Manufactured Mat Gathering TOOOOO Easy Now

[DjVortex]

I was watching a stream yesterday by streamer who has been playing the game for a very long time, and at one point he talked about these recent changes in materials and engineering. Besides explaining how absolutely horrendous the original engineering system was (he recounted the example of another streamer back then who spent literally 10 hours gathering materials and doing engineering for exactly zero benefit, ie. the entirety of the 10 hours completely wasted for literally zero benefit, because of how the random engineering system worked back then), he told how much more he liked the engineering now with these most recent changes.

He expressed the same kind of frustration as many have in this very thread about how much of a chore material gathering was and how long it took, and how for that reason when he bought a new ship he almost never fully engineered it from scratch, but instead would perhaps engineer a couple of modules and recycle engineered modules from his other ships, which left most of his ships being half-built, which of course meant that if he wanted to switch to a particular ship, he would need to start reshuffling all the modules for it again, try to remember and find which other ship had those modules, and transfer them to that ship.

Fully engineering a new ship from scratch could easily take a week. However, now with these new changes it can usually be done in a day, which is so much nicer, so now he doesn't need to reuse and reshuffle modules between ships, as he can just engineer everything in any new ship he buys. (I don't think he directly said it, but I got the strong impression that he was completely fine with the need to gather materials to engineer the ships, and didn't necessarily want that aspect removed, but was now much happier that it wasn't such a huge grind that would require a week or even more of playing the game for something that now can be done in one sitting.)

I suppose I can't help but to agree with that. Could material gathering be better and more interesting in some ways? Certainly. However, the general consensus seems to be that increasing materials-per-hour-of-gameplay (while not necessarily removing the need completely) was definitely the right choice.

 

[Rat Catcher]

I've always wondered about the existence of HGEs, what are they good for?

They are there for every player, and are good for G5 mats, didn't you know this?

And that's the clincher. It's so easy, it's actually trivial.

So you don't bother with them, just as I do'nt bother with minimg or passenger carrying, as I am not inspired by them...

No... let's throw all that in the bin and make a single non- activity drop all the rewards.

You know what to do then...

 

[Rat Catcher]

you find yourself faced with a requirement for a bazillion different things you've NEVER seen before and have zero clue how to get.

Maybe I am the outlier (very likely) but when I first started playing this game I was visiting USS / HGE whenever they were on my way to where I was going, spent a lot of time in the SRV as it was fun, so shot everything that appeared on the scanner, and picked up everything in Res sites, buecause it had to be useful for something, surely? I had a huge stash of mats even before i 'discovered' engineering... But, naturally, youtube etc. didn't play the game for me.

Didn't have a clue how to get? Maybe you meant to say couldn't be bothered to do anything other than whatever their mind was set on at the time?

 

[Felix DiCestria]

And Jameson's Cobra is the equivalent for encoded. Do I feel compelled to go there?
No.

 

[Jmanis]

I suppose I can't help but to agree with that. Could material gathering be better and more interesting in some ways? Certainly. However, the general consensus seems to be that increasing materials-per-hour-of-gameplay (while not necessarily removing the need completely) was definitely the right choice.

Thing is... this change is just pain relief. A band aid.

If i cut your arm off, you'll be in excruciating pain. If i give you (effective) pain relief, is that going to make you feel better in that context? Make you happier than you previously were? Absolutely.

Are you still going to bleed out and die without treating the bleeding? Absolutely.

Alternately, it's one of those old-fashioned bits of advice like "Oh, can't get your baby to take a bottle? Dip the teat in whiskey!" which I'm sure makes you and your kid feel great, and is coincidentally the worst thing to do ever.

That's all this change is. It is not invalid to look at this through a very narrow lens and go "hey, more stuff, this means more dopamine!".
But that doesn't mean the change specifically for HGEs is a train wreck of game design.

Why do people like this? Because it makes HGEs vomit G5 mats.
Why were people G5 relogging? Because some streamers making guides said it was the best way.
Why were they saying it was the best way? Because assessing a single metric of "materials per hour" at the expense of all other considerations against this activities shows its the best.

There was plenty of more interesting and rewarding ways to get materials. But they weren't the best, and so they got ignored by players, and HGEs became the de-facto only way to get mats.

For anyone who thinks this is fueled by "poo poo game was made easier."...pretend HGEs didn't exist for a minute.... this update is still pure "make it easier to get mats".

I am completely down for that. The changes to missions, good, definitely needed. Could be a bit heavy- handed, but the bigger issue is that a lot of other activities like data scanning missed the boat, because this still has the usual short-sighted design that are standard attributes of FDs balanced attempts... but nonetheless, a big step in the right direction. If FD were to focus on rebalancing the other activities and maybe introducing enhanced mat rewards to some other activities, things would look good.

But the change to HGEs? Unnecessary amateur hour trash. It destroys the game's incentivisation pathways and is exemplar of the lack of any real strategy or design to what Elite as a game is actually about, and the game loops it wants to present.

 

[Jmanis]

So you don't bother with them, just as I do'nt bother with minimg or passenger carrying, as I am not inspired by them...

Which is exactly the amateurish thinking that's landed the game here. It's fine for you to say as a consumer, but inexcusable for a game developer.

You know what to do then...

It's there already, won't update since the last patch and completely uninclined to fix it. I'm hanging around to see where the Thargoids land after the last Titan goes down, and maybe jump in if a CG for Titan scrapping comes up, and hanging on to the slim hope that FD actually does something interesting and rewarding with the game's current mechanics.

 

[Riverside]

It's that lack of passion that's making it really hard for me to play, these days.

Play anyway. Play for the bits that are good.

This game has some outstanding, world class aspects to it. It's okay that it's not perfect & if those imperfect parts are at least easy so be it imo.

 

[Jmanis]

Play anyway. Play for the bits that are good.

And this is the thing. For me at least, FD have gradually stripped back, abandoned, broken or ignored almost everything i used to enjoy about the game. There's simply nothing left these days, except sprawl of trash like this which eschews quality for sales.

 

[Brrokk]

The problem, such as it is, is that GETTING STARTED on engineering is unbearably painful.

Think about it. You get a message from a mysterious engineer, you travel like 15 jumps to their base with an unengineered ship with terrible jump range, you fulfill the unlock requirement - and you find yourself faced with a requirement for a bazillion different things you've NEVER seen before and have zero clue how to get.

That's the precise point most people quit. Well, that or a few hours later after they try to get the right mats by killing passenger ships and get like 2 units.

If you actually stick around and accumulate ANY sort of stockpile, everything has always gone perfectly smoothly. You can trade for some, or worst case you just go find the one material you're missing and bam, you're good.

It's always been the start that's been the problem, and that's what this so awkwardly attempts to fix. Now you have a clear destination with clear rules. It's an objectively terrible and awkward destination, true, but at least they won't get frustrated in the same way anymore.

---

If they actually wanted to do engineering RIGHT, it would take a LOT more effort. More comprehensive guidance to get people started, more activities related to little-used materials like wakes and settlement scans, more enjoyable means of collection...the whole nine yards.

Ultimately, it's just easier to massively buff HGEs and call it a day. But it does clearly display the lack of passion they have for the project.

It's that lack of passion that's making it really hard for me to play, these days.

I always thought of the engineer introductions and unlocks as Elite's equivalent of an epic quest line... and I enjoyed doing it.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

I always thought of the engineer introductions and unlocks as Elite's equivalent of an epic quest line... and I enjoyed doing it.

For the most part yes, though this was how I discovered that mining just isn't for me...

 

[K Olley]

Maybe I am the outlier (very likely) but when I first started playing this game I was visiting USS / HGE whenever they were on my way to where I was going, spent a lot of time in the SRV as it was fun, so shot everything that appeared on the scanner, and picked up everything in Res sites, buecause it had to be useful for something, surely? I had a huge stash of mats even before i 'discovered' engineering... But, naturally, youtube etc. didn't play the game for me.

Same here, I did the same with the rankings for federation and imperial, did not discover and ignored the navy missions for a long while, then when I found out hat they were for I had accumulated enough to climb to the top with minimum effort

 

[Brrokk]

Maybe I am the outlier (very likely) but when I first started playing this game I was visiting USS / HGE whenever they were on my way to where I was going, spent a lot of time in the SRV as it was fun, so shot everything that appeared on the scanner, and picked up everything in Res sites, buecause it had to be useful for something, surely? I had a huge stash of mats even before i 'discovered' engineering... But, naturally, youtube etc. didn't play the game for me.

Didn't have a clue how to get? Maybe you meant to say couldn't be bothered to do anything other than whatever their mind was set on at the time?

I like to note that ED implements cause and effect: if you leave stuff floating in space, it doesn't appear in your inventory. Brilliant realism!

 

[the100thmonkey]

Why were people G5 relogging? Because some streamers making guides said it was the best way.

I never once watched one of your strawman streamers. I still realised it was the single quickest way to get the materials I need, even without the relog, which I learned from a friend in voice chat. I told my Elite-playing friends about what I'd learned.

Why were they saying it was the best way? Because assessing a single metric of "materials per hour" at the expense of all other considerations against this activities shows its the best.

They weren't. You made them up. It might be difficult to believe, but people talk to each other. There's no need to invoke mythical streamers to explain how behaviours propagate.

There was plenty of more interesting and rewarding ways to get materials. But they weren't the best, and so they got ignored by players, and HGEs became the de-facto only way to get mats.

For the simple reason that they were the best return on investment. Engineering has never been an end in itself. It has always been a means to an end.

For anyone who thinks this is fueled by "poo poo game was made easier."...pretend HGEs didn't exist for a minute.... this update is still pure "make it easier to get mats".

Oh no! The grind is gone! What will we do!? Let's cry about it on the forums!

The materials grind was stupid. Literally anything that made it go away is better, which is what we have.

I am completely down for that. The changes to missions, good, definitely needed. Could be a bit heavy- handed, but the bigger issue is that a lot of other activities like data scanning missed the boat, because this still has the usual short-sighted design that are standard attributes of FDs balanced attempts... but nonetheless, a big step in the right direction. If FD were to focus on rebalancing the other activities and maybe introducing enhanced mat rewards to some other activities, things would look good.

But the change to HGEs? Unnecessary amateur hour trash. It destroys the game's incentivisation pathways and is exemplar of the lack of any real strategy or design to what Elite as a game is actually about, and the game loops it wants to present.

It's great that you think you know what the "game is actually about". No. Really. It's great. Die on that hill. Please.

The facts are that:

1. You really don't have to use HGEs if you don't want to.
2. Mission rewards make not using HGEs much easier - you can get the materials you need by playing the game, rather than gaming the game, which is what everyone used to do.
3. The devs have stated that they are watching the changes in player behaviour, with a view to understanding the patch and changing it as needed.
4. If the devs decide not to change anything, there is really little reason to complain.
5. Shrill squealing doesn't help your case, such as it is.
6. "Incentivisation pathways"? Really?

Ultimately, you could have just written "the devs should have addressed the issue through changes to mission rewards and other in-game activities."

Had you done this, you would both have been right and saved yourself a lot of typing. You wouldn't have talked about "incentivisation pathways" and made yourself look like a bobble hat.

 

[Jmanis]

I never once watched one of your strawman streamers. I still realised it was the single quickest way to get the materials I need, even without the relog, which I learned from a friend in voice chat. I told my Elite-playing friends about what I'd learned.

They weren't. You made them up. It might be difficult to believe, but people talk to each other. There's no need to invoke mythical streamers to explain how behaviours propagate.

Cool story. Three of those four all cite HGEs, and many more exist like it. Do your homework buddy.

For the simple reason that they were the best return on investment.

Only if you're prioritising material gathering over your own enjoyment of the game.

Oh no! The grind is gone! What will we do!? Let's cry about it on the forums!

You're really struggling with this hey? I'm ok with this, so I don't know who you're referring to about crying that the grind is gone?

The materials grind was stupid. Literally anything that made it go away is better, which is what we have.

Yes, it was stupid. This is a good change except for how they changed HGEs.

It's great that you think you know what the "game is actually about". No. Really. It's great. Die on that hill. Please.

The facts are that:

1. You really don't have to use HGEs if you don't want to.
2. Mission rewards make not using HGEs much easier - you can get the materials you need by playing the game, rather than gaming the game, which is what everyone used to do.
3. The devs have stated that they are watching the changes in player behaviour, with a view to understanding the patch and changing it as needed.
4. If the devs decide not to change anything, there is really little reason to complain.
5. Shrill squealing doesn't help your case, such as it is.
6. "Incentivisation pathways"? Really?

Ultimately, you could have just written "the devs should have addressed the issue through changes to mission rewards and other in-game activities."

Had you done this, you would both have been right and saved yourself a lot of typing. You wouldn't have talked about "incentivisation pathways" and made yourself look like a bobble hat.

^^ Tell me you don't understand game design without saying you don't understand game design. But you've already shown your disinterest in actually learning, so I guess we're done already.

EDIT: Lol... "shrill squealing"... think you're projecting a bit too much there buddy

 

[Shadowsnog]

I think ive seen this thread before

Oh hey, here it is

 

[Rat Catcher]

I think ive seen this thread before

Many threads are, at their core, identical.

FD makes a change to the game, a handful of forum members complain that they have devalued the game, because (reasons), again... (Look at Odyssey's release: some forum members had been asking for space legs for years... when we got them, the response was "not those legs!"... Yeah...)

"It ever was, it ever will be, there is wisdom"

 

[heathenlamb]

Engineering as it currently stands ... even with the mat changes, is a laborious, PIA activity.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

Engineering as it currently stands ... even with the mat changes, is a laborious, PIA activity.

There is however, light at the end of the tunnel.
I've completed the outstanding engineering work across my Main's fleet. So apart from the new ships it's done. I'm free!

 

[Doctor Dread]

All this is the same as with people who insisted on Ironman Mode being introduced, where the simple answer was "it was in the game from the day one, it's called Clear Save".

This change in mats collecting is absolutely fantastic, removed the most boring element of grind, great move ED!

Who feels "it's to easy now" can simply fly without the Collector. Pick them up manually, or don't go into HGs but collect them exclusively from the mission, whatever, make it harder for yourself as much as you want. It is available for you in the game.

 

[Nowski]

Cool story. Three of those four all cite HGEs, and many more exist like it. Do your homework buddy.

I think your confusion is between "content creators" on youtube (shown in your screenshot) and streamers per se.

While there is some overlap, the different market dynamics tend to produce different emphases and sensibilities, which you are erroneously conflating.

Youtube guide producers compete in the market of "best technique to achieve goal" because their viewership comes from players using search to find how to achieve specific results within the game.

Your search for "easiest way to get materials" is indicative, in fact. Search-optimised words like "fastest" and the consequent focus on "optimised" play are a natural evolution of one (simplistic) take on the best gameplay. This goal-oriented mindset, which loses sight of enjoyment through exclusive focus on results, is the underlying cause of the ultimately self-defeating quest for shortcuts to "victory", IMO.

Dituri's video - in your example screenshot - is a contrarian instance of prefering the "most enjoyable".

For youtube purposes it's ok if the "optimal" solution is dull repetitive gameplay. Editing can turn 20 excruciating minutes of relogging into a fun 40 second montage with jump cuts, cool sounds, ironically amusing voice-over, etc., so that while the gameplay it depicts is ultimately boring the video itself is not viewer-repellent.

Contrariwise, most current streamers (and believe me I have watched more than enough to speak with some confidence) will eschew dull, repetitive gameplay like re-logging because, well, it's dull and repetitive.

Streamers have to show the whole process, unedited. Short of some major impro talent the audience will flee in search of actual entertainment.

Consequently, successful streamers generally have a more sophisticated take on what constitutes good gameplay in the Elite universe, with the emphasis on game loops that are fun as well as rewarding.