Mamba buffs?

[Nidoboros]

How do you do that? What I generally see from the ones that are the loudest about buffs are suggestions that would just turn all the ships the same. The character of something is not just in its streangth, but also in its weaknesses. This is also a game where more powerfull definitely doesn't mean more fun. So unless the buffs are made with thought, attention, and care for each and every ship, I rather they don't touch them at all.

I specifically do not want ships to be the same. I want ships to be designed with a primary role in mind, and maybe a secondary role. Explorers should outshine every ship at exploring, an explorer with a secondary role of combat might not do exploring as well as a hyper-focused explorer ship, but it still should do it better than your multi-roles.

Weaknesses are also good, we can pick roles on that certain ships juwt dont do well at, or even can't do... maybe 'you cannot place modules of X role in this slot' or 'this ship's size 5 slots can only fit size 4 shields' or something (not this specifically, I know hulls math shields differently by tonnage, just the example I thought up)

 

[BackToTheMud]

I specifically do not want ships to be the same. I want ships to be designed with a primary role in mind, and maybe a secondary role. Explorers should outshine every ship at exploring, an explorer with a secondary role of combat might not do exploring as well as a hyper-focused explorer ship, but it still should do it better than your multi-roles.

Weaknesses are also good, we can pick roles on that certain ships juwt dont do well at, or even can't do... maybe 'you cannot place modules of X role in this slot' or 'this ship's size 5 slots can only fit size 4 shields' or something (not this specifically, I know hulls math shields differently by tonnage, just the example I thought up)

Ah, it's you. With the lack of understanding and knowledge you have shown in posting your suggestios, it's not surprising players are negative to them.

 

[Nidoboros]

Ah, it's you. With the lack of understanding and knowledge you have shown in posting your suggestios, it's not surprising players are negative to them.

This is why reading comprehension is important, because you keep thinking I'm making suggestions that I'm not. As for other people being negative to my suggestions, [Citation needed]

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

Out of topic (or not):
Does the reward for the top 75% of the current CG sound like a potential buff for the Mamba?
2x C3 + 2x C1 Double Shot + Hi-cap (which gives a clip twice bigger) frags sounds like it was meant for it?

BABAM! BABAM! BABAM! BABAM! BABAM! BABAM!

 

[BackToTheMud]

This is why reading comprehension is important, because you keep thinking I'm making suggestions that I'm not. As for other people being negative to my suggestions, [Citation needed]

It's also important to understand that military slots aren't free slots...

Citation (look, it's yours) supplied:

Been advocating for them, people keep whining about how it wold ruin everything with cursed change.

 

[Nidoboros]

It's also important to understand that military slots aren't free slots...

Citation (look, it's yours) supplied:

Incredible that you're still on this yet can't provide anything more specific than 'change bad'.

 

[Morbad]

Does the reward for the top 75% of the current CG sound like a potential buff for the Mamba?
2x C3 + 2x C1 Double Shot + Hi-cap (which gives a clip twice bigger) frags sounds like it was meant for it?

It's a buff for those that prefer very specific loadouts who are able to get the CG reward. The Mamba is an obvious platform for them, but any ship with multiple large and/or small hardpoints could leverage them.

 

[dsagent]

Out of topic (or not):
Does the reward for the top 75% of the current CG sound like a potential buff for the Mamba?
2x C3 + 2x C1 Double Shot + Hi-cap (which gives a clip twice bigger) frags sounds like it was meant for it?

BABAM! BABAM! BABAM! BABAM! BABAM! BABAM!

What would really help are Class 4 Frags.

 

[[VR] DDM_Reaper20]

What would really help are Class 4 Frags.

I don't think we'll ever see those. Same reason as to why there are no class 3 or (heaven forbid) class 4 railguns -- balance. Class 4 frags would be absolutely murderous. Power drain isn't all that high with frags, distributor drain is negligible, whereas damage is stunning. Imagine an FDL with a huge frag and four medium frags... Railguns, on the other hand, would be somewhat easier to balance -- heat and power drain would be a lot worse than with class 1 and 2, respectively, after all.

(A man can dream -- I have long wished we could get class 3 rails. Would be nice for the corvette (which, incidentally, REALLY could use a a facelift regarding the class 3 hardpoint... not that I ever expect to see anything like that happening, not even with a corvette mk II).

 

[Aashenfox]

Out of topic (or not):
Does the reward for the top 75% of the current CG sound like a potential buff for the Mamba?
2x C3 + 2x C1 Double Shot + Hi-cap (which gives a clip twice bigger) frags sounds like it was meant for it?

BABAM! BABAM! BABAM! BABAM! BABAM! BABAM!

I don't think these will be better than regular overcharged, but we shall see. But yes, it definitely seems like these are intended for people who bought hte Mamba prefit with ARX

 

[Aashenfox]

I don't think we'll ever see those. Same reason as to why there are no class 3 or (heaven forbid) class 4 railguns -- balance. Class 4 frags would be absolutely murderous. Power drain isn't all that high with frags, distributor drain is negligible, whereas damage is stunning. Imagine an FDL with a huge frag and four medium frags... Railguns, on the other hand, would be somewhat easier to balance -- heat and power drain would be a lot worse than with class 1 and 2, respectively, after all.

(A man can dream -- I have long wished we could get class 3 rails. Would be nice for the corvette (which, incidentally, REALLY could use a a facelift regarding the class 3 hardpoint... not that I ever expect to see anything like that happening, not even with a corvette mk II).

The truth is that FD doesn't get enough credit for the original balance design. The person that decided what was viable, what wasn't and what the values and multipliers should be, was an absolute genius. The theorycrafting mechanics of ships and modules are one of the things that have never been changed and never will need to be changed (a few minor issues aside, hey, nothing's perfect) I would like to see some more options for weapons. The fact that we have more ship types than weapon types is...odd.

 

[Aashenfox]

I specifically do not want ships to be the same. I want ships to be designed with a primary role in mind, and maybe a secondary role. Explorers should outshine every ship at exploring, an explorer with a secondary role of combat might not do exploring as well as a hyper-focused explorer ship, but it still should do it better than your multi-roles.

Weaknesses are also good, we can pick roles on that certain ships juwt dont do well at, or even can't do... maybe 'you cannot place modules of X role in this slot' or 'this ship's size 5 slots can only fit size 4 shields' or something (not this specifically, I know hulls math shields differently by tonnage, just the example I thought up)

Where are you feeling that this need is not being catered to?

There are clear combat ships, clear cargo ships, clear exploration platforms. All of them have significant weaknesses in the other role. Game theory is not new, it's a very old hobby. One of the main tenets of game theory is trinities. "Here are three things, you can have any two full, or you can have half of all three (generalist)." - Typically, this would be the classic triad of health pool, effective dps, utility. In Elite dangerous we have basically speed, jump range and cargo cap, and a ton of sub categories, convenience of hardpoint positioning, shield multiplier, hardpoint quantity and size, distributor size, etc etc, but it basically is already 'you can have two thirds of what you want'.

For what it's worth, I advocated MANY years ago, that military slots were pointless, and it should be the other way around, non combat ships should have slots that can't be used for reinforcement or shielding, and combat ships you should be able to put what you want, since it will generally be sub optimal to not use a combat module in every slot of a combat ship. This is one of ED's imperfections in the theorycrafting in my view, but to your overall point, I think the ships have clear roles, to the point where trying to use one for a different purpose, is between frustrating and highly ineffective. The Mandalay and Corsair are overpowered and power crept, but that's cos FD likes money and again, I'm ok with that.

I confess I didn't read all your posts on this thread, only the ones on this page, so please do correct me if I'm misunderstanding something or misrepresenting what you're asking for.

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

I don't think these will be better than regular overcharged, but we shall see.

This is why I've been asking for the stats to be shown before the modules are given out, like we got for the previous two CGs; double shot and hi cap both double the clip size, so if they stack together these frags would have a ridiculous 12 shots per clip...

 

[Aashenfox]

This is why I've been asking for the stats to be shown before the modules are given out, like we got for the previous two CGs; double shot and hi cap both double the clip size, so if they stack together these frags would have a ridiculous 12 shots per clip...

Hm, yes, doubling the potential output per burst is interesting, and should on paper represent a fairly significant DPS increase. In practice though, when I extensively tested double shot vs overcharge, many years ago to be fair, the main reason for sticking to overcharged was QoL concerns and practicality, not the dps or ammo usage. The more ammo there is in the mag, the higher the potential for the amounts to desync (i.e. 4 shots in one mag, 8 in another, 2 in another, caused either by one gun not firing cos gimbal is out of position, or because capacitor was low), and once you get these mismatches, you lose an absolute TON of dps.

In many of my videos where I use frags, if I only hit with 2 volleys on the pass, I throw the third one away, to get the full refill before the next pass, this is probably the number one most important piece of advice for using frags in pvp. Wasting ammo is required very much more often with double shot, doubly so with double the cap size. So yeh I agree, they could be a net dps increase on paper, but the overall inconvenience of the way frags reload is compounded by double shot and will likely not represent a significant advantage in actual practice.

I'm quite prepared to be wrong and the inconvenience does not outweigh hte increased dps. I can't wait to find out.

P.S. I think it's obvious myself, that these will have 12 in the mag (for 6 shot burst) and we will be able to apply specials to them. Anything else would be simply wrong, and not worth having.

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

Hm, yes, doubling the potential output per burst is interesting, and should on paper represent a fairly significant DPS increase. In practice though, when I extensively tested double shot vs overcharge, many years ago to be fair, the main reason for sticking to overcharged was QoL concerns and practicality, not the dps or ammo usage. The more ammo there is in the mag, the higher the potential for the amounts to desync (i.e. 4 shots in one mag, 8 in another, 2 in another, caused either by one gun not firing cos gimbal is out of position, or because capacitor was low), and once you get these mismatches, you lose an absolute TON of dps.

In many of my videos where I use frags, if I only hit with 2 volleys on the pass, I throw the third one away, to get the full refill before the next pass, this is probably the number one most important piece of advice for using frags in pvp. Wasting ammo is required very much more often with double shot, doubly so with double the cap size. So yeh I agree, they could be a net dps increase on paper, but the overall inconvenience of the way frags reload is compounded by double shot and will likely not represent a significant advantage in actual practice.

I'm quite prepared to be wrong and the inconvenience does not outweigh hte increased dps. I can't wait to find out.

P.S. I think it's obvious myself, that these will have 12 in the mag (for 6 shot burst) and we will be able to apply specials to them. Anything else would be simply wrong, and not worth having.

It is indeed hard to nail the 3x double shots in a quick pass (although I do that often), and trying to nail more than that would mean starting to fire earlier, which would be further away, thereby reducing the damage due to spread.
I am a big fan of double shot for the extra +17% BURST damage vs overcharged, however, it comes with lots of cons (ammo usage, distro draw, heat).

Now, double shot + capacity = 6x double shots, which could be devastating vs big ships.
On the other hand, one will get no more than 2x of these new C3 modules, so a Python2 with 4x regular C3's would still be more deadly.

Now if you like the Mamba and the frags, these might fit just fine...and the extra BOOST speed could even make it a nice...ganking ship...

 

[Three Stars]

It is indeed hard to nail the 3x double shots in a quick pass (although I do that often), and trying to nail more than that would mean starting to fire earlier, which would be further away, thereby reducing the damage due to spread.
I am a big fan of double shot for the extra +17% BURST damage vs overcharged, however, it comes with lots of cons (ammo usage, distro draw, heat).

Now, double shot + capacity = 6x double shots, which could be devastating vs big ships.
On the other hand, one will get no more than 2x of these new C3 modules, so a Python2 with 4x regular C3's would still be more deadly.

Now if you like the Mamba and the frags, these might fit just fine...and the extra BOOST speed could even make it a nice...ganking ship...

Have you tried High Capacity? At the very least it gives flexibility. There are situations where you don’t necessarily want two shots to come out. There are also situations where you want to control the interval between shots, which you can’t with Double Shot.

 

[Aashenfox]

It is indeed hard to nail the 3x double shots in a quick pass (although I do that often), and trying to nail more than that would mean starting to fire earlier, which would be further away, thereby reducing the damage due to spread.
I am a big fan of double shot for the extra +17% BURST damage vs overcharged, however, it comes with lots of cons (ammo usage, distro draw, heat).

Now, double shot + capacity = 6x double shots, which could be devastating vs big ships.
On the other hand, one will get no more than 2x of these new C3 modules, so a Python2 with 4x regular C3's would still be more deadly.

Now if you like the Mamba and the frags, these might fit just fine...and the extra BOOST speed could even make it a nice...ganking ship...

Frag Mamba has always been one of the best ganking ships, if not THE best. It was famously terrorising the galaxy in the hands of Harry Potter (aka Besieger), one of only a handful of players to write themselves into elite lore (not for flying a frag mamba though). And yes, if they are a dps increase over overcharged without being too annoying to use, they probably did just make the best ganking platform even better for ganking


Are you seeing a pattern here? First seekers with FSD reset, now upgrades tailor made for a frag Mamba, offering a CZ frag mamba for ARX... FD WANTS US ALL TO GANK! IT'S UNDENIABLE!

Have you tried High Capacity? At the very least it give flexibility. There are situations where you don’t necessarily want two shots to come out. There are also situations where you want to control the interval between shots, which you can’t with Double Shot.

I get your point, but anything other than overcharged in the current game is extremely sub optimal. There really isn't a situation where you would sacrifice the DPS for the extra shots, especially since synthing became a thing, or any other convenience, it's just too much up front damage to give up.

 

[Three Stars]

I get your point, but anything other than overcharged in the current game is extremely sub optimal. There really isn't a situation where you would sacrifice the DPS for the extra shots, especially since synthing became a thing.

One shot of Overcharged is 175% damage. Two shots of High Capacity is 200% damage. You can do the math for the full clip, but the point remains that there’s no actual sacrifice of DPS when looked at over time. What you gain is sustainability and flexibility.

Most of us can click pretty fast, even faster than what Double Shot can provide. High Capacity also gives you 360 shots.

Not everyone is swimming with mats, and if you’re under fire then synthing isn’t a thing.

I’m just saying it’s not so easily dismissed as an option.

 

[Aashenfox]

One shot of Overcharged is 175% damage. Two shots of High Capacity is 200% damage. You can do the math for the full clip, but the point remains that there’s no actual sacrifice of DPS when looked at over time. What you gain is sustainability and flexibility.

Most of us can click pretty fast, even faster than what Double Shot can provide. High Capacity also gives you 360 shots.

Not everyone is swimming with mats, and if you’re under fire then synthing isn’t a thing.

I’m just saying it’s not so easily dismissed as an option.

Thanks for the correction, you're right, I forgot you got 6 in the mag with hi cap as well (despite referring to it myself earlier in thread ), brain fart, my bad. Overcharged is favored for QoL reasons, as you say, mainly the time required to get the whole clip out...it's hard enough to get 3 out when you're doing 500mps and have to land all three in one second, the game has a small delay as well, so if you click faster than that, you're actually hurting yourself.

Regarding synthing, fair enough, I get you on the mats, even if I don't think they're too bad. You can always find a convenient moment to synth though. If people are running out of frags fighting one ship, or forgetting to synth between targets when low, that's not a theorycrafting issue.

Cheers, you're right it shouldn't be entirely dismissed, especially in pve. Limited pvp value though, where closing speeds are much faster. I sometimes forget to put a disclaimer on my posts that I'm always talking on behalf of the pvp side of combat, I should put it in my sig! <3

 

[[VR] DDM_Reaper20]

@ Aashenfox

Thank you for your expert opinion on gimballed frags vs. Pacifiers.

Hi-ho, hi-ho, off to the engineer I go . . . Time to outfit my Python Mk II with four gimballed frags and two railguns.