Mining - Am I alone feeling it's unbalanced/not quite working?
- Thread starter NeilF
- Start date
I meant that the new exotic ore types are only found in the cores. I would like to see smaller amount of these new ore types in the subsurface (similar concentrations, but just 1 - 3 t perhaps), surface (1 t or so per node), and even "legacy" occurrences (rare, and then < 1%) as well. As far as I know we can still find the new ore types outside the hot spots.
Shttps://youtu.be/2cuYP6jPmE4 heres how the new mining should look
To save me the watch, did you use the PWA for anything other than finding the next motherlode? :S
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That was @picommander, my phone messed up the quoting.
I like it.
Yes there is a general "best" tool and strategy, and it's the most entertaining one for a change. There are a handful of other tools you can bring along, if you have the space, for a bit of variety and the occasional edge case where they seem worthwhile. To me that's realistic.
Not everything has to be obsessively, fastidiously "balanced" in terms of numbers. There's something to be said for there being an actual best strategy you can learn. Some things in life are this way too.
And credits aren't everything. Some folk like the zen approach of the mining laser (still the only way you can get materials from an asteroid), and I really enjoy the displacement minigame, so I'll do that sometimes just because it's fun.
Yes there is a general "best" tool and strategy, and it's the most entertaining one for a change. There are a handful of other tools you can bring along, if you have the space, for a bit of variety and the occasional edge case where they seem worthwhile. To me that's realistic.
Not everything has to be obsessively, fastidiously "balanced" in terms of numbers. There's something to be said for there being an actual best strategy you can learn. Some things in life are this way too.
And credits aren't everything. Some folk like the zen approach of the mining laser (still the only way you can get materials from an asteroid), and I really enjoy the displacement minigame, so I'll do that sometimes just because it's fun.
Well, it wasn't just that it was missing a core, but the "high yield" surface deposits were two (2) only and of very cheap stuff. And even the regular mining based on the prospector limpet wasn't that much either. So the question still is, if the rock is just as bad as a low yield rock of normal type, then why is it yellow and even bright yellow?
The only thing I could tell is that it was one of the rock types (3d model) that usually have cores or high yield. The algorithm FDev is using must be that the same 3d model rocks always shine up yellow, but then it's randomized what they contain, and based on highly exploited an area is, the percentage goes down. I just think the rocks should shine yellow if they don't have anything of value.
Yes. I do. That's how I found them before. Visual first, but I have bunches of low and medium yellows, and extremely few high yellow in this area (a void opal hotspot), and even the medium yellow have very little on them.
Yesterday, I had bad luck at first, then it turned and got better, and today it's bad luck again.
My problem isn't so much if an area is depleted or the RNG percentage has gone down, but that the yellow really doesn't mean anything in those areas. One way of knowing if an area has been somewhat depleted would be if the yellow was related to the content and not to the model. It's misleading right now.
It's a very crappy scanner. It scans the shape, essentially of the rock, not the content. FDev should rework the scanner so it actually would mean high-yield of some kind when it is yellow. It doesn't have to be a core, but it shouldn't be water (as one of them was).
If the yellow was accurate, then it would be useful as an indicator of a depleted zone. Right now, I don't see it doing it.
Well, it doesn't make sense. How would it calculate probability and from what? It's a scanner to scan for deposits. If the rocks it mark don't have it, it's not a great scanner.
Yeah. I don't. I think it needs tweaking.
But they won't do anything if we all agree it's the bestest thing ever and doesn't need change. The only reason why they would fix something is if players point out a problem.
Right now, I think there is a problem. It could be better. Mining is a lot more fun than it used to be, but the scanner needs to mean something. The only thing I can tell it's telling me is what kind of rock it is (based on 3d model) and not it's potential content. And I have no problem with patience, since I'm just trying to make some quick credits before going on DW2 that will last a couple of months. So there's plenty of time for FDev to fix things.
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What is it working on right now? Let's start with that and tweak it.Astro science and quantum physics for instance are working quite a lot with probabilities. But since you are so confident, feel free to explain how the wave scanner is supposed to work and on what technology.
Right now, it's establishing it from the shape of the rock. Let's add that it also count the surface deposits and do a simple chromatography (or spectrogram, whatever it's called, which I did read about in astronomy years ago) to establish primary contents. Also, the scanner can establish if there are cracks already and increase the probability or decrease it if there's not. Those things we most likely could do with current science.
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Starting to realize it's not just the brightness of yellow to look for. Managed to identify false hi-yellows vs core-yellows a few times now, so it's getting easier. Didn't have to do visual on a couple even. I guess I can live with how it works. Just still think it could be improved.
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But it leads me to another question. What about the crack strength v missile strength? Does the yield change depending how it's done?
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Astro science and quantum physics for instance are working quite a lot with probabilities. But since you are so confident, feel free to explain how the wave scanner is supposed to work and on what technology.
In anyway aimed at finding what you'll be interested in finding, instead of find ANYTHING in "HERE'S FD'S SHINY NEW MECHANIC GAMEPLAY." Especially when this leads to asteroid after asteroid after asteroid being prospect and forget...
Ultimately I'd likethe PWA to produce a heat map based on the hot material along with a couple (eg: 3) other logical associated ones too. The heat of an asteroid is the combined total of all of those, irrespective of format (legacy, surface, sub-surface or motherlode).
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Here I am complaining, and suddenly hit the mother load of a void opal rock. Somehow I think how well you manage to blow the rock will affect the yield of the core. This time, I got a large amount of VOs compared to the other times. It took me about 2-2.5 hours to get to full cargo.
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I don't understand how anyone can say they appreciate having more choices when the only choice they are going to make is mother-load opals. What's the point of having choices if you're only going to chose one every time? This problem is everywhere in the ED universe because there's no balance. If there's anything I'd appreciate, it'd be the ability to make different choices without major regret.
I would love to see motherloads have a few less surface deposits, replacing some of them with subsurface deposits, and the ability to actually use mining lasers to finish off the leftover chunks. I'd also like to see mining lasers capable of pulling more mats because surface prospecting has bored me to death. Unit pricing is also in need of balancing. 160 mil for a load is insane.
I would love to see motherloads have a few less surface deposits, replacing some of them with subsurface deposits, and the ability to actually use mining lasers to finish off the leftover chunks. I'd also like to see mining lasers capable of pulling more mats because surface prospecting has bored me to death. Unit pricing is also in need of balancing. 160 mil for a load is insane.
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There are other motherlode contents...
The main issue is (IMHO), because of the bizarre behaviour of the PWA ("here's the new gameplay") and the distribution (or lack of) of really any significant surface and subsurface deposits you're interest in, the default financial mining game play loop is really only motherlode->motherlode->motherlode. Because using the PWA for anything else is almost pointless.
There needs to be far more surface and sub-surface deposits you are interested in. Sub-surface deposits need to be a rewarding find, giving half a dozen fragments or so. And the PWA should highlight based on the hotspot material and I suspect a couple of other logical associated ones based on the hotspot, irrespective of deposit type (legacy, surface, subsurface or motherlode).
So you mine based on the PWA, which stands a good chance of leading you to asteroids you're interested in, making a good income from surface/legacy, and if you're lucky to find sub-surface? Nice! And a motherlode? Great! You can still hunt solely for motherlodes if you wish, but chances are it will be more fruitful to simply mine across the board of mechanics using the PWA's heatmap.
IMHO...
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First - Mining shows some great potential. In truth it's one of the largest and most impressive new additions to the game in years. BUT, IMHO it shows some issues (at least from my experiences with it)...
Note: By all means feel free to disagree or explain where my experience in beta/live is not accurate/correct or is unfair etc. But please do so politely
The Main Gameplay Loop
So you decide you want to mine for a particular materials, or set of valuable materials? You invest your time finding a suitable ring, and you believe this investment is rewarded by finding a suitable hotspot (eg: You find an "Alexandrite" or "Low Temp Diamond" hotspot). You enter the hotspot and mine...
The issue I've repeatedly hit is the balancing of the four mining mechanics:-In my experience mining using the PWA now means:-
- Legacy mining
- Surface deposits
- Sub-surface deposits
- Fissures (motherlode)
The Current Outcome
- Never legacy mining [Everything seems geared/balanced to 2, 3 & 4]
- Finding asteroids with surface deposits generally means finding materials you're simply not interested in, asteroid after asteroid. Indeed, after a while you end up using the analysis view to see surface deposits, and then not even "wasting" a prospector limpet.
- Rarely find sub-surface deposits [To some degree because of 2]
- Ending up simply looking for motherlodes, simply because they do generally give a good return of something you're interested in.
From my current experience, the mining gameplay we have feels questionably balanced. ie: The mechanics and elements put in (for surface, sub-surface and fissures) seems confused in what they're trying to offer. And legacy mining even more so!
Too much time is spent looking for motherlodes, simply due to the poor balancing of the alternative mining mechanics.
And from a personal point of view, it also generally all feels too slow. Surface deposits should be quick and dirty, leading all the way up to seismic charges being careful and considered. But even surface deposits are quite slow mechanic IMHO. [Hence the suggestion to auto-turret them below]
Conclusions - Balance Mechanics
IMHO the mining mechanics should be balanced from the bottom up. ie: You should be finding surface deposits more often then sub-surface, and finding sub-surface far more often than fissures (motherlodes). ie: A motherlode should be a nice bonus, not the be all and end all.
If I've specifically gone to an low temp diamond hotspot, what is the gameplay enjoyment and purpose of most asteroids highlighted by the PWA have surface deposits I'm simply not interested in? It leads to a tiresome slow gameplay outcome.
Conclusions - Legacy Mining
FD need to deside if legacy mining is a thing or not, and balance the game accordingly. Either throw it out and make surface deposits the new norm. Or include legacy mining as the bottom rung of the ladder, included in the gameplay and not ignored by it primarily by the PWA completely ignoring it.
Conclusions - PWA
IMHO the PWA needs to be adjusted in one of three ways. It should not highlight "new mechanics", but instead either:-Note: All these suggestions of course bring legacy mining back into the gameplay loop. eg: If the heat map reports an asteroid has "Alexandrite" (or whatever you're interested in), then it could be there in any one of four forms (legacy, surface, sub-surface or fissure). The heatmap could of course also give some clue as to the form the materials are in on the asteroid. So if you're not interested in legacy mining, the visual queues could let you know that's the form of the asteroid.
- Automatically highlight the presence/quantity of the hotspot's material in asteroids. The more of it, the "hotter" it shows.
- Automatically highlight the presence/quantity of a number of materials including the hotspot's material. The more of them, the "hotter" it shows. This list of materials could vary slightly, and be listed as say the X most similar materials in the ring in the ring information? Thus in a Painite Hotspot, Gold or Palladium may also show in the heatmap.
- You're able to program the PWA, ticking a list of materials you want it to "heat map" - IMHO this is not "aa easy win" because if you search solely for one material (eg: Ice Diamonds) you will be doing far more searching than mining, and may well be missing all the asteroids for example with "Alexandrite" in them.
Misc Suggestions/ConsiderationsMisc Suggestion - "Gold Rush"
- Combine Subsurface Missile Launcher and Seismic Charge Launcher - Combine them into one module, which then appear as the two different items in firegroups.
- Return a more informative report of efficiency. eg: With sub-surface missiles and seismic charges give a percentage efficiency value.
- Remove legacy mining and put far more surface deposits on asteroids.
- Convert the abrasion blaster into an auto targeting/firing turret (for any surface deposits in line of sight/range), to significantly quicken up the gameplay loop.
Personally I have to say, the Void Opal "gold rush" price mechanics grate with me. The notion of simply upping a commodity price hundreds of percent just feels clunky. Far better to retain a more level and balanced economy, and instead offer some hiked prices periodically as part of a CG or mining mission payouts?
Misc Suggestion - Hotspot Depletion
FD have mentioned repeat mining of a hotspot will deplete it. However, they've not mentioned what this in truth means? eg: Less frequent "Low Temp Diamonds" in such a hotspot? Or simply less fequent motherlodes?
IMHO, depletion needs a clear value reported in the system information informing the CMDR how the mining in a hotspot is going to be affected by its depletion. eg: If its "Reserves" are at 100% then clearly it will be behaving as well as it can. But if it's at 50% might that mean you're only half as likely to find "Low Temp Diamonds" in such a hotspot
And should depletion affect just the frequency of motherlodes? Or the frequency of the hotspots material? eg: If a Low Temp Diamonds hotspot is at 50% should that mean you'll be half as likely to find low temp diamonds in any/all forms (legacy, surface, sub-surface and fissure)?
And how quickly does this depletion regenerate?
I want to throw out your whole opinion piece just because you're making me do research to understand what 'PWA' is...bro, not everyone spends their life reading about elite to understand the acronyms that pop up...define in a long piece like this the first time.
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I'm not sure who you're talking about. Who said they want choices but then only look for mother-load of opals?
Personally, I didn't do any mining in the new system until last week or so, when I did a wide range of mining of different rocks . No particular goal. This week, I've started to focus on high paying rocks, simply because I'm in a need of extra cash to buy and outfit another ship, and I'm going on a 3 month expedition in a week so there isn't much time before we leave. Two weeks ago I was doing combat and before that different missions. And from fall in 2017 to fall 2018 I was on a 12 month expedition. I think it's the same for most players. We do different things, but we might focus on a single thing at times, like for instance this week, it's been about opals for me. Next week, I might go do more combat because I'm still trying to get my combat rank up.
It's rather hard to make 160 mil, at least for me. I spent 3 hours today and made 80 mil. That's a huge improvement for me to do that compared to before. If some players are skilled enough to do it, why can't they? After all, Elite galaxy is a wild west cowboy world with free market and capitalism.
And being able to have better hints to find certain materials based on a spectrograph chart or whatever, perhaps make it more interesting to do mining missions. I tried one the other day, but gave up. Couldn't find what I was looking for. Not a single rock. Spent hours. If there were tools to help finding stuff, it would be nice. And it's not like the stuff you're looking for has to exist in all rings in all planets, but make you look in different systems to find it, and when you do, it's not days of hunt to get a rock that you need.