Mercs of Mikunn - 3 Year report: The Once Secret BGS mechanics and how to figure out exploits

And who does that?

That is the point. Seriously. That is the point. Aside from stupidly overengineered shield-tank ships, 12 elite Annies is simply not the goal for a bounty-hunting session. Spawn rates dictate how often it happens, at the very least, and it's not a common occurrence.

But it's not. If I have a 500t-capable ship, it's just as easy as a 5t-capable ship. It's just not more work. Whether or not it should be is perhaps the point of this thread, even though that's not exactly clear.

Sorry, that's just not true. As a case in point, I challenge you to determine exactly how much work each mission in the game should require a priori.

This is the basic problem with the charlatan's initial premise, and with yours too: How does one quantify "work", and how does one prevent players from working out how "work" is defined and then min-maxing it?

Your post is basically petitio principii. It's also the same problem that affects the charlatan's posts.

I don't expect that either of you will be able to provide even a minimally adequate answer. This is not an insult; it's just an observation derived from the available facts.

Obviously the example of the 12 Elite Anacondas was a very specific example, the odds of such a string of enemies appearing is pretty much remote. However, the point is that taking down a single weak ship and returning back to cash in is far less work than fighting through dozens of enemy ships.

If you have a 500 tonne capable ship, then the same work is still done, it just takes less effort. The whole point of industrialisation, economies of scale, automation and mechanisation is to achieve maximum work done for minimum human effort. The work achieved is what matters, not the effort expended to achieve said work.

I see work as being what is actually done, not the effort expended to achieve it. Moving 2000 tonnes of cargo an evening means that the work of "moving 2000 tonnes of cargo" has been done, regardless of the number of trips it takes. To achieve this maximum work for minimal effort should be accessible using non-transparent and intuitive mechanics, rather than hiding this maximum reward behind counterintuitive yet extremely exploitable mechanics. Players should be rewarded for actually playing the game and performing the work-related activities, not for artificially gaming a system by returning to dock after every kill or using a macro to sell cargo a few tonnes at a time while they go off to make themselves a cup of tea.
 
Obviously the example of the 12 Elite Anacondas was a very specific example, the odds of such a string of enemies appearing is pretty much remote. However, the point is that taking down a single weak ship and returning back to cash in is far less work than fighting through dozens of enemy ships.

Almost looks like 12 assasination missions somehow :)
 
The extra work isn't in the transportation (well you might have to make one more jump...), or even the loading of the cargo...it's the sale/offloading where the difference in 'work' is. So, 500 tons, has an extra 495 clicks...in the idea of work...not that much...in the terms of drudgery, kind of damaging.
...
495 clicks? You just hold the button down for a few seconds and the 500 tonnes is sold. However, if you're thinking about the one tonne trading bug that counted each one tonne sale as a transaction, then that was patched out a long, long time ago; as mentioned repeatedly in the thread so far.

For anyone interested in how trade really effects influence I'd recommend this excellent research.... with graphs and everything :)
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/357715-BGS-Trading-for-Influence
 
Obviously the example of the 12 Elite Anacondas was a very specific example, the odds of such a string of enemies appearing is pretty much remote. However, the point is that taking down a single weak ship and returning back to cash in is far less work than fighting through dozens of enemy ships.

If you have a 500 tonne capable ship, then the same work is still done, it just takes less effort. The whole point of industrialisation, economies of scale, automation and mechanisation is to achieve maximum work done for minimum human effort. The work achieved is what matters, not the effort expended to achieve said work.

I see work as being what is actually done, not the effort expended to achieve it. Moving 2000 tonnes of cargo an evening means that the work of "moving 2000 tonnes of cargo" has been done, regardless of the number of trips it takes. To achieve this maximum work for minimal effort should be accessible using non-transparent and intuitive mechanics, rather than hiding this maximum reward behind counterintuitive yet extremely exploitable mechanics. Players should be rewarded for actually playing the game and performing the work-related activities, not for artificially gaming a system by returning to dock after every kill or using a macro to sell cargo a few tonnes at a time while they go off to make themselves a cup of tea.


Using credit value as the measure has the exact same problem for bounties. My engied Vette can sit in a res with 1T of gold in its hold and survive all night without any human intervention. This is in fact worse that the current system because i just have to intervene once a day to crush the universe beneath my jeweled sandals. Credit value does not do away with the potential to game the system in any way - it just changes the nature of the gaming.

Lets also look at it from a top down BGS view rather than a cmdr bottom up view (which is the view taken by those most upset by the transactional nature). The BGS has to handle calculations and compare different activities. There will have to be some common currency between the different activities (including those with no credit value). A credit value for BH would have to be assigned to that currency. lets call it 1 "work" (or maybe 1 "transaction" :)). Well what is 1 "work"? For arguments sake lets call it the credit value of the average BH cashing. I have no idea what that is but I suspect it to be relatively low given that you have to take into account those small incidental bounties earned, those earned from missions and those from BH sessions (we are after all looking at overall gameplay of all cmdrs not just one hypothetical game play style).

So we have essentially recreated the current position with a credit base instead of a transaction one. That's a lot of effort for minimal BGS change. What happens if we start screwing around with the BH value of "1 work"? Average session = "2 works".... doubles the effect of BH, destroying any semblance of balance and you begin to risk massively distorting the entire galaxy, not just where one lad is min maxing transactions! This is surely not an intended consequence of the credit proposal?

Its not even clear if the BGS server can handle credit conversations or any additional calculation overhead.

Have I also mentioned how silly this entire argument is in the context of daily system influence change caps?
 
Obviously the example of the 12 Elite Anacondas was a very specific example, the odds of such a string of enemies appearing is pretty much remote. However, the point is that taking down a single weak ship and returning back to cash in is far less work than fighting through dozens of enemy ships.
You're ignoring that doing that is crushingly boring. I know a lot of BGS-focussed players, and not one of them does that. I have over 600mcr cash and over 1bcr in ships on my main (I have no need for money) and I'd rather stick bamboo splinters in my eyes than trudge back-and-forth to a station cashing individual bounties. It's not good value per transaction.

If you have a 500 tonne capable ship, then the same work is still done, it just takes less effort. The whole point of industrialisation, economies of scale, automation and mechanisation is to achieve maximum work done for minimum human effort. The work achieved is what matters, not the effort expended to achieve said work.

I see work as being what is actually done, not the effort expended to achieve it. Moving 2000 tonnes of cargo an evening means that the work of "moving 2000 tonnes of cargo" has been done, regardless of the number of trips it takes. To achieve this maximum work for minimal effort should be accessible using non-transparent and intuitive mechanics, rather than hiding this maximum reward behind counterintuitive yet extremely exploitable mechanics. Players should be rewarded for actually playing the game and performing the work-related activities, not for artificially gaming a system by returning to dock after every kill or using a macro to sell cargo a few tonnes at a time while they go off to make themselves a cup of tea.
Sure, but the point is that your definition of work requires a fully quantified economy where every individual action has a specific value attached. If I go bounty hunting in my Sidey, I go out to do a far more challenging activity than if I do it in my FdL. As a case in point, I went to a local HazRES last night to get a faction out of trouble - it had been overtaken during the week when I was unable to play, and was in a conflict in another system so only combat activities would have any effect. I wanted to hand in the bounties in another system. I made 500kcr in less than five minutes. The value of the targets was disproportional to the work involved. It was still only one transaction, so I had to go back and do more. My pixel victims weren't even Anacondas - the biggest was a Dropship. In three sorties, I made about 1.5mcr.

So yeah, unless you want to standardise RES payouts, you're not actually going to change anything positively - I could have stayed in the RES and made even more, but decided to go to bed. As Schlack notes above, it would actually be trivial to use an engineered shield tank ship to utterly break a value-based system. With a transaction-based system, the arbiter of value is the player - I can decide how much value I attach to my transactions. I can decide if the reward for a mission is worth the effort. The actual unit of currency in the game is enjoyment.

Didn't know I read so bad.
Well, you've failed to appreciate anyone's position but your own in 30-odd pages of thread, so yeah. I'll leave it at that.

And how about moving CGs to transaction base, in the name of Sidewinder's disparity? I am afraid that this won't happen unless Fdev would want everyone to think that they are .

So how this is acceptable here? The fact that yield of your effort is not affected by your skill and/or progression is not disturbing?
Community goals aren't about moving the BGS though - their value lies in focussing player activity on a single system or set of systems and the resulting increase in interactions between players. These are the same CGs where a new player can deliver 1t of cargo in solo and be rewarded with enough cash to upgrade their free starter ship to a Cobra on conclusion of the goal, yes?
 
Yes, that's kind of what i'm saying. As long as any changes ensure all ships maintain usability in terms of the BGS.

Why should that be a design goal?

I mean sidewinder lives matter (except they don't - 0 rebuy on starter sideys), but people in sidewinders should be focused on learning how to play the game.

It should be perfectly fine for the BGS manipulation to be an 'end-game' activity, because what else is there other than participation in powerplay (bleh), grinding for elite status (ugh) or prostituting yourself for 'moar credits' via passenger missions (that rich get richer thing) or the exploit du jour?

Adopting a faction is essentially a vanity exercise anyway, it's the Elite:Dangerous equivalent of fantasy football - you can say they are 'your guys' all you want but you'll never play on the same team as them. And vanity projects are perfect for end-game activities (since FDev have apparently given up all hope of introducing a proper credit sink end-game activity because of constant whining)
 
What is the definition of a transaction exactly?

If I hand in bounties, would be "redeem all" only one transaction and I should click every faction I collected bounties for seperately instead?
 
What is the definition of a transaction exactly?

If I hand in bounties, would be "redeem all" only one transaction and I should click every faction I collected bounties for seperately instead?

That's an interesting point - rather than "rolling them all up".
However. As they're for different factions, I would GUESS that they already count for each faction as "one click" - worth seeing when you do it what it puts in your journal - does it log the single click as one line for each faction, or just a single line?
 
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