Mind numbingly boring hauling

[galahad2069]

Players will help

They are going to be less and less likely to help as the Bubble grows.

Why does everything need to be done by players anyway? It's high time those lazy NPCs started to work for their money. You could hire a crew, build a T9 or two for them and say 'OK guys, your job is to unload the carrier, you have 8 hours to get it done, see you tomorrow morning'.

 

[J Michaelson]

It takes a friend and I two dedicated days to finish a coriolis. We're working on our third. I would be more than happy to let it take 3-4 days and a 25% cost premium to let NPCs do the buying and hauling for us while we earn the money to pay them by doing more entertaining activities. I hope this is something Frontier would consider allowing players to do after manually completing one.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

Still, it's nothing compared to what haulers could earn elsewhere. Even if I gave away the commodities for free from my carrier, it still wouldn't be enough to incentivise other players to haul for me.

For context: On a recent carrier buy order I put in I had to set a profit/ton of around 25-30k to incentivise a single person to haul for me. The maximum people would make hauling to the colony ship is ~5k/ton ...

You're assuming that profit margin is the principal (only?) motivation for haulers.
A lot of us have more credits than we know what to do with and at this point the number of wannabe colonists makes it the hauler's market.
You'd want something more interesting than credits to stand out in the crowd, be that a particular project, location, services or whatever.
Op Ida is obviously upto our eyeballs probably till April 3rd.

 

[Vlad plus]

Or just ask them nicely.

This might work if you are a streamer or in a good squadron. What the motivation for those who like to transport cargo from A to B and build yours colony, and not their own, is unclear to me, + considering that credits have long been devalued

 

[_Flin_]

While i do not agree on everything you said (like lowering the material requirements), additional game loops would be very much appreciated.

e.g.

• having a gatekeep to only be able to colonize to fully explored systems
• have additional possibilities that lower construction cost, e.g. providing exploration data to science facilities, or bounty hunting for security stations, or combat bonds for military stations. Or mined materials for refinery hubs. Or even some Odyssey stuff.

These should be not be mandatory, but a possibility to get colonization done with other game loops.

 

[Peter Mannion]

You're assuming that profit margin is the principal (only?) motivation for haulers.
A lot of us have more credits than we know what to do with and at this point the number of wannabe colonists makes it the hauler's market.
You'd want something more interesting than credits to stand out in the crowd, be that a particular project, location, services or whatever.
Op Ida is obviously upto our eyeballs probably till April 3rd.

It is the biggest motivation. e.g If you set a 100k profit/ton your order will get completed in hours. I had a carrier order sat for days until I raised the price to a competitive level - it would not have been fulfilled if I asked for the stuff for free with an accompanying sob story - let's be realistic.

Again, I'm not supporting and do not agree with this idea that charity and "community spirit" are concrete ways for players to consistently haul for you. Its as useful as crossing your fingers and hoping the station magically builds itself.

The number of haulers that are happy to haul for free is so small compared to the numbers of players that would like help I would consider it negligible.

You're seriously underestimating the numbers of colonies if you assume that this is realistic.

It is a bit frustrating now that all the responses in this post to Fdev half baking colonisation are just "pray it sorts itself out"

 

[Peter Mannion]

While i do not agree on everything you said (like lowering the material requirements), additional game loops would be very much appreciated.

e.g.

• having a gatekeep to only be able to colonize to fully explored systems
• have additional possibilities that lower construction cost, e.g. providing exploration data to science facilities, or bounty hunting for security stations, or combat bonds for military stations. Or mined materials for refinery hubs. Or even some Odyssey stuff.

These should be not be mandatory, but a possibility to get colonization done with other game loops.

I think this feels a bit too "gamey". I know some of the realism nerds will question why does providing combat bonds reduce material requirements as it doesn't have a direct correlation.

 

[Jmanis]

This might work if you are a streamer or in a good squadron. What the motivation for those who like to transport cargo from A to B and build yours colony, and not their own, is unclear to me, + considering that credits have long been devalued

Then don't offer credits. Offer something of value to them. To start with, what do you value?

Before FD ruined it... people apparently had no idea how to find CMMs or Insulating Membranes. Apparently it was taking some hours to days to find what i could find in five minutes.

Would you take an offer to haul goods from my FC to my construction site for an hour, in exchange for not spending 8 hours sourcing CMMs and Insulating Membranes, because on completion I'd make multiple orbis worth of insulating membranes available to you where you like (Again, FD cooked that one now, so of course it's not workable anymore).

Some people don't have FCs, but want to build colonies still. Would you haul for my build, in exchange for me running a haul of goods in my FC to your build site?

Some people can't work out the system architect rules. Would you let me be the system architect and haul for my builds, in exchange for me setting things down according to your vision, tempered with the architects know- how?

And, some people do still want credits. Would you haul for me if i offered the goods cheap so you could turn near pure profit reach load? Would you haul 5000t of a good to my FC in the bubble, if i offered you access via friends/ dock for a 30,000cr/t markup on steel?

Of course, people might say "you can't force these things though! They could take them anywhere!"... trust is a commodity too, as much as time is. According to many, griefers are "the minority" in this game... so surely that means not many will betray your trust... but some still will. What's the value of 1 good contact in 10 bad ones, if they help you on the next 20 builds?


A lot of people here seem to value their time very highly... and some will value their time less.

E.g some people seem to insist that an outpost is an exorbinant time expense in the order of a week or more of their real life effort. Others think it's a casual 4 hours in one night Sounds like a customer and provider right there.

If you believe that, then there's a market to be had.

I had multiple people offer to help me with a build recently, simply by asking and identifying the value in the build.

Edit: question for anyone here too... how much would you be willing to pay if, say, I offered to build a coriolis in your system?

 

[Jmanis]

Why does everything need to be done by players anyway? It's high time those lazy NPCs started to work for their money. You could hire a crew, build a T9 or two for them and say 'OK guys, your job is to unload the carrier, you have 8 hours to get it done, see you tomorrow morning'.

Why does every activity need to become assessed in terms of credits per hour? (in a broken economy no less)

 

[Peter Mannion]

Why does every activity need to become assessed in terms of credits per hour?

It's because the game has a currency and an economy. All games with currencies/economies (even material economies) boil down to the most efficient path.

 

[Peter Mannion]

Some people don't have FCs, but want to build colonies still. Would you haul for my build, in exchange for me running a haul of goods in my FC to your build site?

This deal is so much worse for them then just hauling straight to their colony. They need to haul for yours + haul from your carrier for theirs. Terrible scam lol.

Some people can't work out the system architect rules. Would you let me be the system architect and haul for my builds, in exchange for me setting things down according to your vision, tempered with the architects know- how?

Again sounds a bit scammy as the rules for system architect are not exactly rocket science. It is easier for them to just lookup videos/tutorials then to take this offer.

And, some people do still want credits. Would you haul for me if i offered the goods cheap so you could turn near pure profit reach load? Would you haul 5000t of a good to my FC in the bubble, if i offered you access via friends/ dock for a 30,000cr/t markup on steel?

As established, this only works from source station to carrier and not from carrier to colony ship (which is where the main discussion is about)

None of these suggestions get us any closer to convincing players to haul for us.

What should we do next? Prayer?

Please can we not dilute this post with unrealistic solutions.

 

[Vlad plus]

@Jmanis , you are essentially offering an exchange: to transport cargo for transporting only other cargo. For example, I have no problems with goods for construction (since my system, which is in the signature, is ~ 100 l.y. from Sol and everything is within a radius of 1-2 jumps). We are talking about the fact that for some cmdrs the process itself is quite monotonous and boring, and there is no alternative to cargo transportation. Now from the "valuable" that might be of interest for exchange only Titan Drive Component, but its sale was recently disabled

 

[galahad2069]

Why does every activity need to become assessed in terms of credits per hour? (in a broken economy no less)

I certainly wasn't the one who assessed it in terms of credits per hour.
My assessment was more like in terms of brain cells lost per hour to boring A to B hauling.

 

[Robert Maynard]

None of these suggestions get us any closer to convincing players to haul for us.

Why should any player haul for someone else when they could otherwise be completing their own colonisation objective(s)?

That said, I've had help from a number of CMDRs in the completion of two outposts so far and have contributed to two others. It can happen but it's likely to be driven by contacts rather than chance - and a desire to help out a fellow CMDR.

 

[Jmanis]

This deal is so much worse for them then just hauling straight to their colony. They need to haul for yours + haul from your carrier for theirs. Terrible scam lol.

Really? You'd haul for 12 hours to build your own station, instead of hauling for 6 to build mine + yours?

Again sounds a bit scammy as the rules for system architect are not exactly rocket science. It is easier for them to just lookup videos/tutorials then to take this offer.\

It's a scam to offer expertise now is it?

As established, this only works from source station to carrier and not from carrier to colony ship (which is where the main discussion is about)

So what do you value?

None of these suggestions get us any closer to convincing players to haul for us.

What should we do next? Prayer?

Please can we not dilute this post with unrealistic solutions.

All i can see here is ignorance to actual solutions. Does disagreeing with my ideas get your station built?

 

[Jmanis]

@Jmanis , you are essentially offering an exchange: to transport cargo for transporting only other cargo.

No, it's exchange of time for perceived time. If it took you 8 hours to get enough insulating membranes (max needed =~ 1400t) like some claimed before FD uppercut themselves... when you could've used just 2 hours of that to haul 20,000t of everything else from FC to build site, and add another 2 hours to do the same for my site... seems like a fair trade to me?

For example, I have no problems with goods for construction (since my system, which is in the signature, is ~ 100 l.y. from Sol and everything is within a radius of 1-2 jumps). We are talking about the fact that for some cmdrs the process itself is quite monotonous and boring, and there is no alternative to cargo transportation.

So how much would you pay someone who was taking credits?

 

[Vlad plus]

No, it's exchange of time for perceived time. If it took you 8 hours to get enough insulating membranes (max needed =~ 1400t) like some claimed before FD uppercut themselves... when you could've used just 2 hours of that to haul 20,000t of everything else from FC to build site, and add another 2 hours to do the same for my site... seems like a fair trade to me?

So how much would you pay someone who was taking credits?

Tell me, why should I unload them from FC if I have stations for this in one jump? For Coriolis +\- 5 billion. But we can't transfer credits directly. I could buy Titan Drive Components in advance and pay with them, but the buyback is disabled now.

 

[Jmanis]

Tell me, why should I unload them from FC if I have stations for this in one jump?

Different people value different things. But unloading from an FC directly next to site is dramatically quicker, especially with an SCO. I'd say you double your haul time just by jumping back and forth between systems in a ship, especially if the thing you're building or the station you're sourcing from is more than a thousand Ls away.

EDIT: Yes, that's despite the fact you'd need to load and unload the FC.

For Coriolis +\- 5 billion. But we can't transfer credits directly. I could buy Titan Drive Component in advance and pay with them, but the buyback is disabled now.

Plenty of other things worth a couple hundred thousand (which resale for ~20m ea at the 10,000% markup) to do exchanges with.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Not every type of gameplay is for everybody. You could just as well say "fishing is mind numbingly boring", and for many people that would be quite true. However, other people like it, and do it regularly. Some people will sit there with a fishing rod for hours even if they don't catch a single fish, and be content. Most people who go fishing don't even care if they catch any fish or not. Sure, it's a nice bonus if they do, but that's not the main reason to go there.

I used to fish. Found out it was a former radioactive waste site...

 

[GarlicFresh]

Still, it's nothing compared to what haulers could earn elsewhere. Even if I gave away the commodities for free from my carrier, it still wouldn't be enough to incentivise other players to haul for me.

For context: On a recent carrier buy order I put in I had to set a profit/ton of around 25-30k to incentivise a single person to haul for me. The maximum people would make hauling to the colony ship is ~5k/ton ...

I placed orders for goods for 16k demand with a total value from a billion to two billions (almost pure profit). At the same time, in order for them to bring me at least something, I had to 1) Place a carrier right above the factory producing the things I needed (no slots, constantly), 2) Throw (many times) a call in several channels, both on reddit and in discord channels, 3) Pray. The game does not give you any way to motivate the player, it does not even have basic MMO elements, basing colonization on interaction with players is complete nonsense, since there is simply no skeletal base and working tools for this in the game. Oh yeah, in three days they brought me as much as 2.5k alloys. Do I need to say that it is easier to just spit and score everything yourself, and even better to abandon the whole idea of colonization at all?

P.S: "Ask someone nicely" is not a reasonable game design decision