or nothing situation.

Either way, right now the fufillment of supply/demand schedules are based on random chance. Pretty sure Canadian communities in the North don't just pray that a bushpilot stumbles upon them with a cargo hold full of goodies and satisifies their demand - there is definetly an exchange of information to get that stuff out there.

 

[Innigo]

Everyone seems to think access to trade data would be an all or nothing situation. Why not make it an interesting gameplay aspect? Larger colonies / slicker organizations would likely have their logistics down to a science. These guys would have their data published far and wide and available for all. More backwater operations could vary much more day to day and maybe dont get the info pushed out - or are just so remote their information is recieved less often, or they much more irregular suppy/demand fluctuation. Thus, their remoteness makes the data harder to get access to but the potential profits are worth it to go check in person. Now their current trade data would be worth explorers going to get and sell - and would actually have value if it could actually be utilized by a trader.

As a Canadian I have to think of remote Northern communities where everything is flown in and supply / demand is a harsh mistress. Thus, something like a 500g brick of cheese goes for over 5x normal market value. Also, people who travel back and forth there from "regular" society stash their bags with specialty items they know people want but cant get access to.

It would be a shame to ignore this potential of more/less remote populations by boiling access to trade data down to an all or nothing situation.

Either way, right now the fufillment of supply/demand schedules are based on random chance. Pretty sure Canadian communities in the North don't just pray that a bushpilot stumbles upon them with a cargo hold full of goodies and satisifies their demand - there is definetly an exchange of information to get that stuff out there.

I agree with all of this. It's kind of what I had in mind when I was thinking about data running. The systems with a lot of traffic will have their prices spread out regularly - so the info would be more up to date, but for the more backwater systems - the info on them only a few systems away might be days or old. I do wonder if this would require an actual economic simulation running in the background - something I know SC is doing and I'm 95% sure ISN'T doing.

But even retaining pricing information on systems you've been to would be a big step forward. All those missions "Bring us X and we'll pay you Y" that I totally ignore as they involve wandering around randomly hoping to chance across a supplier - which isn't how it's done in the 21st century and certainly isn't how it would be done in the 33rd.

 

[Belgarath]

I for one don't need or even want that all or nothing situation. What I definitely want is my own data neatly accessible without needing to screenshot/photograph/writing it down. So: the last commodities markets' values in my system with timestamp, sell, buy, demand, supply. That's it. A history would be nice (to see how a specific market evolved over time), but not necessary. An automatic snapshot of the market once I leave can't pose any kind of problem. Perhaps we also could by some data (the older the cheaper of course), but for me it would be enough to not have to fall back to crude solutions like mentioned above. It's just so 1984 ... ^^

 

[Jeheil]

Given we are now only a week out (woohoo) from launch and the guys must be super busy, I think we can assume trading will be as it is now for at least another 3 months.

I will be interested to see how FD 'roadmap' their improvements, they have already mentioned 'wings' in the new year.

Will they keep it out of public discourse (there are some merits to this) or open up DDR-esque discussion to capture ideas/feedback. It will be interesting.

I like anyone CAN build up knowledge of local trading models manually, in B1 I traded over 100 million as I went from sidey-hauler-6-9-anaconda. So I KNOW how to do it manually. It is however tedious, 'work' and not part of the space game/sim I value. It is akin to the sub-par navigation system. Set target system jump...re-open nav...set target system, write down mid jumps (get interdicted while retargetting next jump etc etc).

I don't want it easy, I don't want it handed to me on a plate....but danger/excitement/immersion DOESN'T come from sub-standard functionality. A car with bad-breaks isn't exciting and fun....its just broken.

 

[DAYLEET]

Am i the only one who enjoy using paper and pen to keep track of stuff? I was reminded of a time when i was motivated about playing a game more than just getting quick rewards. You should see my trade note they are a mess lol and i love it.

You guys already have lots of apps to keep track of everything no?

 

[Jeheil]

I love sitting around a table top playing DnD type games too.

But its Elite...I am in a spaceship...so no, I don't love having to transcribe numbers from one screen to another/paper....and I can't see it as a marketing tool for the game.

Travel the galaxy land at millions of spaceports, then write down 20-30 numbers for your personal filing system on your desk (or if you can stand the screen up/down/cpu burn then travel to the 90's and enter your data into a spreadsheet...he he...remember to hit save).

Elite Trading Clerk where the adventures you can have are only bound by the size of your foolscap.

 

[Belgarath]

I don't want it easy, I don't want it handed to me on a plate....but danger/excitement/immersion DOESN'T come from sub-standard functionality. A car with bad-breaks isn't exciting and fun....its just broken.

Quite to the point, thank you.

I'd settle for a copy in csv format, even if only in memory (for copy and paste)

 

[Fallout300]

O

I don't want it easy, I don't want it handed to me on a plate....but danger/excitement/immersion DOESN'T come from sub-standard functionality. A car with bad-breaks isn't exciting and fun....its just broken.

In a nutshell really...........

 

[FrogsFriend]

It could do with something like 'OneNote' incorporating into the game.

 

[DrSpin]

Never wise to make assumptions about people you don't know. I like realism in my simulations, even when it's something unreal that's being simulated. However, how markets work in market economies are not unreal. They are very real and work entirely unlike how they're being portrayed in Elite. Back in 1984 when I was 13 this was fine. First, I was a kid and didn't know any better. Second, games were much less sophisticated back then. But this isn't 1984, this is 2014 and what worked 30 years ago doesn't work today. What looked fine back then can look shallow or lazy now. Which is what we've got. A shallow, boring trading system that's functionally little different to it's Great Grandfather.

Having access to the prices in other systems in a non real time communication environment does not equal a simpler trading system. In fact, it doesn't even equal it in an environment with real time communication. It's one thing to know the price of a thing somewhere else, it's another to get that thing there whilst it's still at that price.

But we have it easy, we have non-real-time communication. The information you're basing your decision on could be minutes, hours or days old. It could be based on information taken just before a Type 9 docked with a hold full of the cargo you're contemplating. It's all very well knowing the price of a commodity, but how stable is that price. Will you get that price for 100 tonnes, or will that be enough to saturate the market and push the price right down DURING your own trade? Maybe you need to look at the historical data for X commodity to understand how much you can get away with shipping.

You know, depth.

This has NOTHING, let me repeat NOTHING to do with making trading easier. It's easy now, but it's also unreal, stupid, annoying and utterly lacking depth. It's basically the same as what it was back in 1984, but with more things to buy and sell.

And no, the lore doesn't makes sense. Economies depend on suppliers making it as easy as possible to sell to customers, and keeping the price a secret makes that harder, thus stifles the economy and ultimately that helps no one. We have an open global economy because if we didn't it would crash. It especially doesn't make sense when the prices are readily available as soon as you land on the station - so all it would take is for the Federation or Empire to have a few dozen pilots buzzing around all the key systems keeping tabs on prices (presumably with a notepad and pencil - cutting edge spy stuff here) and reporting back. Given we're talking about interstellar civilizations here this isn't exactly resource hungry espionage.

Even back during the Cold War, the USSR told people it wanted to export to how much they were willing to sell their stuff for.

If you want to keep a secret, cause that info getting out is damaging, you don't tell people. You DON'T jealously guard it until people park up and want to do some shopping. I can't even begin to image how you explain that as making sense.

I completely agree with all of this.

 

[Diamond Dog]

Great idea, Love it. Doesn't do anything you haven't done already so it's not an auto-trader Very cool

 

[Antinull]

hokum

If there was some ban on moving trade data then you wouldnt be allowed to take your bits of paper, or your iphone... or your head for that matter.

.......If you want to keep a secret, cause that info getting out is damaging, you don't tell people. You DON'T jealously guard it until people park up and want to do some shopping. I can't even begin to image how you explain that as making sense.

Agree with being able to record & review market data from systems you have traveled to from within the game. I shouldn't need to alt-tab out to Excel, but if others don't mind the jarring interruption, feel free to carry on as you are, but please don't insist everyone else should have to.

There is no `lore` that can reasonably justify the lack of such a system without straying into the absurd.

Cheers,