Make your thread easier to join and follow

Make your thread easier to find and follow

Update: although I hope this thread is useful, it was written long before the DDF got started. Reading threads more efficiently deals with the actual issues we've encountered.

When the new forums are set up, Frontier will look at posting best practices for different sections so subjects don't sway off-topic. For example, they might encourage us to use thread-tagging and thread prefixes (although they haven't made any decisions yet).

But communication is a two-way street - especially in the DDF, which might end up lobbying Frontier on complex issues. We'll need to find ways of boiling a discussion down enough that a busy Frontier developer can glance at a thread over their Monday morning coffee and immediately know whether it's relevant to them. Given the number of threads they'll have to wade through, we need to start developing some really good habits. This is a place to discuss and experiment with those habits.

Remember the forums are an advisory body. This is Frontier's day job and David's baby - we're here to provide oversight on behalf of players, not to determine requirements.

Tag threads appropriately, so people can find their specific interests. You can add up to 5 tags (preferably of two words or less) from the "Edit Tags" link above the Quick Reply box - please edit the tags for this thread to get used to it. Standard tags will most likely be suggested by Frontier or emerge naturally over the coming months.

Summarise the ongoing discussion in the OP, so people can see where the discussion is without reading all the way through. Think of the first post in a thread like the wiki page for a topic, and the later posts as the "talk" page - the chat is useful and helps drive discussion forward, but at the end of the day it's only the main page that really counts.

Offer text to go in the OP, to save the thread creator some time. Writing good text is time-consuming, and can make maintaining the first post a bit of a chore. Even if the thread creator rewrites your text to match their style, it's the best way to ensure your intent is accurately represented.

Configure your PM notifications, so you can respond quickly to people that contact you. It's easy to miss private messages that contain important feedback from people who don't want to talk publicly, and a pop-up or an e-mail can save you a lot of hassle.

And finally, always remember the Bill and Ted Rule. Be excellent to each other :)

Note: this post is regularly updated to summarise the discussion below - thanks to everyone for your wonderful contributions!
 
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Hey all,

Apologies for spamming a bunch of threads with the same request last night - using forum software to agree things is a bit of a round-peg-square-hole problem, so I wasn't sure where to start.

In the coming months - especially if you're in the DDF - you'll need to find ways of boiling discussions down enough that a busy developer at FD can read a whole weekend's worth of ideas over their Monday morning cup of coffee. I've suggested doing that by summarising the discussion in the first post, but how would you do it?

One specific question people have asked is when to start summarising - three posts? Three pages? Think of the first post in an idea thread as like the wiki page for a topic, and the later posts as its "talk" page - the chat is useful and helps drive discussion forward, but at the end of the day it's only the main page that really counts.

Don't mean to be a party pooper. But what you're asking for is really a weekly/daily Feature request thread? I'm sure frontier have got their own ideas for the game without a thouasand odd people spouting their own ones :p
 
Don't mean to be a party pooper. But what you're asking for is really a weekly/daily Feature request thread? I'm sure frontier have got their own ideas for the game without a thouasand odd people spouting their own ones :p

The daily feature request deluge is already happening, it's not like anyone will stop it. But it's very unwieldy at the moment. Andrew's suggestion seems like it might make it actually useful. You seem to be arguing for his idea rather than against it?
 
Hey Mazrocks,

I think I see what you're getting at. The problem isn't so much about finding ideas on the forum's front page past the chatter, as finding the insightful points within a thread past the debate. Reading through a few threads on here, I've often looked at the first post and thought "that'll never work because of X", then a few posts later someone asks the question, a solution emerges, and discussion moves on. I agree Frontier will have their own ideas about forum management, but only participants in a discussion can usefully summarise that discussion.

(which I will now go and do)
 
I see the problem Andrew sees: how to make sure the good ideas don't get lost in the noise. Keeping a summary in the first post is a good idea for certain threads; maybe I'll do it for threads I start and care about enough.

It will probably help that the DDF will be a smaller group of people. And DDF people will likely read the other forums and pick out the good ideas and make them prominent.

On the other hand I'm certain FD are not short of their own ideas. I expect cases of ideas coming directly from the forums and making it into the game will be rare.

I work on software for a consumer product myself, and we don't get time to read all the forum posts. What we do get from the forum is a sense of what the really big problems are that are affecting lots of people.
 
Would take a lot of micromanagement for a hot thread with hundreds of posts.

Edit: I love the idea, but there's got to be an easier way. Just can't think of it :)
 
Hey all,

Apologies for spamming a bunch of threads with the same request last night - using forum software to agree things is a bit of a round-peg-square-hole problem, so I wasn't sure where to start.


Hi Andrew
Would you mind adding a section to your initial post to summarise the ongoing discussion? Maintaining an up-to-date summary makes it easier for people to join and follow a conversation in progress.

Im sure you dont have better things to do than manage your own thread and to constantly summerise whats going on for the benifit of me because i cant be arsed to read a few post to get an idea of whats going on. so if you could just go through all the posts that have been made already i would very much like to know whats going on so i can then make a comment on what ever this thread is all about.
 
MadDogMurdock - good idea, added.

Fangrim - I see your point. Ideally we'd have group editing or something for the first post, going back to the wiki analogy. I'm actually finding the most time-consuming part to be organising the text and deciding on the wording. How would you feel about writing copy/pastable suggestions for text? I'd probably rewrite it a bit for style, but it would definitely help!

Mobius - yeah ok, I deserved that.
 
N:)othing personal Andy, but making a summery of a continuing thread is not as straight forward as you requested.

the problem you have made for your self is that you feel that you need to know every post where infact you should just focus on the first post and answer that one.
 
MadDogMurdock - good idea, added.

Fangrim - I see your point. Ideally we'd have group editing or something for the first post, going back to the wiki analogy. I'm actually finding the most time-consuming part to be organising the text and deciding on the wording. How would you feel about writing copy/pastable suggestions for text? I'd probably rewrite it a bit for style, but it would definitely help!

Mobius - yeah ok, I deserved that.

I love the idea, but I know from experience, that after the initial energy burst, it wil soon become a chore. I've tried this before on various forums, and in the end the idea just fizzles, as noone can be bothered to keep updating the original post.
 
What I'm expecting is that the DDF will be driven by Frontier designers, asking specific questions. It wouldn't surprise or upset me if new thread creation (outside of a General DDF Chat subsection) is restricted to Frontier designers, and that threads would get locked pretty quickly once they've got enough information. Lets face it, we're a bunch of overgrown kids who all want to shout "Listen to me I've got super awesome ideas", aren't we?
 
What I'm expecting is that the DDF will be driven by Frontier designers, asking specific questions. It wouldn't surprise or upset me if new thread creation (outside of a General DDF Chat subsection) is restricted to Frontier designers, and that threads would get locked pretty quickly once they've got enough information. Lets face it, we're a bunch of overgrown kids who all want to shout "Listen to me I've got super awesome ideas", aren't we?

No we're not, we're all mature rational adults.....................Wow! I've got a great idea........... :D
 
Good morning Andrew Sayers,

By my count there will be over 600 of us (DDF members), Would it be possible to have two separate DDF forums,

The Second forum would be mainly for DDF members to 'politely discuss' :D topics & New Ideas before they are posted to the Official DDF forum. Thread owners would have the responsibility for posting to the Official forum, linking the original discussion thread.
Once posted to the Official forum (after member discussion) could we expect an official response from Frontier ?
Devs of course would be welcome to join in this forum if they had nothing better to do ;). Of course DDF members would still have a responsibility to keep things in order as you suggested, no double posting, summarize threads, correct categories, etc.

The First forum being the Official DDF Forum that Frontier will post official requests & information to, and DDF members will post topics after 'insightful' discussion or when clarification on topics is required. It may also make frontiers job easier in keeping the Official forum in order so devs can do what devs do best.

of course both would be restricted to devs & DDF members, however it would keep the noise low in the official forum.
 
By my count there will be over 600 of us (DDF members), Would it be possible to have two separate DDF forums,
Don't expect 600+ in the DDF. I would not be surprised if less than 50% of people that can post in the DDF do and probably even less will do it regularly.
 
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the problem you have made for your self is that you feel that you need to know every post where infact you should just focus on the first post and answer that one.

Focusing on the first post won't work.

You have to read the first page or so and the last page before you post so you have a reasonable idea of what is going on.
 
Don't expect 600+ in the DDF. I would not be surprised if less than 50% of people that can post in the DDF do and probably even less will do it regularly.

I agree, but there will be 600+ members, even if there was just 1/4 of them are discussing hot topics.
In the example topic of 'Exchanging real-world currency for in-game currency', we have already seen has had 128 replies (13 pages).
Assuming there was only 1 post per active member that's only slightly less than 1/4.
Already the post is out of date with key points being repeated over and over, and gone off and on topic a few times.

I imaging it's this 'polite discussion' :D That Andrew is trying to free the devs from having to follow.

aside from that, do you think my idea has merit ?
 
aside from that, do you think my idea has merit ?

Probably not.
It will end up duplicating a lot of noise.

And it won't take long for people to decide who to listen to and if (as an unfair example) AdamMellor is just full of hot air & noise and should be ignored where as SnowGhost has clear, concise and well considered ideas all of which should be included without further discussion.

And of course, there is the third option ... wait & see what Frontier do, they probably have a fair idea of their plans anyway.
 
Of course the third option is the most important one,

I do agree that it would be duplicating posts, however I was suggesting it as a way of getting the noise to happen away from the developers eyes. Only the updated initial post would get duplicated posted to the Main forum, the discussion thread could be linked and possibly closed.

But we shall wait and see.

btw, probably not unfair, as I am recording my thoughts on elite things in my iCloud notes waiting for the DDF to open :)
 
i'm sure FD will come up with a list of do's/don'ts to keep the discussion threads small and reasonably to the point, ie..

only comment on the thread topic, do not answer another persons post, leave that to us!

try to keep your posts concise and to the point, if we like the idea and want you to expand on your explaination/ideas we will ask you to do so! etc.
 
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