Message to the Devs: Innovate or die

Let's imagine they cut the grind in the game seriously. What logic will make you stay online longer? Well, after the "I bought a shiny new toy and played with it enough" phase.

A good narrative? Interesting gameplay mechanics? A players rival? A huge but empty (like a real one) galaxy?

There is a reason why a lot of time-consuming donation dumps, with logic: spend X time to buy/"research"/unlock Y, are widely presented and quite popular.

I will not argue that this game needs a changes, quite the contrary. But here is your "less grind!" It has an extremely indirect relation to these necessary changes.
Literally for the same reason I still play Dark Souls, Bloodborne and Elden Ring after beating them a load of times, getting the most overpowered gear and build imaginabile and 3 shotting Malenia, the Blade of Miquella with a summoned player last Saturday... Because it's fun. If I have fun, I will continue playing even if I get endgame content quicker. Nothing stops me from taking out a Sidewinder and do missions or try to railgun Anacondas with an Eagle.

The "Oh but you'll get everything quick and quit" is an extremely stupid mentally, and says more about the lack of meaningful content that the players. I get that the fanbase loves the boomer mentality of "I suffered you have to suffer to" (which isn't surprising, this game is played by alot of boomers after all) but that argument of "you'll have nothing to do if you don't grind" is pretty weak when it's supposed to be a sandbox 'do whatever you want' type of game. Hell, people have decades old Minecraft worlds (I have one with my friends that we've been consistently playing since bedrock released on windows) and there's probably less to do in Minecraft than in Elite aside from building momuments to our own hubris and ego
 
The "Oh but you'll get everything quick and quit" is an extremely stupid mentally, and says more about the lack of meaningful content that the players.
A thousand times this. I've put an embarrassingly large number of hours into games, and the loot treadmill has never been the motivator. If anything, drawn-out progression has actively reduced my engagement because it reduces the population I can meaningfully play with. I still play games that are literally decades old - and the one thing in common with all of those games is they either don't have progression, or I've long-since reached the end of progression.

Maybe its a generational thing... I often see comments about accomplishment, work and achievement within the context of playing a game; especially as it relates to tasks that require large amounts of time but minimal amounts of skill. Lauding that kind of activity as integral or desirable in a game is, i think, a massive category error. That isn't to say a time intensive, "low" skill activity might not be entertaining...
 
A thousand times this. I've put an embarrassingly large number of hours into games, and the loot treadmill has never been the motivator. If anything, drawn-out progression has actively reduced my engagement because it reduces the population I can meaningfully play with. I still play games that are literally decades old - and the one thing in common with all of those games is they either don't have progression, or I've long-since reached the end of progression.

Maybe its a generational thing... I often see comments about accomplishment, work and achievement within the context of playing a game; especially as it relates to tasks that require large amounts of time but minimal amounts of skill. Lauding that kind of activity as integral or desirable in a game is, i think, a massive category error. That isn't to say a time intensive, "low" skill activity might not be entertaining...

Like I said, Elite is largely played by boomers (and gen Xers, which are pretty much the diet coke version of boomers), and those people take pride in "working hard and pulling up your bootstraps". Many peeps here grew up with the old elite, they've been conditioned to think "reward bad unless it takes 3 lifetimes" by design of their generation, family culture, atrocious workplace conditions and pretty much cultural ethos. Even when we are all engaging in the lowest form of escapism aside form being glued to TikTok.

I've been playing on and off since 2018, I probably have 2000 hours in elite between console and PC (I have 500 hours in Steam but I mostly used the standalone launcher) I don't even have a Conda, nor Guardian modules, and pretty much my only engineered stuff is my FSD. Why? Because I can't put up with the ing grind. Sure, I don't need a Conda, nor a Corvette nor anything like that, would it be cool to have one after 2000 hours (probably spent 1k exploring but I digress) sure, would I stop playing if I got the most expensive ships and fully engineered every single module in the first month of play? Absolutely ing not, hell I'm still playing and I just have a Krait, an ASPX, a T9 and a DBX. And I have fun.

Just as I still play Dark Souls 1 after learning every trick, every moveset, every weapon combo and every cheese tactic for bosses. Because it's fun.

That's why I still play Metal Gear V after 100% it a month after release date, because it's fun. Or why I still play Halo after 2 decades, literally 20 years and I still have loads of fun in a game that boild down to point and click to kill the alien.I still will fire up Combat Evolved for the quintillion time and beating it on Legendary, 12 years after I did it for the first time, a finite game, with a real start and finish, is still played 20 years later...

In the words of the great Reggie Fils-Aime "The Game... Is Fun, the game is a battle, if iit is not fun why bother?" and this is what FDev doesn't really understand (And I'm saying it as someone who loves the frigging game) Where's the fun in doing three titloads of menial tasks like if it was a desk job? I already have one, why do I want another?
 
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Many peeps here grew up with the old elite
There's probably not a direct connection, though.

In the original Elite, you could fully-equip your Cobra - at least with all the equipment you were going to find useful - for about 15,000 credits, and a max-profit trade run could gain you 1,000 credits. So if you knew what you were doing (especially: how to dock!), and noting that your first couple of trade runs weren't going to be max-profit, you could be in a fully-equipped ship in 20 runs, which would take about 2 hours if you did them in safe systems. Consumables did cost a lot more than in Elite Dangerous there, but it still was very straightforward to make enough to cover them in normal play.

In FE2/FFE grinding out a semi-optimal but completely safe trade route could get you into the Panther Clipper with enough money to fit it out however you wanted in 4 hours. (Hellishly un-fun, do not recommend it, once you've upgraded to an Adder the money will roll in fast enough anyway doing less optimal stuff)

No-one did at the time, not the first time anyway, because without the internet to share and refine strategies, you generally had to go through the "learn what works" part of the process yourself, and that would take days or weeks. But equally, people played these games for years and definitely knew what they were doing by then. The majority of the time was spent flying the ships, not building them.

Even leaving out that in Elite Dangerous you can own multiple ships, I think there are very few ship builds where even someone speed-running it could start with a new account and have a single ship built and engineered in four hours. Building up a full "one of everything" fleet + suit collection would take hundreds of hours even done at maximum speed. And on the one hand, that's good for people who like building up stuff and/or have trouble setting their own goals or playing without one, but on the other hand it's a lot of work in the cases where the activity you do to earn a ship/suit/module isn't the same as the activity you use it for, and you only find one of those fun.

...and I think that's actually where the issue arises. In the first three games, every activity gave you credits (at greater or lesser rates, sure) and every upgrade was purchasable with credits, so you did what you found fun and gradually got an income stream from it to spend on stuff, usually in a way that got at least somewhat more efficient as you went along. With Elite Dangerous, any individual activity gives you credits and a defined subset of engineering materials, which are not necessarily the engineering materials needed to progress further in that activity. That's fine if you like all (or at least most) of the activities and considerably less good if not.

Odyssey did improve on this somewhat: almost all useful materials are available as mission rewards ... though not from exobiology or combat zones ... but also inter-player trading can let people swap materials about. Bringing that in for the ship engineering materials as well would probably be a big boost.




As far as the generational stereotyping goes, I see plenty of people my age and older complaining about the grind because "we have jobs and families now, not like these teenagers and students who can afford to play for hours a day". There certainly are plenty of opinions with a strong age correlation, but "do you prefer a game where the majority of time is in the building-up phase or in the using-the-things-you've-built phase" doesn't seem to be one of them.
 
Op says innovate or die.
That's true.
Odyssey was supposed to be innovative.
It isn't.
There are no alternatives.
It is what it is.
Those who accept that progress.
The wall, not a curve, is fiercely harsh on noobs. I don't envy them.
But you have to put alot of effort into it to get the rewards it's that simple.
Time that's allocated to either us older or younger folks is pertinant. I like most my peers work long hours. I find the time I just do.
Putting time and in VRs case, money, into it is out of some innate passion we all have. Whether it's elites combat or powerplay or whatever, something keeps me enthralled.
Perhaps that's in itself innovative? Dunno that's beyond my pay grade.
 
Content, Content, Content, more ships, more non combat rolls and ships, make it interesting instead of 70-80% of the game based on pew pew, engineering, harvesting mats or trading for creds when even that becomes boring after a while and no longer rewarding engagement as a game.
Bring more ships out, especially none combat ships, bring more content out, you have a whole galaxy to do it, pick a planet, develop and put things in them. We need content otherwise this game will die its death. 5-8k players a month on steam and this game is open to everybody on the planet who wants to play it. Says something doesnt it. Make it interesting, not grinding and boring otherwise abandon it because it feels like you have already. New skins to buy are not improvements to the game are they, they are just cash cows bleeding players dry.
Make it interesting or Give up.
 
The two messages are not mutually exclusive, and FD is hearing neither one judging by the next patch forcing what many players have been avoiding.
I don't think their forcing so much as moving forward, with or without those who want to stay on v3.8...they're giving a choice, its not a great choice IMO but it is still a choice...
 
I'm not a designer. But if l had a crack at it I'd start with elites loose ends.
Pvp combat is pointless. (Apart from pvper groups pew pewing one another)
Ganking shouldn't exist in its current format.
Multicrew should be Working 100% as should instancing. Neither do.
Law n order reworked so on so forth.
And of course I'd spend the money on developing VR.
Piracy needs a pass for sure as does smuggling. Make em harder. Give em tools.
Hauling should have the option to cloak.
30 secs of "gtfo" time.
Pvp should be optional sure.
Perhaps a pvp off button in open only.?
Exploration needs huge influx of content. Dead out there!!
Bio too.
Apart from that I'm good.
Dunno if any of its innovative though. That's for clever folks to go figure
 
I don't think their forcing so much as moving forward, with or without those who want to stay on v3.8...they're giving a choice, its not a great choice IMO but it is still a choice...
Moving forward...that's some corporate nonsense right there. Players are being forced to accept a downgrade. What's the choice though? Surely you don't mean purchasing the console version?
 
Moving forward...that's some corporate nonsense right there. Players are being forced to accept a downgrade. What's the choice though? Surely you don't mean purchasing the console version?
Staying with v3.8 on PC or console.

I did say its wasn't a great choice, which has it's own set of negatives. I'm not advocating that FDev left the best choice(s) for anyone other than Ody lovers who can run it*, only that it is there. Its, IMO, between a rock and a hard place for many here...



* - Yes, I'm an Ody lover who can run it...not perfectly, but good enough for my enjoyment...more frames would def be better...
 
Yeah… I’m not to happy about being forced to move to the new code base.
You aren't - 3.8 is yours if you don't wish to play on 4.0.

Of course, if you want to join in with the new narrative that is mentioned to come, that is a different story.
 
I love Elite but I don't aspire to play it anymore. For example, of several: I decided that I was going to equip a ship to fight the Thargoids, set up the configuration on Coriolis.io and calculated how long it would take to get the ship to my liking: ABOUT 50 HOURS JUST TO GET THE SHIP READY! I closed the game and went to play something else because I have a parallel life besides Elite. This kind of thing is killing the Game since the micromaterials were implemented, please stop it and SAVE THE ELITE! (Google Translator)
 
Many peeps here grew up with the old elite
That is true in my squadron. We are several that had our first experience with Elite back in the 80's. To me grinding is part of the game. But the data grinding in Odyssey could need a little attention from Devs, like "Settlement Defence Plans". Besides that, I planned a suit and weapon build. But along the way I got tired of grinding, so I put it all on hold. Now I'm out exploring, scanning and flying alone. No rush, no stress, just find new systems, planets and plants. I have 30-something ships, a carrier etc. I have several Cutters, Corvettes and Anacondas, and I still don't feel like I have it all. To me, the ships are just tools needed to do the next big thing. What that is? It tend to change from day to day :)
 
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